The state of English poetry in 2015

[Vort]

"Rhyming? That's quaint. Oh, and metered verse? How utterly...passé."

 

Pam's announcement of the LDS.net poetry contest causes me to reflect on poetry in general and the state of English poetry today. Here is my thesis statement:

 

Poetry per se is in the worst state it has ever been in throughout the history of modern English.

 

Or the alternate form:

 

People don't read or write much poetry today because today's poetry sucks.

 

The popularity of poetry has tanked. True, poetry has always been a tough field, and getting poetry published has never been easy. But today, you can't give the stuff away. Publishing houses simply do not read poetry manuscripts, except for a very small, select group of already-published poets. Here's a question for the "I Wonder" thread: I wonder what was the last book of poetry to make the NYT's best-seller list?

 

If I were to ask 100 random Americans to name poetry of some sort, I bet at least 90 of them would name something written by someone who has been dead for decades if not centuries. So what has been the result of this ossification of poetry? Has new poetry been written? Well, yes...but it no longer has mass appeal. The so-called "poets" are generally writing to each other, trying to impress each other with their increasingly abstruse constructions, and in many cases consciously avoiding any popular appeal.

 

This is poetry?

 

But real poetry still exists, even today, alive and well and very strong. It simply does not exist among those we call "poets". Rather, it exists in the lyrics of popular music. Pop/rock musicians and rappers are today's real poets, and much of what they write will live for decades or perhaps even centuries, while the "poetry" of those who now call themselves "poets" will not be remembered next year.

 

When was the last time you read a sonnet? When was the last time you WROTE a sonnet? How come no one writes sonnets any more? We should be doing that for fun and practice. It's not a hard form. It is a little rigid, but that's not a bad thing at all; much creativity is sparked when having to work within constraints, or in creatively and thoughtfully violating those constraints. I'll make one up now.

 

"I love you!" said the boy to his good mother,

Blind to work-stained pants with baggy knees,

Not sensing need to help out this dear other,

But running off to play on grass and trees.

 

"I love you!" he declared to his sweet wife

And, kissing children, headed out the door,

Content to thus pursue his outer life

But home's domestic joys and risks ignore.

 

"I love you!" cried the old man to his Maker.

"I've sought to sing your praises! Every note!

"I've tried to give, and not be just a taker,

"And yet you seem so distant and remote!"

 

How must we learn to grasp the iron rod

And, serving others, learn to serve our God?

 

Timeless poetry? Unlikely. Doggerel? Perhaps. But it seeks to say something meaningful, and in a way not quite as self-focused as

 

Writing poetry is

An effort of

Will

Statements of the obvious

And juxtapositions of opposites

Bright, ferocious butterflies

Of non-meaning

With

lots

of

line

 

breaks

 

I'd sure love to see a renaissance of poetry -- real, meaningful poetry, not the academic fluff and nonsense you get at English departments and "poetry slams". I'm not the man to lead the charge, but I'll be cheering from the sidelines as the parade marches by.

[Guest]

I'd just be happy to find really good prose these days...

 

I love poetry but I have to admit, it's not something I read to while away the time.  I have to be in a poetic mood to do so (which is rare) or have it be classroom or book club assigned... why that is... it takes a lot more brain power for me to read poetry than to read prose and the reason I sit down to read is to give my brain a rest...

[Crypto]

I agree. I am much more interested in the sounds and rhythms that go along with poetry than what I would consider illustrative prose which seems more common to the genre now days. When modern poetry is read, they apply a rhythm more similar to rap than using the natural rhythms and sounds like more traditional stuff (Shakespeare). At least that's what it seems like to me.

Not to be misunderstood I can appreciate rap occasionally. (Just not the rap most people seem to like to listen to, and some rap is better than others of which I don't disagree with what Vort said above )

Edited January 6, 2015 by Crypto

[Pa Pa]

"Rhyming? That's quaint. Oh, and metered verse? How utterly...passé."

Pam's announcement of the LDS.net poetry contest causes me to reflect on poetry in general and the state of English poetry today. Here is my thesis statement:

Poetry per se is in the worst state it has ever been in throughout the history of modern English.

Or the alternate form:

People don't read or write much poetry today because today's poetry sucks.

The popularity of poetry has tanked. True, poetry has always been a tough field, and getting poetry published has never been easy. But today, you can't give the stuff away. Publishing houses simply do not read poetry manuscripts, except for a very small, select group of already-published poets. Here's a question for the "I Wonder" thread: I wonder what was the last book of poetry to make the NYT's best-seller list?

If I were to ask 100 random Americans to name poetry of some sort, I bet at least 90 of them would name something written by someone who has been dead for decades if not centuries. So what has been the result of this ossification of poetry? Has new poetry been written? Well, yes...but it no longer has mass appeal. The so-called "poets" are generally writing to each other, trying to impress each other with their increasingly abstruse constructions, and in many cases consciously avoiding any popular appeal.

This is poetry?

But real poetry still exists, even today, alive and well and very strong. It simply does not exist among those we call "poets". Rather, it exists in the lyrics of popular music. Pop/rock musicians and rappers are today's real poets, and much of what they write will live for decades or perhaps even centuries, while the "poetry" of those who now call themselves "poets" will not be remembered next year.

When was the last time you read a sonnet? When was the last time you WROTE a sonnet? How come no one writes sonnets any more? We should be doing that for fun and practice. It's not a hard form. It is a little rigid, but that's not a bad thing at all; much creativity is sparked when having to work within constraints, or in creatively and thoughtfully violating those constraints. I'll make one up now.

"I love you!" said the boy to his good mother,

Blind to work-stained pants with baggy knees,

Not sensing need to help out this dear other,

But running off to play on grass and trees.

"I love you!" he declared to his sweet wife

And, kissing children, headed out the door,

Content to thus pursue his outer life

But home's domestic joys and risks ignore.

"I love you!" cried the old man to his Maker.

"I've sought to sing your praises! Every note!

"I've tried to give, and not be just a taker,

"And yet you seem so distant and remote!"

How must we learn to grasp the iron rod

And, serving others, learn to serve our God?

Timeless poetry? Unlikely. Doggerel? Perhaps. But it seeks to say something meaningful, and in a way not quite as self-focused as

Writing poetry is

An effort of

Will

Statements of the obvious

And juxtapositions of opposites

Bright, ferocious butterflies

Of non-meaning

With

lots

of

line

breaks

I'd sure love to see a renaissance of poetry -- real, meaningful poetry, not the academic fluff and nonsense you get at English departments and "poetry slams". I'm not the man to lead the charge, but I'll be cheering from the sidelines as the parade marches by.

Do you have the same low opinion if poetry that rhymes and is good, or are you trying to poison the will for those who write this way. Not trying to be combative, just wondering what this thread is trying to accomplish? Good you expand or just don't like modern poets? God bless...

[The Folk Prophet]

I think

I agree with

Vort

Though I did not bother

To read his

Entire post

But

Ultimately who cares?

Only

Those

Who

 

 

Care

[Just_A_Guy]

What I've noticed on Facebook lately is that

 

Any three lines

Regardless of syllable count

Apparently, constitute a haiku.

[The Folk Prophet]

What I've noticed on Facebook lately is that

 

Any three lines

Regardless of syllable count

Apparently, constitute a haiku.

 

Awesome

This is my first

Haiku ever then because I've never cared enough to even bother with what a haiku actually is (though I sort of know...but).

Edited January 6, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Vort]

Do you have the same low opinion if poetry that rhymes and is good, or are you trying to poison the will for those who write this way.

 

Sorry, Pa Pa, I have no idea what you're asking. I'm also wondering if you know what it means to "poison the well". In general, I find "free verse poetry" to be distinctly unpoetic and highly pretentious. I am sure I have seen counterexamples, but at the moment, none occur to me.

 

It's pretty easy to write awful poetry. Rank though it may be, there's something fundamentally honest about bad versed, and especially rhymed, poetry. It's as if the author is saying, "Look, this may not be good, but it's a real stab at poetry." Bad "free verse poetry", which encompasses most of the genre, is almost intrinsically pretentious. It's as if the author is saying, "This is Deep and Meaningful Poetry, and if it sounds stupid to you, that's because you are not sophisticated enough to understand its depth".

 

In "The Emperor Has No Clothes" terms, bad rhymed poetry doesn't pretend to be dresesd.

 

Not trying to be combative, just wondering what this thread is trying to accomplish? Good you expand or just don't like modern poets?

 

As the thread title says, it's my view of the state of modern English poetry.

[The Folk Prophet]

I read the latest of Vort's posts fully,

And I have to say now that I fully agree

 

 

 

The best bad rhymed poetry almost always has natural prosody problems.

[theSQUIDSTER]

What I've noticed on Facebook lately is that

Any three lines

Regardless of syllable count

Apparently, constitute a haiku.

The rules with modern haiku vary depending on who you ask. Classically the rules were initially established by the Japanese masters (Basho, Buson, Issa being the most-lauded of the masters..) and are structurally integral to the Japanese language and culture. Most non-Japanese speakers get real hung up on syllable counting (the form being 5-7-5) which, again originated with the Japanese language which marries itself well to such a syllabic structure.. but actually doesn't make as much sense in other languages where things like rhyming words is a lot more interesting linguistically and makes more melodious sounding lines in those languages... There are cultural and linguistic reasons for the different forms.

Anyhow.. Anybody interested can look up and read about the nuances and specifics.

The essence of classical haiku is deeply rooted in Zen philosophy and Japanese culture. Modern haiku has evolved .. but actually not as far away from its classical roots as some other art forms.

When I write a haiku I usually try to do most or all of the following:

1. Keep it short enough to be uttered in one breath

2. Break it up into 2, 3 or 4 short lines... Usually 3.

3. Use a " kigo" (seasonal word) if I want it to feel more like a classical haiku.

4. I do count syllables and try to stay fairly close to the 5-7-5 form... But not too rigidly.

5. Shorter is always better. The fewer words I can use, to express the "Zen moment," the better. Ideally every single word should count.. No throw-away syllables or words should be added just to make it rigidly fit into the 5-7-5 syllable count.

Sometimes when I don't think my poem feels like a haiku or the related senryu .. I just call it a "short-form" poem. :)

Edited January 7, 2015 by theSQUIDSTER

[Palerider]

Here I thought Rap was today's Poetry. J/k......Lol

[The Folk Prophet]

The so-called "poets" are generally writing to each other, trying to impress each other with their increasingly abstruse constructions, and in many cases consciously avoiding any popular appeal.

 

I finally read all of the OP in full. I think this applies to many forms of what we term "modern" (or post-modern, or post-post-modern, or whatever they're trying to define is as nowadays -- mind you I've been out of school for some time now) art. I studied music in school. 20th century and beyond "classical" music is in the same boat. Obscure is better. And we all know the silliness of some modern art. Of course modern art has gone through some phases of semi-popularity in certain circles. Perhaps poetry will do the same. But we see the divergence of what has become "pop" culture and classical culture with the advent of mass communication. It's true for art, music and writing. Writing, of course, diverged first, because mass printing came first. But the culture, at large, wants their easy, catchy, repetitive, folk tunes. And when radio came about, guess where the money went?

 

It's not a perfect comparison across the board, but the general trend is interesting.

 

I remember reading how Stephen Sondheim was unhappy with Send in the Clowns because it became popular. I could never quite fathom that thinking.

[Pa Pa]

Sorry, Pa Pa, I have no idea what you're asking. I'm also wondering if you know what it means to "poison the well". In general, I find "free verse poetry" to be distinctly unpoetic and highly pretentious. I am sure I have seen counterexamples, but at the moment, none occur to me.

It's pretty easy to write awful poetry. Rank though it may be, there's something fundamentally honest about bad versed, and especially rhymed, poetry. It's as if the author is saying, "Look, this may not be good, but it's a real stab at poetry." Bad "free verse poetry", which encompasses most of the genre, is almost intrinsically pretentious. It's as if the author is saying, "This is Deep and Meaningful Poetry, and if it sounds stupid to you, that's because you are not sophisticated enough to understand its depth".

In "The Emperor Has No Clothes" terms, bad rhymed poetry doesn't pretend to be dresesd.

As the thread title says, it's my view of the state of modern English poetry.

What I men is that you are telling people, if they have poems that rhyme, it is all ready bad so don't posting, because it will be woeful. My poems sold well in a number of LDS Bookstore...or do the people who bought it, lack class and education. I am just trying to figure out if you are trying to impose your taste on everyone else...help me out. Most of my posts or threads, you tell me you have no idea what I am talking about. Really?

[Vort]

What I men is that you are telling people, if they have poems that rhyme, it is all ready bad so don't posting, because it will be woeful. My poems sold well in a number of LDS Bookstore...or do the people who bought it, lack class and education. I am just trying to figure out if you are trying to impose your taste on everyone else...help me out. Most of my posts or threads, you tell me you have no idea what I am talking about. Really?

Certainly in this thread. The best I could gather from your original post was that you were offended that I didn't like free verse poetry and that you thought I was "poisoning the well" to tell people that THEY shouldn't like free verse poetry, either, before they were ever exposed to it. Now it appears exactly the opposite -- you think I don't like rhymed poetry and that I'm trying to tell everyone that rhymed poetry sucks, so don't bother posting it.

 

Not sure what to tell you. If my writing is really that incomprehensible, then I'm not sure explaining myself will do much good.

 

For what it's worth, when I write poetry, it's pretty much always rhymed and metered.

[Pa Pa]

Sorry for the error when I spelled men, instead of mean. But if it is alright, I will submit the ones not published. You know two of my poems where copied instead of buying them and hung in Social Services...and another remained in the Atlanta Temple Presidency's office for years before the Temple was remodeled...and may still be there. One poem is in cemetery's all over North Georgia...one I wrote for my grandmother. You are right about one thing...I give my away now, not because they will not sale, but because I feel it is a gift of God and now I give them away.

[PolarVortex]

People don't read or write much poetry today because today's poetry sucks.

 

My taste in poetry is rather like Archie Bunker's taste in beer: go for whatever appeals to the unwashed masses and buy whatever's on sale that week.  And even I can see that you're very much on target here.

 

As a fun test, I decided to pull out samples of what today's thought leaders regard as superior modern poetry.  What better source than my own state of California, with a population of almost 40 million and its own poet laureate, selected on the basis of merit by the governor every two years?

 

Samples of our current poet laureate's work can be found here:

 

http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poems/45108

 

Some poems are audio only, so try reading Dolphinating, You & I Belong in This Kitchen, and tomorrow I leave to El Paso, Texas.  I'd include the poems right here in this post, but they're copyrighted and I don't know whether fair use allows me to copy entire poems. 

 

Far be it from me to criticize or ridicule the faithful work of another person... but these poems seem mighty far away from Ozymandias or In Flanders Fields.   (And I'm really baffled by the use of ampersands in today's poetry.  I was once in a writing group led by a professor of creative writing at a nearby university, and he always said ampersands were our true friends.  He was a nice guy, but he ended up committing suicide for reasons that nobody in the group really understood.)

 

No discussion of bad poetry would be complete without mentioning my favorite bad poem, Ode on the Mammoth Cheese by James McIntyre.  It start and ends as follows:

 

We have seen the Queen of cheese, 

Laying quietly at your ease, 

Gently fanned by evening breeze -- 

Thy fair form no flies dare seize. 

 

.

.

.

 

We'rt thou suspended from balloon, 

You'd cast a shade, even at noon; 

Folks would think it was the moon 

About to fall and crush them soon.

[FunkyTown]

 

We'rt thou suspended from balloon, 

You'd cast a shade, even at noon; 

Folks would think it was the moon 

About to fall and crush them soon.

 

There once was a bishopric man

Who spoke gibberish regardless of plan.

He stood up for a talk,

We all snoozed like a rock

But 'Amen' rang out and we ran.

Edited January 7, 2015 by FunkyTown

[PolarVortex]

   

There once was a bishopric man

Who spoke gibberish regardless of plan.

He stood up for a talk,

We all snoozed like a rock

But 'Amen' rang out and we ran.

 

 

Is it customary in LDS sacrament meetings to sing out "Amen" when you agree with the speaker on something?  I have not heard this very much.

 

I once attended a church where people shrieked "Amen" to everything, even to snarky comments from the pastor that people were saying "Amen" too much.  Curiously, it subsided completely on just one Sunday a year, when the church kicked off its pledge drive for the following year.

[FunkyTown]

 

Is it customary in LDS sacrament meetings to sing out "Amen" when you agree with the speaker on something?  I have not heard this very much.

 

I once attended a church where people shrieked "Amen" to everything, even to snarky comments from the pastor that people were saying "Amen" too much.  Curiously, it subsided completely on just one Sunday a year, when the church kicked off its pledge drive for the following year.

 

"Amen" in LDS culture generally signifies the end of a talk.

[Connie]

I wish i knew more about poetry.

[PolarVortex]

"Amen" in LDS culture generally signifies the end of a talk.

 

I see.  Memories dim after so many years, sadly.  

 

Ben Carson claims that the human brain perfectly remembers everything it senses, but I think he is remembering some fact imperfectly.  

[FunkyTown]

I wish i knew more about poetry.

Roses are red,

Violets are blue.

I am a Mormon,

I don't really understand Poetry.

[Vort]

Roses are red,

Violets are blue.

I am a Mormon,

I don't really understand Poetry.

 

Roses are red

Violets are blue

I am a dissociative identity who doesn't understand rhyming or how poetic verse scans

And so am I.

[NeuroTypical]

Vort (and everyone else),

 

If a major purpose of poetry is to convey (or evoke) emotion and stimulate thought, then I submit this for your consideration:

 

Edited January 7, 2015 by NeuroTypical

[theSQUIDSTER]

 

 

There once was a bishopric man

Who spoke gibberish regardless of plan.

He stood up for a talk,

We all snoozed like a rock

But 'Amen' rang out and we ran.

Hmmmm... Are you sure it wasn't a *high-counselor* man ..?

Also, have you been to my ward? This scene sounds all- too-familiar ...

Either way .. I prefer your poem to the more stereotypical: "There once was a man from Nantucket" limerick.. :)

Edited January 7, 2015 by theSQUIDSTER