Mormon Porn Use Maybe Not As High as Previously Reported

[Wingnut]

Speaking to the issue of use/viewing vs. addiction, go to 1:23 (almost 1:24) in this video.  It's a news story about tells a woman's experience, but that particular few seconds speaks about this topic specifically.  http://www.azcentral.com/videos/news/local/gilbert/2014/04/23/8040355/

[The Folk Prophet]

Whether it be porn or any other sin my view is that we, as members, ought to be less judgmental and more inclined to show sympathy and compassion towards those who are living in sin. Why? Because, believe it or not, every single one of us are living in sin and do we not all beg for mercy, compassion, and acceptance from Heavenly Father? And if we are not begging, do we not at least hope, wish, and wonder if Heavenly Father has mercy and compassion for us?

 

There is a tendency, not universal of course, but a strong tendency in my experience in life for members of the Church to essentially kick the sinner/addict when they are down because they believe they are more righteous than the filthy, perverted porn addict (alcoholic, etc.). I see people in my Ward who are struggling with addictions and I know that in most cases these individuals already feel like crap. They already think they are worthless. They already feel like they aren't worthy to be with members of the Church. So, they don't come to church. They don't participate. They are more inclined to stay away. In some cases their feelings are not justified but in many cases they are because members can and do judge them. What these people need are not overreactions and people preaching to them how horrible they are or how horrendous their actions are (they already know or feel that). What they need is to feel compassion. To know that they are loved and accepted, despite their sins. This is what I want the people I know in my ward who are struggling with addictions to know. I want them to know that its okay to have weaknesses and still come to church. That is what church is for. It is for the weak and the wicked. Come and be with us. We love you. We want you to be healed. Come get strength from joining with those who are struggling just like you are, albeit with maybe different sins and different trials, but we are still relying on the Atonement of Jesus Christ and are begging for mercy like you. I may have a testimony of the gospel and I know the atonement is real but I don't have everything figured out.

 

-Finrock

 

So, as a matter of interest, do you really think there is universal judgment by the church members, or do you think that perhaps it is more a perception of universal judgement by those feeling judged. I say this in that I have been on both sides of the coin, many times. I have felt judged, and I have been accused of judging. In most cases where I am accused of judging I am, actually, quite empathetic, having experienced sin and the begging for mercy (rather consistently, I might add).

 

It is my view that the church, at large, does much less judging than it is accused of, and that the perception of judgment is significantly higher than the reality. Accordingly there is a defensive response that is excessively nonproportional to the problem.

[Finrock]

Good Afternoon The Folk Prophet. I hope you've been well!

 

So, as a matter of interest, do you really think there is universal judgment by the church members, or do you think that perhaps it is more a perception of universal judgement by those feeling judged. I say this in that I have been on both sides of the coin, many times. I have felt judged, and I have been accused of judging. In most cases where I am accused of judging I am, actually, quite empathetic, having experienced sin and the begging for mercy (rather consistently, I might add).

 

It is my view that the church, at large, does much less judging than it is accused of, and that the perception of judgment is significantly higher than the reality. Accordingly there is a defensive response that is excessively nonproportional to the problem.

 

As I stated in my post, there is a tendency, NOT universal, but a strong tendency in my experience in life for members of the church to essentially kick the sinner/addict when they are down. When it comes to porn, in particular, this tendency is the strongest.

 

Case in point, the fact that you do not believe, not even for a second, that porn addiction in many, if not most cases, is not a matter of sex but rather a means of coping with stress is an all too common attitude which does not leave a lot of room for compassion and sympathy when it comes to the porn addict. The porn addict is misunderstood and many implications are made about them when the reality is far more complex than just someone who is a perverted, selfish, sinner.

 

-Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

Good Afternoon The Folk Prophet. I hope you've been well!

 

 

As I stated in my post, there is a tendency, NOT universal, but a strong tendency in my experience in life for members of the church to essentially kick the sinner/addict when they are down. When it comes to porn, in particular, this tendency is the strongest.

 

Case in point, the fact that you do not believe, not even for a second, that porn addiction in many, if not most cases, is not a matter of sex but rather a means of coping with stress is an all too common attitude which does not leave a lot of room for compassion and sympathy when it comes to the porn addict. The porn addict is misunderstood and many implications are made about them when the reality is far more complex than just someone who is a perverted, selfish, sinner.

 

-Finrock

 

You have a black-and-white view (which is typical) of judgment. I can see porn addiction as selfish and perverted without seeing is as "just" selfish and perverted. Judging a sin to be a sin does not counter everything else. I pay my tithing. That's good. I also have too much debt. That's bad. I can judge that my debt is bad and my tithe paying as good. Most people can. I don't believe that people are quite as simplistic in their judgments as you are making them out to be. *shrug* I could be wrong, of course, but my experience is that most people, when you get to know them, understand quite well that nobody is perfect, and that the fact that a person is bad with money does not define them, or that a person who views porn has nothing else good about them.

 

The fact that I don't buy that guys are looking at porn because they're coping with stress rather than for prurient reasons does not mean I see them as nothing but pervs.

 

Yes, though, I do see your point. There is a level of "that guy's a ____________" (whatever sin you know of that guy) that worsens as the sin worsens. We are more likely to define a pedophile as nothing more than a pedophile than we are to define a non-tithe payer as nothing but a non-tithe payer. But this is not a church culture thing. This is a people thing. People outside the church do it to. They simple don't define all things as wrong that we do. But the things they do define as wrong...same problem. That guy's a thief. That guy's a pedophile. That guy's a tax evader. Etc.  It's not a church culture problem, and it is not something that should be blamed on the church or on church culture. And the solution to it is certainly not to downplay the severity of something like pornography.

[slamjet]

A few weeks ago I spoke with a person about being a facilitator in the Pornography Addiction Support Group (PASG) in the ARP program and she couldn't really get why anyone is addicted to porn.  I tried to explain and she said "oh, so they're weird."  Without a thought I replied "they're not weird, they're broken."

 

A few nights ago I spoke with one person who couldn't understand why married men had pornography problems.  He figured that since they have a wife to have sex with, then that should take care of the problem.  Without a thought I replied "it's not about curbing a sexual desire, it's about control."

 

I get where many will say that they don't understand the anxiety with pornography, many view it out of curiosity.  The issue comes when it is viewed as a way to comfort and/or control an emotional reaction either from trauma or the stress of life.  So then they view it and, like any other drug, they get desynthesized to what they're seeing.  This desynthesization reaches out into objectifying the target of their sexual inclination.  When that happens, empathy is gone and they allow pornography to dictate to them how to view and interact with others as well as give them permission to act what can be deemed inappropriate and destructive.

 

So I would ask that if someone does ask for help with a pornography issue, don't dismiss it because they have come to a realization that its no longer a harmless curiocity or fantacy but it has grabbed hold of them and made them powerless to properly deal with relationships and life's stresses.

[andypg]

This reminds me of the oft quoted study on Catholics and birth control that says 98% of Catholic women are on birth control. The actual poll said, "Have used" so the woman could have originally taken it in the past and then have a change of heart or be a convert and not used it since her conversion but since she has used it in the past said yes. It was touted to attack the Catholic Church.

 

This one seems like a better study than the previous one. I'm personally glad to hear it!

[Drpepper]

What Quin has said is true.  There are countless men outside of the LDS culture who view pornography, perhaps even regularly, and they are able to function normally in society and have normal, healthy, marital relationships.

Wow, this is a massive assumption. You mean because viewing a little porn at night hasn't destroyed the relationship immediately that everything is normal and healthy.... Pornography has no boundaries. Families of all races, beliefs, religion and cultures are being slowly unstitched by this addiction. LDS members can often appear to unravel quicker than others because the addiction is often associated with the breaking of eternal covenants. The church is so concerned about pornography that it has even published a website dedicated to overcoming the addiction.

[SpiritDragon]

While it is not our place to judge other's sins, we all have our weaknesses, it is our place to stand for truth and righteousness. The saviour taught that he that looketh on a women to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. If that isn't a lesson on the severity of pornography, well call me confused. Of course this warning also carries weight with fully clothed modest women as well as those who are just a mouse-click away, because it is based on how a man thinks within himself.

 

I can agree that pornography is not always about sex, it can be like a comfort food is to someone on the diet rollercoaster... as it can bring a self-loathing and actually loses any pleasure or excitement that once existed it simply becomes some kind of misguided coping mechanism. 

 

I have doubts however that pornography use ever starts out having nothing to do with sex and lust. Boyhood curiosity is natural but it is satiable, but when boyhood curiosity has the propellant of lust added in it becomes insatiable; a dangerous combination. Just like alcoholics never know before they take the first drink if they will become alcoholics pornoholics are in the same boat, it is safest to simply not take that first drink or first glance and never find out if it is addictive to you.

[The Folk Prophet]

While it is not our place to judge other's sins, 

 

This is an oversimplification of what we are and are not to do. The scriptures teach a much richer concept of judgment than a platitude ("Judge not"). In point of fact, we are taught that we should judge, but righteously. Of course we have to understand that there is variety in the meaning of judgment, even scripturally, We are meant to judge in terms of assessment, choice, action, feelings, thoughts, etc. We are not meant to judge in terms of condemnation, hatred, bitterness, arrogance, etc.. Concerning the first, we cannot "not" judge. Not judging requires a judgment. Closing one's eyes in blindness under the generic "judge not" umbrella is not appropriate. We are meant to see, to understand, to choose, to do, to follow, to reprove, to call to repentance, to succor, etc., etc. These things all require judgment.

 

I can agree that pornography is not always about sex, it can be like a comfort food is to someone on the diet rollercoaster

 

Pornography is always about sex. I could accept your sentence if you had put the word "all" or something akin. (Pornography is not always all about sex.)

 

Comfort food is still about eating, even if it's not all about eating. Alcoholism is still about, well...alcohol. Pornography is still about sex, even if there are other factors at play. Stress, and the like, may be a trigger. But a trigger is not the core fuel. Moreover, non-loathing, pleasure and excitement are not the defining criteria of what makes something about sex. At it's core, pornography is the depiction of sexual things. There is no separation of sex from it.

[SpiritDragon]

This is an oversimplification of what we are and are not to do. The scriptures teach a much richer concept of judgment than a platitude ("Judge not"). In point of fact, we are taught that we should judge, but righteously. Of course we have to understand that there is variety in the meaning of judgment, even scripturally, We are meant to judge in terms of assessment, choice, action, feelings, thoughts, etc. We are not meant to judge in terms of condemnation, hatred, bitterness, arrogance, etc.. Concerning the first, we cannot "not" judge. Not judging requires a judgment. Closing one's eyes in blindness under the generic "judge not" umbrella is not appropriate. We are meant to see, to understand, to choose, to do, to follow, to reprove, to call to repentance, to succor, etc., etc. These things all require judgment.

 

 

Pornography is always about sex. I could accept your sentence if you had put the word "all" or something akin. (Pornography is not always all about sex.)

 

Comfort food is still about eating, even if it's not all about eating. Alcoholism is still about, well...alcohol. Pornography is still about sex, even if there are other factors at play. Stress, and the like, may be a trigger. But a trigger is not the core fuel. Moreover, non-loathing, pleasure and excitement are not the defining criteria of what makes something about sex. At it's core, pornography is the depiction of sexual things. There is no separation of sex from it.

 

I didn't feel a dissertation on various forms of judgment was necessary given the context of the discussion so far. It seemed to me it was apparent that the judgment being referred to was that judgment concerned with condemnation and company. Of course we need to judge between good and evil, every decision made requires a measure of judgment.

 

As for the "ALL" about aspect of addiction I will have to respectfully disagree. It is about addiction. Satan loves addiction because it is practically a loss of agency. Over-eating, alcoholism, and pornography are addictions first and foremost. Yes over-eating involves food, alcoholism involves alcohol and pornography involves pornography, and yes they come from somewhere. Pornography almost assuredly becomes addictive because of the sexual aspect, but it is also entirely possible for individuals who are addicted to continue the activity even though it brings no perceivable enjoyment whatsoever, they may even lack libido completely but still turn to it, hating themselves for doing so and wondering why they persist when they don't even enjoy it.

 

Going back to the food addiction; Yes it always involves food, but it doesn't follow that it always involves hunger. The same goes for pornography, it always involves pornography, but it doesn't always follow that it is about sex. 

 

In any event we need to be loving and understanding of everyone's weaknesses. This is not to say that we accept the sin, it is always wrong to sin, but we love and accept the sinner and seek to help them find a way out. The only lasting deliverance coming from God.

[The Folk Prophet]

I didn't feel a dissertation on various forms of judgment was necessary given the context of the discussion so far. It seemed to me it was apparent that the judgment being referred to was that judgment concerned with condemnation and company. Of course we need to judge between good and evil, every decision made requires a measure of judgment.

 

I confess a bit of thread-jacking. But I think a clarification of what it means to not judge is always in order, as it seems to be somewhat universally misunderstood, if not by you, then by others perchance reading the thread.

 

As for the "ALL" about aspect of addiction I will have to respectfully disagree. It is about addiction. Satan loves addiction because it is practically a loss of agency. Over-eating, alcoholism, and pornography are addictions first and foremost. Yes over-eating involves food, alcoholism involves alcohol and pornography involves pornography, and yes they come from somewhere. Pornography almost assuredly becomes addictive because of the sexual aspect, but it is also entirely possible for individuals who are addicted to continue the activity even though it brings no perceivable enjoyment whatsoever, they may even lack libido completely but still turn to it, hating themselves for doing so and wondering why they persist when they don't even enjoy it.

 

Going back to the food addiction; Yes it always involves food, but it doesn't follow that it always involves hunger. The same goes for pornography, it always involves pornography, but it doesn't always follow that it is about sex. 

 

I feel like there's a semantic debate coming on here, which is not going to be useful. When it comes down to it, once we worked out all the words and meanings, I'd guess we mostly agree.

 

However, I'd say the whole, no pleasure whatsoever but still turn to it, thing is more rare than common. And that goes for food or porn or what-have-you. Most over-eaters very much enjoy the food. Most porn consumption is based in enjoyment of the media as it relates to libido and sex. I don't think extreme cases should be used as the baseline for understanding.  That being said, I have no statistical studies in hand to back my p.o.v. Of course if I did have them in hand, I would be skeptical of their validity when it comes to pornography. It's just too surrounded by Satan's lies and misdirection to trust much of what even any experts or statistics claim about it. The prevailing world-p.o.v., for example, is that a certain level of porn and MB can actually be healthy.

 

In any event we need to be loving and understanding of everyone's weaknesses. This is not to say that we accept the sin, it is always wrong to sin, but we love and accept the sinner and seek to help them find a way out. The only lasting deliverance coming from God.

 

Double thumbs up.

[MarginOfError]

I've been deliberately slow to reply in this thread because the responses infuriate me.  So let me be extremely blunt, church.  You're talking about things you simply do not understand.  You have had multiple people on here with deep, personal experiences with pornography addiction (and addiction in general) talk about how this isn't about sexual fulfillment, but about control and stress.  You've largely dismissed those statements because you believe that it is about sexual fulfillment.

 

Here's a newsflash for you.  If you want to know what it is that drives people to use pornography, talk to the people that are driven to use it.  They generally have a far better understanding of what motivates them to turn to porn than someone who has been fortunate enough to escape its bitter clutches.

 

Pornography use and especially pornography addiction is very much like nicotine addiction.  It takes the typical smoker over 12 attempts to give up cigarettes.  Do they enjoy smoking?  Yes and no.  People who want to give up smoking enjoy the feeling they get when they are smoking, but they hate that they can't give it up.  Without the drug, they are irritable, more stressed, have trouble concentrating.  When they have the nicotine in their systems, they are calm and more focused.  The continue to smoke because the short term craving for the calm and stress management consumes their will for the long term benefits they objectively know come from a smoke free lifestyle.  

 

Simply put, they haven't mastered their cravings.  They haven't bridled their passions.  It's incredibly hard for them to master these cravings because it means giving up peace of mind for so long while the mind and body retrain themselves.

 

I get why the church speaks so harshly against pornography.  It's far easier to go without it if you never get started on it.  And while the rhetoric around avoiding it is correct (SpiritDragon was correct when saying that it starts out as a sexual curiosity), by the habitual use is established, the motivations are no longer the same.

 

Which is why it concerns me that the LDS dialog around pornography is full of descriptions of covenant breaking, filth, and the jeopardized exaltation.  But pornography use is no more condemning to a person's soul than tobacco use, coffee use, alcohol use, or profanity.  Yet, pornography use is the only one that gets reviled so strongly.

 

The net effect of all this vitriol toward pornography is that those most in need of help are afraid to come forward and ask for the help they need.  I'm not joking one bit when I say that I have heard too many women say that they would leave their husbands if they found out he used pornography.  Men who are found out to be pornography users are seen as perverts, deviants, and some leaders will even disqualify them from serving in callings, particularly with youth and children.  Think about what message that sends to someone who is struggling with this challenge.  And then ask yourself this: why don't we treat alcoholic, coffee addicts, and smokers with the same level of disdain.

 

No one here has claimed that it is okay to view pornography.  We've all condemned it.  And yet people still criticize us for "tolerating the sin" because we seek to temper the dialog about it.  This is hurtful to people who are struggling with these addictions.  It's deeply hurtful.  Because the kind of rhetoric we hear over the pulpit is "it's evil evil evil evil EVIL!!!  avoid it!  oh and if you fail repent right away."  It makes it sound like it should be so easy to repent of.  but it just isn't easy.  The difficulty of overcoming these addictions is almost never, ever appreciated in talks against pornography.

 

And then you come in with your "it's always about sex.  food addiction is always about eating" garbage.  Again, try listening to the people that have been experiencing it.  I once watched a show about food addiction and listened to people talk about how they ordered large amounts of food from a drive thru then went to a secluded alley where they could sob while consuming their drug of choice.  It was not about the food.  It was not about the eating.  It was about the emotional and physical reprieve that came about because of the eating.  Habitual pornography use is not about sex.  Sexual release is just the vehicle to get to the emotional and physical reprieve desired.  Until you can learn to separate the vehicle from the desired feeling, you will remain ignorant of what truly motivates the addict.

 

So please.  Just spare us already.

[The Folk Prophet]

I've been deliberately slow to reply in this thread because the responses infuriate me.  So let me be extremely blunt, church.  You're talking about things you simply do not understand.  You have had multiple people on here with deep, personal experiences with pornography addiction (and addiction in general) talk about how this isn't about sexual fulfillment, but about control and stress.  You've largely dismissed those statements because you believe that it is about sexual fulfillment.

 

Here's a newsflash for you.  If you want to know what it is that drives people to use pornography, talk to the people that are driven to use it.  They generally have a far better understanding of what motivates them to turn to porn than someone who has been fortunate enough to escape its bitter clutches.

 

Wherein do you think that anyone unapologetic about the nature of a sin must never have experienced it?

 

You may claim your perception of other's experience and knowledge must be superior to mine. You're free to that opinion. Maybe it's even true. But when you tell me I can't understand something because I haven't experienced it, when in actuality I have experienced it, you quickly lose credibility.

 

So spare me.

[MarginOfError]

Wherein do you think that anyone unapologetic about the nature of a sin must never have experienced it?

 

You may claim your perception of other's experience and knowledge must be superior to mine. You're free to that opinion. Maybe it's even true. But when you tell me I can't understand something because I haven't experienced it, when in actuality I have experienced it, you quickly lose credibility.

 

So spare me.

The problem with the way you speak of these things is not that you are unapologetic, but that you are woefully unempathetic. Which I guess is a really good way to describe the LDS discourse on pornography use. If you truly have experienced the weight of addiction and continue to harbor such an unempathetic position, then in addition to my disdain for your opinions you've earned my pity.

[The Folk Prophet]

The problem with the way you speak of these things is not that you are unapologetic, but that you are woefully unempathetic. Which I guess is a really good way to describe the LDS discourse on pornography use. If you truly have experienced the weight of addiction and continue to harbor such an unempathetic position, then in addition to my disdain for your opinions you've earned my pity.

 

How is my position lacking empathy? I have not diminished the difficulty of freeing oneself from pornography's clutches or whitewashed the power of it's grip. But my empathy or lack thereof doesn't have anything to do with the fact of how sinful it is or is not. A covenant is a covenant and breaking it is breaking it. Stating this to be so has nothing to do with empathy. Stating otherwise would be incorrect. When I viewed pornography (and, let's be clear, this was not a one time thing. I was very much in it's clutches for many years) I was breaking my covenants. The only path back was through sincere, difficult, painful repentance and the power of the Atonement. I understand that and I advocate it. This viewpoint is not a lack of empathy.

 

What about my opinion that porn use is ultimately about sex upsets you? It's more shameful for it to be about sex than it is to be just about a general lack of control? If we agree that it's not okay to view pornography, wherein is there such contempt towards whether it's about sex or not? Is that view harming people. How so?

 

Say I acquiesce entirely to your argument. Let's say it's driven by stress. Okay. So...now what? Someone addicted to porn now feels better about themselves? Repentance is easier? What's the great battle won there? You're response is as if you're standing up against the wicked lies of the enemy horde. It's a bit melodramatic really. The whole driven by sex or not thing is really quite irrelevant, and because I believe it to be so doesn't really mean much. So why does this infuriate you?

[MarginOfError]

How is my position lacking empathy? I have not diminished the difficulty of freeing oneself from pornography's clutches or whitewashed the power of it's grip. But my empathy or lack thereof doesn't have anything to do with the fact of how sinful it is or is not. A covenant is a covenant and breaking it is breaking it. Stating this to be so has nothing to do with empathy. Stating otherwise would be incorrect. When I viewed pornography (and, let's be clear, this was not a one time thing. I was very much in it's clutches for many years) I was breaking my covenants. The only path back was through sincere, difficult, painful repentance and the power of the Atonement. I understand that and I advocate it. This viewpoint is not a lack of empathy.

 

So far you've done nothing but describe your unapologetic approach to sin.  You haven't actually addressed the empathy charge at all.

 

 

What about my opinion that porn use is ultimately about sex upsets you? It's more shameful for it to be about sex than it is to be just about a general lack of control? If we agree that it's not okay to view pornography, wherein is there such contempt towards whether it's about sex or not? Is that view harming people. How so?

 

Why exactly is it more shameful because it's about sex?  Is coffee addiction also more shameful if it's about coffee?  Is video game addiction more shameful if it's about addiction?

 

 

 

Say I acquiesce entirely to your argument. Let's say it's driven by stress. Okay. So...now what? Someone addicted to porn now feels better about themselves? Repentance is easier? What's the great battle won there? You're response is as if you're standing up against the wicked lies of the enemy horde. It's a bit melodramatic really. The whole driven by sex or not thing is really quite irrelevant, and because I believe it to be so doesn't really mean much. So why does this infuriate you?

 

Because it's the same principle as giving someone cough syrup to treat their tuberculosis.

[The Folk Prophet]

So far you've done nothing but describe your unapologetic approach to sin.  You haven't actually addressed the empathy charge at all.

 

Sure I did. Here's the part that addressed it: "...difficult, painful repentance..."

 

Why exactly is it more shameful because it's about sex?  Is coffee addiction also more shameful if it's about coffee?  Is video game addiction more shameful if it's about addiction?

 

I think you missed the question mark at the end of my sentence.

 

Because it's the same principle as giving someone cough syrup to treat their tuberculosis.

 

What are you accusing my "cough syrup" to be? Because as I re-read through my posts with your accusations in mind, the only medicine I've suggested is the Atonement and repentance.

[slamjet]

It's more shameful for it to be about sex than it is to be just about a general lack of control?

 

Well, if it was all about sex then it would be easy to deal with.  But it's not about sex.

 

If it was about a person's inability to control themselves, then it would be easy, but it's not about discipline.

 

But hey, if you haven't had experience with addiction then you wouldn't know how it works.  We get group leaders in our ARP group who think it's about sex and self discipline until they get to know the participants and hear their stories and experiences.  Then their eyes open and they see that it's much, much more than the superficial sex and discipline answers.

 

So I hope that you wouldn't go to a person who has an addiction and tell them to "get more self control" because you really are doing them a huge disservice. Just say "boy, that sucks" and "good luck" and leave it at that.

[The Folk Prophet]

Well, if it was all about sex then it would be easy to deal with.  But it's not about sex.

 

If it was about a person's inability to control themselves, then it would be easy, but it's not about discipline.

 

But hey, if you haven't had experience with addiction then you wouldn't know how it works.  We get group leaders in our ARP group who think it's about sex and self discipline until they get to know the participants and hear their stories and experiences.  Then their eyes open and they see that it's much, much more than the superficial sex and discipline answers.

 

So I hope that you wouldn't go to a person who has an addiction and tell them to "get more self control" because you really are doing them a huge disservice. Just say "boy, that sucks" and "good luck" and leave it at that.

 

I have never once said it was simply about self-control or discipline or that it was just about sex. If you are going to take the things I say and build strawmen out of them we are guaranteed miscommunication.

[slamjet]

I have never once said it was simply about self-control or discipline or that it was just about sex. If you are going to take the things I say and build strawmen out of them we are guaranteed miscommunication.

 

I'll admit to not reading all your post, just your last few and that was the impression I got.  If I got it wrong, I apologize.

[MarginOfError]

Sure I did. Here's the part that addressed it: "...difficult, painful repentance..."

 

What you've expressed is more like sympathy.  You've not expressed an understanding of what makes habitual porn users return to porn.  You've not expressed an understanding of what makes any addict return to their addiction.  Empathy is a lot more than "I know what it feels like."  It's developing a connection that allows you to understand what another is feeling, what motivates them, and then to articulate that back to them.

 

 

I think you missed the question mark at the end of my sentence.

 

Then the answer to your question is no.  It isn't about the shame.  It's about understanding the root of the problem and addressing the actual problem, not the manifestation of the problem.

 

 

 

What are you accusing my "cough syrup" to be? Because as I re-read through my posts with your accusations in mind, the only medicine I've suggested is the Atonement and repentance.

 

The cough syrup is irrelevant to the analogy.  What is relevant is you are determined to treat the symptom and not the illness.  (to be clear, the sex aspect is the symptom...the lack of control is the illness)

 

I'll admit to not reading all your post, just your last few and that was the impression I got.  If I got it wrong, I apologize.

 

I have the same interpretation as you do.  So if you're wrong, you're not alone.

[The Folk Prophet]

What you've expressed is more like sympathy.  You've not expressed an understanding of what makes habitual porn users return to porn.  You've not expressed an understanding of what makes any addict return to their addiction.  Empathy is a lot more than "I know what it feels like."  It's developing a connection that allows you to understand what another is feeling, what motivates them, and then to articulate that back to them.

 

The fact that we disagree will never allow you to see my point of view as empathetic. I sure don't see you as empathetic to my experiences. Does that mean you lack empathy for everyone? Of course not. No one is capable of perfect empathy but the Savior. Therefore, we can only turn to Him for the full measure of how to deal with these things. He has given us His way. Part of that way is that we are to declare repentance. We are to repent ourselves. We are to come unto Him and follow Him. So even if you were absolutely correct and I had no empathy whatsoever, it would not matter as long as I adhere to gospel truths and urge others to do the same.

 

Then the answer to your question is no.  It isn't about the shame.  It's about understanding the root of the problem and addressing the actual problem, not the manifestation of the problem.

 

Correct. The answer to my question is no. It isn't about the shame. Sin is sin whether one feels shame or not.

 

You are reading a lot into what I have said, so I will try to be more clear. I am not, nor have I ever said that it is only driven by sex. What I contest is that it is not about sex as well. I believe that to disassociate it entirely from sex is denying a part of what it is. In treating the problem, the reality has to be addressed. That reality does include things beyond sex. And it can include a myriad of other individual issues dependent on the person and personality. But it always includes sex. Just as overeating always includes food. A denial of this is not helpful. When breaking an addictive pornographic habit it is particularly important to understand the relationship it has to the libido. Even years later that libido can drive one who is not keenly aware and keenly holding their guard up to slip. If it were simply about lack of control, addictions would cross over one another. They do not. Very, very disciplined people in all other aspects of their lives can have serious addictions where they have very little control. That lack of control is focused on something. In the case of pornography, that focus is sex.

 

This viewpoint does not mean I lack empathy, am forcing others into shame, or that it's leading me to prescribe treatments that are wrong. It is merely a viewpoint.

 

There are two issues of debate here:

 

1. Is sex (by which I mean prurient interest) a part of pornography addiction?

 

My opinion is, yes, it is. But I don't feel particularly strongly about being right on this. If there are issues at hand that I do not understand, I can accept that. It's not important.

 

2. Is the church and it's members' general discourse on pornography misguided and potential harmful?

 

This I feel stronger about. I stand in defense of the church's approach. And the church stands strongly in defense of the scriptures and revelations from God. I feel on safe ground here.

 

If you're going to be mad at me about something, at least 2 makes a lot more sense. I don't care that deeply about 1 (other than not being misunderstood and having false statements and concepts attributed to me).

 

The cough syrup is irrelevant to the analogy.  What is relevant is you are determined to treat the symptom and not the illness.  (to be clear, the sex aspect is the symptom...the lack of control is the illness).

 

I am saying that the treatment I am prescribing (repentance through the Atonement) is sufficient whether the illness is sex or whether the illness is lack of control. Either way, I'm going with the same tonic.

 

I have the same interpretation as you do.  So if you're wrong, you're not alone.

 

Maybe you need to re-read my posts with less bias and anger then.

[Finrock]

I'm going to be very open in this post. Please forgive the bluntness if it offends you.

My first memory of pornography use was when I was five years old. My grandmother exposed me to the pornographic material so she could "teach me" when she sexually abused me. Growing up I was regularly viewing pornography. As I got older (10-11 years old) almost any time I was hanging out with my stepdad it would include us sitting down and watching some porn films he had or viewing magazines. He would show me all sort of pornographic material.

Was my reason for viewing porn about sex?

As an adult I struggled with feelings of worthlessness, loneliness, and despair. I would have feelings of anxiety. I would have bouts of depression. My medicine was viewing pornography and masturbating. I struggled with this cycle for years and years. I hated myself. I felt horrible every time I would view and masturbate. I would try to stop but I was ignorant of my own issues and what was driving me. I kept blaming myself for being a pervert. That I was just a worthless sexual deviant. My wife felt betrayed and devastated. She was scared that I was a pedophile and that I would eventually begin killing women (seriously). She thought she wasn't good enough for me. She thought I was doing it because I didn't find her attractive or that I wanted other women. She was wrong. I couldn't make her understand that she was wrong. I gave up trying and so that I wouldn't hurt her I didn't ever want to speak to her about it. When I would fail, again, I wouldn't speak to my wife about it because I just didn't want to be kicked while I was down. I already knew how horrible it was. I already knew that I was a loser (or so I thought). But I also knew that I didn't look at pornography and masturbate because my wife was not good enough or that I wanted other women. I was not a pedophile. I wasn't going to kill somebody. I didn't abuse my children. I didn't want to have sex with other women.

Finally I came to realize that what happened to me as a child was wrong and that I wasn't to blame for it. I finally began to realize that the reason I was doing these things was because of the distress, anxiety, and stress that I was feeling inside. My way of coping with these things through pornography was just a natural and inevitable extension of my childhood. When I view pornography there was a rush that helped me deal with my feelings. It was an escape. During that time a fire would consume me and I couldn't stop until that fire was extinguished.

Here is the truth:

Every sin will keep us from the Celestial Kingdom. We ought to warn people to stay away from porn because it can become a trap that is difficult to escape from. When I found out my son looked at some risqué images I didn't condemn him to hell or freak out or get irrational fears or think that all was lost. I did rant and rave about how horrible it was. I didn't preach to him that he is a sinner. I knew that he already felt horrible. I taught him about repentence with gentleness and with empathy. I told him it isn't the end of the world. He isn't a special class of sinner and worse than others. I told him that he can repent and he can have peace. I warned him about the dangers of pornography and giving in to lustful thoughts. I continue to teach him and help him to make good decisions.

In the end we are all full of sin. If anyone denies this because they don't struggle with pornography or some other more "serious" sin they are delusional and fooling themselves. It is easy to say that I may judge another because my sins (supposedly) aren't as bad as theirs but that is a mistake and a precarious position to take and it is utterly useless in almost all cases insofar as helping those who are struggling with addictions. Viewing pornography is NOT the end of the world. It does not make someone more sinful than those who only commit so called "little sins". This is another lie from the adversary. Viewing pornography is no more breaking a covenant than making unrighteous judgments are or not showing empathy and kindness towards the sinners of the world. EVERY SIN YOU COMMIT MAKES YOU A COVENANT BREAKER, PERIOD. POINTING OUT THAT PORNO USERS ARE COVENANT BREAKERS AND ARE SINNERS IS SPECIAL PLEADING AND HYPOCRITICAL. I can guarantee that those who make such statements are sinners just as I am.

The Church deals with pornography in the correct way. Many church members do not. Many lay leaders do not. It is my experience that church members treat pornography and pornography addicts with an undue level of judgmentalism because they are filled with inaccurate and false notions. There is a large level ignorance when it comes to this subject matter and it is manifest on these boards and in the wards and branches that I have been a part of. This is a fact because it is my experience. There is an undue amount of special pleading. I have talked to many other members who have struggled with pornography issues who have experienced the same judgmentalism, ostracism, and misunderstanding from wives, members, and leaders as I have. This is not universal and it isn't in every case. I have also experienced the opposite. Right now I happen to live in a wonderful ward and stake with a bishop and a stake president who haven't kicked me when I was down or treat me as if I had leprosy. Because of their love, empathy, and genuine concern for me (without guile) I have been able to get help and truly be free of my addiction to pornography. My wife has been able to get help to understand what has driven my addiction. She now knows the truth about pornography addiction. I can go to her and freely speak about my issues without her giving in to unfounded and irrational fears.

These are my experiences and they are true.

-Finrock

[Traveler]

I am not informed enough on this particular subject to address specific elements.  But I have been a student of human nature and it seems to me that in general we have the impression that whatever our individual weaknesses are that we tend to excuse and diminish whatever they are as well as exaggerate our individual strengths.  At the same time we tend to exaggerate the weaknesses of others and diminish their individual strengths.  I observe this in myself as well as others.

 

I have observed, both with myself and others that we often tend to think of those that enable our views to diminish our weaknesses and exaggerate our strengths as friendly and helpful and those that exaggerate our weaknesses and diminish our strengths as our enemies and hostel to us.   I am not sure this is the best way to develop strong character and become a positive element in a secure social structure.  We often say things like have courage to stand for the right and do not sacrifice morals for friendships.  Unless someone is standing up against something we are doing – even if we know and admit that what we are doing is wrong – we still think that anyone that criticizes and opposes us is our enemy and someone that we should not trust.

 

I believe that what we are doing is not as important as the trend we are setting by what we are doing.  Thus it would seem to me that if someone is viewing pornography is not the real issue.  The problem is whether or not they are reinforcing and building upon making pornography (or whatever) part of their default (disciplined) behavior or if they are trending away from such activity as something done regularly.  The way we change is by making the exception in our life more common.  Since we are always changing the more we change the more obvious what we are changing to becomes. 

 

My father would say to me that there are two things necessary to change things.  The first things necessary is that we start doing things we have never done before.  But then he would say that most people fail with this because they do not realize that there is something else necessary for a change to occur.   The second thing is that we must stop doing things we have always done before.  Then he would say that this is the only way to change anything and it is not about getting others to change because that is the greatest mistake of fools that think they can change things but not themselves. 

 

I have followed the advice of my father and found it most useful.  Those that expect others to change to accommodate them will eventually fail in their efforts to change anything.  They can complain that they or their problem is not correctly understood – or that others or too cold or not understanding or not caring or whatever.  It does not matter what outside themselves they can blame – the point is that if they blame anything but themselves they will always in the end fail to change.  The only way to succeed is to take upon responsibility, quit blaming others and change yourself.   The truth is that anyone that assists you in blaming others and not taking responsibility is your real enemy and anyone that assists you in taking responsibility upon yourself for what you do is your real friend.

[The Folk Prophet]

I find it humorous that special pleading is used in order to claim there's a problem of others using special pleading. It goes hand-in-hand with judging others to be judgmental and irrational responses to perceived irrational responses.