Crypto Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) As I stated before using the temple and reverence isn't relevant to the topic of Sunday School lessons.Lets start with a premise that how and what you learn in the temple is a more perfect way of learning. Do you disagree? (Even if it takes more effort to do so)Temple learning, covenants and ritual revolves around 3* methods of communicating Auditory, Visual, and Kinesthetic. It likely wouldn't be necessary for people to knit, or do other obviously irreverent things, since it already takes into account the weakness of man to more perfectly communicate divine truths.A better comparison would be like knitting, when the teacher asks you to draw a simple picture of the plan of salvation say on the chalk board. In that case IT would be disrespectful an irreverent.I disagree with the fact that knitting or sketching is irreverent. I don't disagree that we are moved upon the the spirit to gain learning and understanding, which should be the focus. I disagree with the fact that preparing people physically according to their limitations would be unhelpful to conducting such a spirit. *(actually more, but i'm going to stick with a simple model of learning) Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Temple learning, covenants and ritual revolves around 3* methods of communicating Auditory, Visual, and Kinesthetic. It likely wouldn't be necessary for people to knit, or do other obviously irreverent things, since it already takes into account the weakness of man to more perfectly communicate divine truths. I never thought of it that way before. Good observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 As I stated before using the temple and reverence isn't relevant to the topic of Sunday School lessons. Stating something doesn't make it true or settle the matter in any regard. But your point is irrelevant to the point. The point being whether it's selfish to tell someone they can or cannot do something in any given setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notquiteperfect Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 TFP, the Elder Oaks quote is good. I'll consider saving my knitting for Sunday School and Relief Society. To me though, knitting is more distracting to the teacher and those around you in SS and RS then in Sacrament Mtg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 To me though, knitting is more distracting to the teacher and those around you in SS and RS then in Sacrament Mtg. That is one opinion. Other people have a different opinion. Many of them have expressed it in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) I never thought of it that way before. Good observation. Perhaps a semi-good observation, except it's fairly exclusive to the endowment, which is only a part of the temple experience. I guess I should be able to knit during initiatory then? :) Lets start with a premise that how and what you learn in the temple is a more perfect way of learning. Do you disagree? Yes. The only more perfect way of learning is through the spirit. And learning by the spirit in Sacrament meeting is every bit as "perfect" as learning in the temple endowment. Moreover, not everyone learns the same (physically speaking) so to imply the temple endowment is a more perfect way of learning would be to imply we all learn the same. We do not. And, frankly, if the temple endowment were a more perfect way, I think most of us would have learned a whole lot more going through it the first time than, say, the first class I took on computer programming. But this is blatantly and obviously not true with a myriad of examples. Upon finishing my first temple endowment I was mostly confused and didn't remember much of anything. To me calling the temple endowment a more perfect way of learning is like calling Isaiah an easy read. It just, plain, simply is not. Heck, I've been through the temple endowment thousands of times and currently work as an ordinance worker and it still confuses me for the most part. Edited January 6, 2015 by The Folk Prophet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notquiteperfect Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that if a teacher has spent a good deal of time preparing a lesson, the least others can do is act interested. Furthermore, I've seen knitters here and there in different wards and my greater concern is always that others will follow suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 That is one opinion. Other people have a different opinion. Many of them have expressed it in this thread. If I understand nqp correctly, it's not an opinion. It's a personal observation. notquiteperfect 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) I don't mind my own business because my fellow man IS my business. I care about them. I care that they actually learn in church, but that they learn as they need to -- by the Spirit. And so I will advocate behavior that is conducive to that end in every case. This is my family's thing! It's what I grew up with. For my family, saying mind your own business is one of the rudest and most disrespectful thing to say. But, I learned in my husband's family that mind your own business is their natural mindset. So, getting involved with my in-laws' stuff requires permission otherwise, it's rude. Yeah, completely opposite from what I knew to be the concept of "communion" or "community" or even just "family". But, I can see how my husband benefits from that mindset... he can easily put his family at arm's length when he doesn't want them to intrude in his life whereas in my family, putting anybody at arm's length is like moving Mount Everest.... Edited January 6, 2015 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notquiteperfect Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 That is one opinion. Other people have a different opinion. Many of them have expressed it in this thread. Yes, and it looks as though the good old "agree to disagree" will need to be applied. Crypto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) Yes, and it looks as though the good old "agree to disagree" will need to be applied. I agree. We (not you and me, but the thread in general) seem to be going in circles. Edited January 6, 2015 by LiterateParakeet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 This is my family's thing! Well, to be fair, I was quasi-stealing-quoting from Dicken's/Marley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 We seem to be going in circles. Well I think there have been several insightful, new thoughts and posts in the last page or so. I'm still learning. Maybe your mind is closed off to the matter. Crypto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crypto Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) My response addressed where you stated "Second", and portions of the rest of what you stated. Exhorting others because you personally find them doing something to be distracting, when it would be helping them would be selfish. It would be disregarding the other person for your own personal gain. Is there limits and exceptions? Absolutely. Exhorting others because you see something as irreverent would be different. https://www.lds.org/topics/reverence?lang=engExhortation, has it's time and place, but considering that when most members exhort they are neither in authority to do so, and often cause contention with such. It would not be reverent nor more conductive to creating a reverent atmosphere. trend to more noise, transitory excitement, and contention and to less restraint and quiet dignity.I'm in no position to judge whether exhortation is done properly, so these were just a few general thoughts on the subject.------------- :Perhaps a semi-good observation, except it's fairly exclusive to the endowment, which is only a part of the temple experience. I guess I should be able to knit during initiatory then? :) The temple experience as a whole. I disagree with this assessment. :) [if you disagree with me on this we are just going to have to agree to disagree I guess.] Yes. The only more perfect way of learning is through the spirit. And learning by the spirit in Sacrament meeting is every bit as "perfect" as learning in the temple endowment. I have already agreed that learning through the spirit is a more perfect way of learning. How ever I think the temple is a special house and place of learning, where there are things that will and can be revealed there that will not be else where. I will admit, that God can and will decide when and where to reveal revelation as he see's fit. And I don't think neglecting intellectual learning in either situation is what God has commanded either and as such they strengthen each other. Maybe your mileage varies from mine. Moreover, not everyone learns the same (physically speaking) so to imply the temple endowment is a more perfect way of learning would be to imply we all learn the same. We do not. I apply this to the whole temple experience. I state that it is a more perfect way of communicating in part because of the inclusion of multiple methods that people learn, We all don't learn the same and so the inclusion of multiple ways of learning make it more accessible to all people, a more perfect way a teaching. That doesn't mean it is a simpler way of communicating. And, frankly, if the temple endowment were a more perfect way, I think most of us would have learned a whole lot more going through it the first time than, say, the first class I took on computer programming. But this is blatantly and obviously not true with a myriad of examples. Upon finishing my first temple endowment I was mostly confused and didn't remember much of anything. To me calling the temple endowment a more perfect way of learning is like calling Isaiah an easy read. It just, plain, simply is not. Heck, I've been through the temple endowment thousands of times and currently work as an ordinance worker and it still confuses me for the most part.Just because something communicates divine truths more perfectly doesn't mean it will be easier to understand. More perfect in how it is communicated, not in the difficulty to understand. You speak to a child differently than an adult. When describing something in simpler terms often the idea will not communicate in it's whole essence, But it may be easier to understand. Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crypto Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 This is my family's thing! It's what I grew up with. For my family, saying mind your own business is one of the rudest and most disrespectful thing to say. But, I learned in my husband's family that mind your own business is their natural mindset. So, getting involved with my in-laws' stuff requires permission otherwise, it's rude. Yeah, completely opposite from what I knew to be the concept of "communion" or "community" or even just "family". But, I can see how my husband benefits from that mindset... he can easily put his family at arm's length when he doesn't want them to intrude in his life whereas in my family, putting anybody at arm's length is like moving Mount Everest....My family comparing my father and mother's sides of the family are like this, just not to as strong an extent as you describe. It's actually kind of interesting now that you've brought it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 My response addressed where you stated "Second", and portions of the rest of what you stated. Exhorting others because you personally find them doing something to be distracting, when it would be helping them would be selfish. It would be disregarding the other person for your own personal gain. Is there limits and exceptions? Absolutely. Exhorting others because you see something as irreverent would be different. https://www.lds.org/topics/reverence?lang=engExhortation, has it's time and place, but considering that when most members exhort they are neither in authority to do so, and often cause contention with such. It would not be reverent nor more conductive to creating a reverent atmosphere. I'm in no position to judge whether exhortation is done properly, so these were just a few general thoughts on the subject. I wonder if anyone here presumes that it's proper to walk up to someone who is knitting in sacrament mtg and reprimand them for it. I don't get the sense that is anyone's position at all. Unless I'm mistaken on that, then you are reading something into our anti-knitting view that is not part of it. On the other hand, if someone posts the question on a public forum, "Is it appropriate to...?", then it's well within the bounds of propriety and authority to reply with an "I don't think it is" answer -- which is the end all of my view on it. :) As to the rest, I fairly well agree with you. I say, "fairly" because I think there is a time and a place (only when moved on by the Spirit and when socially proper) to exhort someone concerning something that bothers you, if only from the point of view that if it bothers you, it may well be bothering others too, and therefore your concern stems from a self-based understanding, but is driven by a selfless concern for others around you. If that makes sense. I agree, however, that generally doing so would be more hurtful than helpful to the overall situation. The temple experience as a whole. I disagree with this assessment. :) [if you disagree with me on this we are just going to have to agree to disagree I guess.] I have already agreed that learning through the spirit is a more perfect way of learning. How ever I think the temple is a special house and place of learning, where there are things that will and can be revealed there that will not be else where. I will admit, that God can and will decide when and where to reveal revelation as he see's fit. And I don't think neglecting intellectual learning in either situation is what God has commanded either and as such they strengthen each other. Maybe your mileage varies from mine. I apply this to the whole temple experience. I state that it is a more perfect way of communicating in part because of the inclusion of multiple methods that people learn, We all don't learn the same and so the inclusion of multiple ways of learning make it more accessible to all people, a more perfect way a teaching. That doesn't mean it is a simpler way of communicating. Just because something communicates divine truths more perfectly doesn't mean it will be easier to understand. More perfect in how it is communicated, not in the difficulty to understand. You speak to a child differently than an adult. When describing something in simpler terms often the idea will not communicate in it's whole essence, But it may be easier to understand. Okay. I can buy into that. Crypto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Crypto and The Folk Prophet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I am glad in real life knitting and crocheting isn't this argumentive at home or in church. Lol!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LiterateParakeet Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 LOL Good point Palerider--there might be blood shed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 LOL Good point Palerider--there might be blood shed!I know some of those needles are big enough to draw blood....Lol NightSG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Why not? Why shouldn't we show the same respect and reverence at church as we do at the temple? When was the last time you stepped on Cheerios during an endowment session? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightSG Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I know some of those needles are big enough to draw blood....Lol Some? Half the reason I learned to knit was so I could carry two big metal spikes into places that wouldn't allow a pocketknife. PolarVortex and Palerider 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Folk Prophet Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 When was the last time you stepped on Cheerios during an endowment session? Really? That's what we're going with to justify irreverence? We're going to use our children to excuse ourselves and despoil the sanctity and solemn nature of the sacrament service? Okay...okay. "Despoil" is going too far. But maybe you should read this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoyoteacher Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Is it too late to officially step away from this thread as the owner? I didn't intend to start any sort of discord, and the last time I'd looked at this page we were sitting at 2 pages of text and now it's up to 8. This is making the non-confrontational tendencies in me really work. Hurrah, anxiety! I've felt the itch to do something with my hands, that's a big part of it. Based on what I'm seeing, I don't think I will be bringing my knitting with me to my small YSA branch. Just_A_Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palerider Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Some? Half the reason I learned to knit was so I could carry two big metal spikes into places that wouldn't allow a pocketknife.It's a hobby in disguise....CCN....Carry and Conceal Needles.....Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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