Tax = theft?

[2ndRateMind]

So, every so often, as I frequent this forum, I have come across this idea.

 

I'm a European, and, though I'm sure some hard right european extremists  would go along with the concept, most of us know that our taxes pay for defence, legal systems and the rule of law, civil infrastructure such as roads and railways, medical care, education, 'soft power' in the world, libraries, adoption services, and such myriad of facilities, and many other public goods as well.

 

Mostly, we do not regard tax as theft, but as the government sequestering the money it needs to run itself, and provide civil goods no individual could supply for themselves at an economic rate, and, mostly, we regard ourselves to be privileged if we are in a higher tax bracket than the majority of our compatriots.

 

So, how does the idea that tax = theft enter into the American consciousness?

 

Best wishes, 2RM

Edited December 10, 2014 by 2ndRateMind

[Vort]

Straw man. Americans, even those on the political right, do not think that "taxes are theft".

 

Excessive taxation, and especially excessive taxation to fund programs that are not the government's place to fund, is a way to forcibly take money from people under the threat of seizing their property and sending them to jail. Such forcible extortion of money, when done by any other than a government entity, is very obviously a form of theft. So if the government is doing this in a situation where it has no business levying or collecting such a tax, then it's tantamount to theft.

[2ndRateMind]

But do you not have a democracy? Do you you not decide, every four years, what sort of government you will have? Do you not have the right to throw that government out of power, if it decides on a taxation policy you disagree with? How, in this scenario, can tax = theft?

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Guest]

Straw man. Americans, even those on the political right, do not think that "taxes are theft".

 

 

Completely agree.

 

Excessive taxation is fine too - depends on what it is for.  For example, if America ever decides to preserve their economy and maintain the USD as the basis of international currency, they can decide to swallow the extremely bitter pill of their ridiculous debt and pay it through limited excessive taxation.  Or another example... if World War III lands on American soil and to preserve the country's sovereignty and autonomy they have to spend 20x more on the military and pay for it through limited excessive taxation...

 

What is criminal is Vote-buying Taxation.

 

When Marcos ran for re-election in 1986, my job was to staple money to a ballot... it was highly illegal, of course.  But, this is no different than the American politican's promises to "tax the rich" so they can get the votes of the poor... or promising to extend the unemployment pay... or promising cheap healthcare... etc. etc. etc. that requires either going into debt or raising taxes.... just to buy the vote of that segment of the population.

Edited December 10, 2014 by anatess

[Guest]

But do you not have a democracy? Do you you not decide, every four years, what sort of government you will have? Do you not have the right to throw that government out of power, if it decides on a taxation policy you disagree with? How, in this scenario, can tax = theft?

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

You're not listening.  Nobody here agrees that Tax = Theft.

[Vort]

What is criminal is Vote-buying Taxation.

 

When Marcos ran for re-election in 1986, my job was to staple money to a ballot... it was highly illegal, of course.  But, this is no different than the American politican's promises to "tax the rich" so they can get the votes of the poor...

 

What a frightening prospect and bitter pill this is.

[Guest]

What a frightening prospect and bitter pill this is.

 

Unfortunately, you're living it.

[Vort]

But do you not have a democracy? Do you you not decide, every four years, what sort of government you will have? Do you not have the right to throw that government out of power, if it decides on a taxation policy you disagree with? How, in this scenario, can tax = theft?

 

You perhaps missed the first sentence of my original reply.

 

But your idea is faulty. Even if we elect representatives to govern us, that does not mean that anything they do is therefore moral and legitimate. Investing them with authority to act does not make their actions acceptable, any more than investing police with authority legitimizes police corruption.

 

Seriously, this is so obvious that I don't understand why it has to be said. Do you honestly believe that any action taken by a representative government is by definition moral?

 

Consider Obama's implementation of forced mandatory health insurance. He said it was not a tax, He promised it was not a tax. He vehemently denied that it was in any possible sense a tax. Then, when his implementation was legally challenged, his administration's argument was that it was justified because...

 

...it was a tax.

 

And the Supreme Court agreed.

 

So Obama implemented a tax by promising it was in no sense a tax. Whether or not this was legal, do you not see how this could be considered immoral, and thus a form of theft?

 

If not, then you lack either the desire or the ability to see from any perspective other than your own.

[2ndRateMind]

You're not listening.  Nobody here agrees that Tax = Theft.

 

 

I'm listening. I'm just waiting for the tax = theft brigade to poke their heads above the parapet. They are here, to be sure. Question is, can they justify their position, when the spotlight is on it?

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Guest]

I'm listening. I'm just waiting for the tax = theft brigade to poke their heads above the parapet. They are here, to be sure. Question is, can they justify their position, when the spotlight is on it?

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

Okay, I'll humor this one...

 

The only people that say this in the US are those who are talking about Tax used for Vote-Buying.  Therefore, Tax=Theft if the Tax is used to buy votes.  You can replace "redistribution of wealth" for "vote buying".  In American politics, they're one and the same.

 

Case in point - the ones who are yelling the loudest against taxes in the US is the TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Party.  Majority of the TEA Party members are the strongest proponents of the American Military - they will yell just as loudly if funding to the Military is cut or reduced.  Therefore, they have no problem paying Taxes to fund the military.

 

Do you understand that at least?

Edited December 10, 2014 by anatess

[yjacket]

You're not listening.  Nobody here agrees that Tax = Theft.

Speak for yourself . . .  I do believe that taxes = theft :-).

And yes many on the hard-right do believe taxes = theft.

 

I don't have time to really get into it, but simply.

 

1) Who owns my money, does the government own it or do I own it.  Did the government earn it or did I earn it.

If the government earned it then they can tell me what to do with it.  I happen to believe I earned it and therefore the government does not have the moral right to tell me what do to with my money.

 

2) I voted against taxes yet I still have to pay it, I do not agree with it and therefore it is theft.  Someone is taking my property without my consent or will.  What else would you call it?

 

3) In a simple situation of 5 people trying to pull resources together. They vote and 4 say they should take 1000 from the 5th rich man.  That's theft . . . a bunch of people got together and agreed it was okay to take without consent, but it is still theft.

 

Unfortunately, I don't really have time to expound . . . but believe me I would love to :-). And prob. will later.

[2ndRateMind]

 

Okay, I'll humor this one...

 

...

 

Do you understand that at least?

 

That's ok. Count me as ignorant about the specifics of US politics, just partisan about social justice. I'm quite happy just to sit back, and see where this thread goes.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited December 10, 2014 by 2ndRateMind

[yjacket]

I'm listening. I'm just waiting for the tax = theft brigade to poke their heads above the parapet. They are here, to be sure. Question is, can they justify their position, when the spotlight is on it?

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

Yes, but the question is will you accept it :-).

[Vort]

That's ok. Count me as ignorant about the specifics of US politics, just partisan about social justice.

 

So you freely admit you don't know a thing about the specifics of US politics, but then you want justification for those who object to the specifics of US politics.

 

Do you see a problem here?

[2ndRateMind]

So you freely admit you don't know a thing about the specifics of US politics, but then you want justification for those who object to the specifics of US politics.

 

Do you see a problem here?

 

 

No, not really. Taxation, believe it or not, is a general concern. Despite your parochial comment, the US isn't the only place where people pay taxes, only the richest country in the world, and where (some) people think tax = theft.

 

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Vort]

No, not really. Taxation, believe it or not, is a general concern. Despite your parochial comment, the US isn't the only place where people pay taxes, only the richest country in the world, and where (some) people think tax = theft.

 

Not sure how you think my comment was "parochial". You're the one demanding an explanation of objection to US policy (while simultaneously admitting to complete ignorance of US policy).

[Vort]

Speak for yourself . . .  I do believe that taxes = theft :-).

And yes many on the hard-right do believe taxes = theft.

 

Ah. I stand corrected. But I still maintain that such people are a small minority of the US population, and even of the US political right. The large majority acknowledges the need for and appropriateness of some forms of taxation.

[estradling75]

I have said before Taxes = Theft...  I have said it in very contextually sensitive matter.

 

The context being

 

Person A: "Oh noes we need Moar money to solve problem X.  Higher taxes"

Me: "Really?  What happened to the money that we gave you before that you said would be enough to solve the problem?"

Person A: " oh woes... see the suffering.  We need Moar money to solve problem X.  Tax the Rich!"

Me: "That does not answer my question... But ok how does more money solve it now when it did not before?'

Person A: "You are a cruel, heartless, and greedy person.  Withholding your money... when clearly all we need is Moar money to solve problem X."

Me: "I am not giving you a blank check to my wallet. If I think you have a decent plan. Then we can discuss the amount."

Person A: "I am going to protest, defame your character and repeat myself EVEN LOUDER until we get Moar money to solve problem X."

Me:  "Not from me you are not"

[Guest]

Speak for yourself . . .  I do believe that taxes = theft :-).

And yes many on the hard-right do believe taxes = theft.

 

I don't have time to really get into it, but simply.

 

1) Who owns my money, does the government own it or do I own it.  Did the government earn it or did I earn it.

If the government earned it then they can tell me what to do with it.  I happen to believe I earned it and therefore the government does not have the moral right to tell me what do to with my money.

 

2) I voted against taxes yet I still have to pay it, I do not agree with it and therefore it is theft.  Someone is taking my property without my consent or will.  What else would you call it?

 

3) In a simple situation of 5 people trying to pull resources together. They vote and 4 say they should take 1000 from the 5th rich man.  That's theft . . . a bunch of people got together and agreed it was okay to take without consent, but it is still theft.

 

Unfortunately, I don't really have time to expound . . . but believe me I would love to :-). And prob. will later.

 

You are giving Americans a bad name.  No wonder people like 2RM can't grasp American justice.

 

Taxes does not equal theft.  If it were, then EVERY SINGLE TAX is theft.  So, unless you are completely against the American governing body, you can't possibly believe this.

Edited December 10, 2014 by anatess

[jerome1232]

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/10/50-examples-of-government-waste

I think the sentiment stems from things outlined in that link.

The government in America doesn't need more revenue, it needs to become less wastefull of our money. In that context, yes, taxes are theft.

Edited December 10, 2014 by jerome1232

[Backroads]

I'm just fine with the notion of taxes, the best will being citizens supporting agreed - upon plans for the money.

When the government dictates taxation for taxation ' s sake, that is theft.

[Traveler]

So, every so often, as I frequent this forum, I have come across this idea.

 

I'm a European, and, though I'm sure some hard right european extremists  would go along with the concept, most of us know that our taxes pay for defence, legal systems and the rule of law, civil infrastructure such as roads and railways, medical care, education, 'soft power' in the world, libraries, adoption services, and such myriad of facilities, and many other public goods as well.

 

Mostly, we do not regard tax as theft, but as the government sequestering the money it needs to run itself, and provide civil goods no individual could supply for themselves at an economic rate, and, mostly, we regard ourselves to be privileged if we are in a higher tax bracket than the majority of our compatriots.

 

So, how does the idea that tax = theft enter into the American consciousness?

 

Best wishes, 2RM

 

Taxes can be theft just as someone in an emergency charges exorbitant amounts for good and services to far exceed the value can be seen as theft.   In the USA we charge 6 times in taxes what is necessary to lift all in poverty - out of poverty.  There are records of hammers costing $3,000.00 in tax payers funds.  In England the richest lady in the country lives on welfare check paid for by taxes - and you do not think that is a kind of theft of forced tax funds????

 

Some would argue that the beggar that stands at a corner begging for money claiming to be a homeless veteran of war that in reality is gathering funds from those more "poor" than them selves and that the beggar in reality has a nice home but uses the funds to party every night - is in their lies a thief at heart.

 

I contend that a government officials that take $100 dollars promising to take care of poor and build roads and such that keeps $50 for themselves then gives $25 to their friends and finely gives $10 to poor and $15 to build roads and such things - is indeed both a thief and a lair in their heart and their actions.

[Crypto]

tax = theft when it goes against the collective will of the community. Therefore not all taxes are theft.

 

When a tax levies a greater burden than benefit on a population, If a tax improves the condition of one population at the detriment of another it is tantamount to extortion.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Crypto

[yjacket]

You are giving Americans a bad name.  No wonder people like 2RM can't grasp American justice.

 

Taxes does not equal theft.  If it were, then EVERY SINGLE TAX is theft.  So, unless you are completely against the American governing body, you can't possibly believe this.

 

Taxes is legalized theft, in fact it is worse than theft.

 

If a robber breaks into my house and tries to steal my money, I have the legal and moral right to shot him.

If the government (metaphorically) breaks into my house and I try to prevent them from stealing my money, I go to jail.

 

Taxes != American governing body and yes pretty much every single tax is theft.  If I don't agree with it or refuse it, I go to jail, my life, my liberty and my property are taken from me without my consent.  What else is theft?

 

Now this doesn't mean that some taxes are better or worse than others.  Some are worse than others, for example the gas tax. While I personally see no need for government roads (I think the private sector could provide roads just fine), I don't like it but the amount is relatively trivial-even if I recognize it is a non-voluntary extortion.  But then take property taxes, I absolutely loath them . . . one never truly owns their land if one is continually paying subservience to the state.

 

As for government functions, it should be the absolute bare minimum, courts, police, and not much else.

 

Giving Americans a bad name . . .please talk about hyperbole.

 

Americans have a history of absolutely hating taxes.  Forget taxation without representation, a significant portion of the Founders were smugglers who evaded any taxes.  In the depths of the Revolution, Jefferson as governor of Virginia refused to expropriate supplies from the populace to help fight the war.

[yjacket]

tax = theft when it goes against the collective will of the community. Therefore not all taxes are theft.

 

When a tax levies a greater burden than benefit on a population, If a tax improves the condition of one population at the detriment of another it is tantamount to extortion.

 

So you're telling me that in a community of 100 people if 51 got together and passed a law that the other 49 should have to pay half of their wages to the other 51 that because it is the "collective will" it is not theft?

 

Lol . . . one can cloak it in all the pretense one wants but at the end of the day it breaks down into collective theft.  I've got a great idea, why don't we invite my next door neighbors over and we'll have a vote on who gets my property.  2 votes outweighs one so by the "collective will" my property now becomes theirs.  

 

It's theft, taking what is rightfully mine and claiming it as theirs!