death penalty

[estradling75]

I have no problem with the theory that some people can take actions that render their lives forfeit to justice.

 

I have some serious concerns about how we currently do that.

[prisonchaplain]

Many Evangelicals support the right of government to execute, based on passages in scripture like Romans 13.  As individuals, we a required to love our enemies and pray for those who despitefully use us.  However, God established government to maintain the order, and, to paraphrase, Caesar doesn't wield the sword without reason.

 

I hesitate to support 100% because of the studies showing disparities in conviction--tracking much higher for minorities in the poor.  It's not that personnel involved in justice are racist or elitist, but nevertheless, the unfairness is pretty outstanding.

 

I'm opposed not just for innocents. I'm opposed because I believe the matter of death can only be decided/commanded by God. So that in the early days of the Catholic Church when the King is subject to the Pope, I can support the death penalty on principle. A jury of your peers does not qualify for me as having the Priesthood Authority to seek God's command. If a qualification for jury/judge is a temple worthy bishop then I can support it on principle.

[JimmiGerman]

I am slightly in favor. Supposed "bias" doesn't bother me very much. Wrongful execution of innocents bothers me a great deal; but unlike the anti-death-penalty people, I don't see life in prison as a significantly better option. Spend thirty years in a cage for a crime you didn't commit, and the damage is done, at least as badly as if you had been killed by the state.

 

I can't agree. I wouldn't say that one better should be executed than to live in prison, even if it was a life term, and even if he didn't commit the crime. As I said, modern forensic science and DNA methods can lead the police to the murderer, and the "bias" you have mentioned wouldn't play a great role if the evidence would be given by a hundred percent, even if it sounds a bit naive. The problem are miserable defenders and failed appeals.

Edited February 3, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Windseeker]

Heavenly Father is clearly an advocate for the Death Penalty and I am as well. I think he allows us to mold society as we will, and if we want to sustain our murderers in a slothful lifestyle of comfort and porn and have sexual predators living on every corner of our neighborhood he's willing to let us live in the house we made.

 

With advanced technology, video surveillance and DNA evidence we can be more certain of guilt then at any time in our history. Yet our culture has made a death sentence a bigger burden on society then a life sentence. 

[SpiritDragon]

Personally, I am opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances.  But I will admit that my reason isn't a great one.

 

I read a news story once about the recent arrest of a man who had committed a particularly disturbing and heinous crime (I don't remember details, sorry).  My immediate thought was "I hope they fry the [choose your expletive]."  At that point, I realized that my support for capital punishment was based more on vengeance than anything else.  I felt that was wrong, and so now I oppose capital punishment.

 

I am, however, aware of the secondary problems my stance brings about.  Do we really want to pay to keep these people alive for decades?  Is it really fair to incarcerate someone for 30 years and then try to return them back to society?  Can a person really spend 30 years in prison among other criminals in our prisons' culture and then reenter society?

 

Part of me, like Vort, suspects that execution may be the more generous choice.  But part of me feels like that's also a cop out to take the easy choice.  Perhaps it would be better to reform the prison systems?  That too would be prohibitively expensive, but maybe smaller jails with more social help would be more productive at turning people's lives around?  

 

I don't know.  There's a lot of stuff here I don't know.  The only thing I am convinced of is that every execution performed out of vengeance is an execution done for the wrong reasons.  I believe we will be held accountable for those executions.  I'm certain there has to be a better way.

 

Very well articulated MOE. I can get behind the not killing from a vengeance point of view. However, I personally am for the death penalty, not as a tool of vengeance but as a way to ensure that the guilty party cannot re-offend and a huge deterrent to committing acts worthy of death. I've arrived at this conclusion based on personal feelings and scriptural references, but one of the biggest is that whether guilty or innocent I would rather be summarily executed than spend 25 years with the most corrupt elements of society as my companions. I would also rather be dead than have my unborn child see me behind bars. 

Edited February 3, 2015 by SpiritDragon

[JimmiGerman]

The Church is, as has been said, neutral.

 

Personally--I believe all life starts out innocent and is worthy of state action in order to preserve it.  But I also believe that that innocence can be forfeited through a sustained pattern of especially heinous behavior, to the point that it can sometimes be in the best interest of all concerned to end that life as painlessly as possible.

 

But given how costly the execution process has become in the American judicial system, I'm not convinced it's worth it anymore.  Any deterrence value the death penalty carries is more than nullified by the public outpouring of sympathy for the perpetrator that the modern American media inevitably incites.

 

I agree. But I don't believe that the death penalty has a great potential of deterrance, anyway, and I don't think that deterrance alone should be understood as its most significant aspect. Revenge and retribution would appear more significant to me.

Edited February 3, 2015 by JimmiGerman

[Traveler]

My personal opinion of a capitol punishment has significantly evolved.  But I believe what has modified my thinking the most is the changes in my understanding of death.  I have been most influenced by the death of my parents and my wife's parents, all of whom were righteous individuals that shrived diligently to honor their covenants with G-d.  In short I have come to believe that death is not at all something that should be viewed as something bad or an event of disadvantage.

 

What is bad is the prejudice and hate that convinces someone to do another harm - regardless if it brings about death or not.  Hate is bad not because of what we may do to others but because of what it does to our soul.   I honestly do not believe that being responsible for someone's death is really that big of a deal.  What is a big deal is hate - and it is a big deal even if we think we keep such hate secret and do not really act upon it.  I believe this is a true principle taught by our savior.  That we should love other - even those that hate us and do us harm.

 

But we should not be unreasonable.  There is a time to save lives and a time to end lives.  Both should be done through love.  Some thought about death:

 

1. We will all die - every one of us will taste death.  We should understand this as a blessing and opportunity granted by G-d.

 

2.  Some believe that it is better that 99 murders be set free than it is that one innocent individual should wrongly be put to death by our human laws.  I do not think that such thinking helps or protects the most innocent of our society.  I have come to believe that it would better if 99 innocent individuals should wrongly be put to death than one hardened murder being set free in an innocent society - I believe this even if I was one of the 99.  I would gladly give my life to protect the innocent of our society.

 

3.  Being willing to sacrifice life to benefit mankind is at the heart and core of a belief in Christ and respect of G-d.

[Vort]

Another point MarginOfError and I agree on: The desperate need for prison reform. The state of our prison system is perhaps the most shameful aspect of American life -- and that's saying something. I don't know how it got so bad, but when prison rape is a very real concern and I so often hear people talk about e.g. how a child molester will "get what he deserves" in prison (that is, he will be raped), I think the evil of our prison system infects the minds of our general population. This is not what prison should be.

 

As I said, I have little problem with the state executing someone (under appropriate circumstances). I have a very large problem with state-sponsored torture of prisoners. (I don't consider isolation to be torture, by the way.)

[Guest]

Another point MarginOfError and I agree on: The desperate need for prison reform. The state of our prison system is perhaps the most shameful aspect of American life -- and that's saying something. I don't know how it got so bad, but when prison rape is a very real concern and I so often hear people talk about e.g. how a child molester will "get what he deserves" in prison (that is, he will be raped), I think the evil of our prison system infects the minds of our general population. This is not what prison should be.

 

As I said, I have little problem with the state executing someone (under appropriate circumstances). I have a very large problem with state-sponsored torture of prisoners. (I don't consider isolation to be torture, by the way.)

 

I'm going to attempt to explain this...

 

This is because the prison system has become a place where the ugly side of the American John Wayne-ism is expressed.  We can't watch people getting hung anymore so we can't satisfy our need for vengeance/retribution by throwing tomatoes at the criminal... so we look to the prisons to exact the vengeance/retribution for us.  Until we rise above this need for vengeance, it's not going to change.

[Vort]

I'm going to attempt to explain this...

 

This is because the prison system has become a place where the ugly side of the American John Wayne-ism is expressed.  We can't watch people getting hung anymore so we can't satisfy our need for vengeance/retribution by throwing tomatoes at the criminal... so we look to the prisons to exact the vengeance/retribution for us.  Until we rise above this need for vengeance, it's not going to change.

 

Perhaps, but I wonder if it's not even that deep. I wonder if it's just a matter of letting our prison culture and our expectations for prison get out of control. People expect prisons to be a form of hell, just because that's what is shown on TV and portrayed in popular culture. Prisons become the breeding ground of filth.

 

Interestingly, Joseph Smith's Presidential platform included prison reform as a plank -- and even more interestingly, his position did not include abolishment of capital punishment. (Apparently, Joseph Smith considered a government official's dereliction of duty that resulted in death to be a capital crime!) A quick Google search turned up this short but informative take:

 

Joseph's views regarding crime and punishment were liberal, even for our day. Joseph had a clear understanding of the principles of justice and mercy. Today, modern conservatives have taken a "get tough" attitude on crime. Mandatory sentencing, "three strikes" laws, and juveniles being prosecuted as adults have been some of the responses to criminality. He proposed, "Let penitentiaries be turned into seminaries of learning.” His statement, "Rigor and seclusion never do as much to reform the propensities of men as [would] reason and friendship" demonstrate that he had a firm belief in the ability of the sinner to repent and mend his ways.” 

 

He did not advocate leniency. Criminals were to be put to work on public works where they could learn useful trades and receive education. Nevertheless, Joseph believed that the death penalty was a legitimate deterrent to heinous crimes, including the punishment of government officials who failed to justly exercise their authority to protect citizens from violence. (Imagine applying that leverage to judges today who sentence violent child molesters to three months probation!) Joseph also sought to end the practice of imprisoning a person for indebtedness, a practice that was still common in many states.

[Windseeker]

I think Sheriff Joe Arpaio has the right ideas when it comes to Prison reform.

[PolarVortex]

I think Sheriff Joe Arpaio has the right ideas when it comes to Prison reform.

 

The Sheriff has some ideas we should look at.  I've always thought that if someone is convicted of a crime, then the victim, the police department, and the court system should all send him a bill for all the costs of convicting him and repaying the victim.  The convict can go to some prison-like factory making license plates or coding iPhone apps, and he gets out when the debts are repaid.  In the case of murder, treat it the same way insurance companies do then they sue airlines for passengers who are killed.

 

Okay, maybe the iPhone apps thing wouldn't work.  That would be cruel and unusual punishment.  (I hate, hate, hate Objective-C.)

[CatholicLady]

Just out of curiosity...

 

Even for the Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundys of the world?

 

Yes. Actually those 2 guys are great examples of why the DP sucks.

 

Jeffrey became a Christian while in prison and became very involved with the Christian organizations within the prison. And of course, he repented.

 

Ted went on to become a big anti pornography advocate.

[CatholicLady]

I am slightly in favor. Supposed "bias" doesn't bother me very much. Wrongful execution of innocents bothers me a great deal; but unlike the anti-death-penalty people, I don't see life in prison as a significantly better option. Spend thirty years in a cage for a crime you didn't commit, and the damage is done, at least as badly as if you had been killed by the state.

 

As long as they are alive, there is always a chance that they may be redeemed and found innocent during their lifetime. It has happened to numerous people on death row, especially once DNA forensics started to evolve. That's how I look at it, anyway.

Edited February 3, 2015 by CatholicLady

[Vort]

As long as they are alive, there is always a chance that they may be redeemed and found innocent during their lifetime. It has happened to numerous people on death row, especially once DNA forensics started to evolve. That's how I look at it, anyway.

 

Certainly this is true. But so what? If I spend 30 years in a cage with human animals for a crime I didn't commit. how am I better off than if I had been executed?

 

I don't know. My reasoning isn't very convincing, even to myself. But the idea that being put in an American prison for decades is somehow superior to execution just doesn't ring true or just to me. The one thing I can agree with is that as long as a person is alive, there might be efforts made to clear his name. Once he's dead, people will just say it's not worth the money or effort to investigate. So there's that.

[Guest MormonGator]

My big concern about abolishing the death penalty is what if a person sentenced to life decides he has nothing to lose and kills a guard? Or another inmate? You can't just add another life sentence to the verdict. You also can't let the inmate do whatever he pleases. 

 

It's a complicated issue. Could we bring back solitary confinement to punish those already serving a life sentence who kill again? Probably not, because people would complain about that as "Cruel and unusual" as well. 

 

I tend to fall on the left side about prison reform (I am NO fan of Sheriff Joe) , with the exception or psychopaths and terrorists. 

Edited February 3, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest]

Certainly this is true. But so what? If I spend 30 years in a cage with human animals for a crime I didn't commit. how am I better off than if I had been executed?

 

I don't know. My reasoning isn't very convincing, even to myself. But the idea that being put in an American prison for decades is somehow superior to execution just doesn't ring true or just to me. The one thing I can agree with is that as long as a person is alive, there might be efforts made to clear his name. Once he's dead, people will just say it's not worth the money or effort to investigate. So there's that.

 

I think there's a certain leeway you have because of your LDS faith.  You are assuming that life is better after death because of the LDS belief that works continue in Spirit prison and you may still be redeemed from your sins then.

 

In non-LDS faith, all works end at death.  Repentance, conversion, sacraments... all end in death.  Therefore, a criminal's life is very precious because once he dies, hope for repentance dies with him.  So one might conclude that life in prison is better than life in eternal hell.

Edited February 3, 2015 by anatess

[Traveler]

As long as they are alive, there is always a chance that they may be redeemed and found innocent during their lifetime. It has happened to numerous people on death row, especially once DNA forensics started to evolve. That's how I look at it, anyway.

 

I must confess with sorrow that this attitude has me concerned about the thinking and belief of many “religious” individuals.  Even among LDS, that believe in missionary work in the spirit realm to teach those that had no opportunity in this life of the redemption of Christ that somehow believe that when this life is over G-d will judge the sinner and send them to hell.  The interesting twist is that they always believe that their sins will be over looked and that it is someone else going to hell.

 

Just the basic doctrine in the parable of the talents – I believe that there are greater expectations for those to do good and forsake evil; that have a relationship with G-d than those that do not have such relationship.  I would think G-d to hold those to higher account that know better than those that are ignorant of divine things.   That those that covenant with G-d and still sin (regardless of how small a sin) are somehow innocent while those that are ignorant of G-d’s goodness and do not understand, are more guilty for the exact same sin?

 

To be clear – I reject the religious notions that anyone will stand before G-d with sincere tears and remorse for their sins – that G-d would reject such because they died not understanding repentance before they died.  I do not believe in such a G-d and I reject any such doctrine.   This is one major reason that I accept the LDS religion – that G-d is no respecter of persons and will accept the sincere of any truly repentant person – regardless of when they realized their sins to be evil and desire to be forgiven and live righteously.

 

I believe when we stand before G-d – that G-d will ask us to make known our all that we desire.  If our desire is heaven – I believe that G-d will assist all that desire such good to live forever in heaven.  But those that learn to love sin – regardless of what church they attend or how much they love G-d – that G-d will grant them their desire and let them live in eternity with the sins they love so much that they cannot let go of such sins.

[Guest]

I must confess with sorrow that this attitude has me concerned about the thinking and belief of many “religious” individuals. 

 

What attitude are you talking about?  I don't understand what you're trying to say in your post.  I can't see how it relates to the death penalty or even to what CatholicLady said.

[Traveler]

What attitude are you talking about?  I don't understand what you're trying to say in your post.  I can't see how it relates to the death penalty or even to what CatholicLady said.

The idea that anyone is redeemed in this lifetime.

 

 

As long as they are alive, there is always a chance that they may be redeemed and found innocent during their lifetime.

 

Or that death ends the chance to be forgiven.

[The Folk Prophet]

Yes. Actually those 2 guys are great examples of why the DP sucks.

 

Jeffrey became a Christian while in prison and became very involved with the Christian organizations within the prison. And of course, he repented.

 

Ted went on to become a big anti pornography advocate.

 

This strikes me as particularly naive.

[The Folk Prophet]

I must confess with sorrow that this attitude has me concerned about the thinking and belief of many “religious” individuals.  Even among LDS, that believe in missionary work in the spirit realm to teach those that had no opportunity in this life of the redemption of Christ that somehow believe that when this life is over G-d will judge the sinner and send them to hell.  The interesting twist is that they always believe that their sins will be over looked and that it is someone else going to hell.

 

Just the basic doctrine in the parable of the talents – I believe that there are greater expectations for those to do good and forsake evil; that have a relationship with G-d than those that do not have such relationship.  I would think G-d to hold those to higher account that know better than those that are ignorant of divine things.   That those that covenant with G-d and still sin (regardless of how small a sin) are somehow innocent while those that are ignorant of G-d’s goodness and do not understand, are more guilty for the exact same sin?

 

To be clear – I reject the religious notions that anyone will stand before G-d with sincere tears and remorse for their sins – that G-d would reject such because they died not understanding repentance before they died.  I do not believe in such a G-d and I reject any such doctrine.   This is one major reason that I accept the LDS religion – that G-d is no respecter of persons and will accept the sincere of any truly repentant person – regardless of when they realized their sins to be evil and desire to be forgiven and live righteously.

 

I believe when we stand before G-d – that G-d will ask us to make known our all that we desire.  If our desire is heaven – I believe that G-d will assist all that desire such good to live forever in heaven.  But those that learn to love sin – regardless of what church they attend or how much they love G-d – that G-d will grant them their desire and let them live in eternity with the sins they love so much that they cannot let go of such sins.

 

Of course this philosophy of Traveler's entirely disregards the myriad of scriptural descriptions of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

[Pa Pa]

What is the LDS church's position on it?

That it is up to the courts (too paraphrase).

[JimmiGerman]

I think Sheriff Joe Arpaio has the right ideas when it comes to Prison reform.

 

There was a tv report here about him and his methods in Arizona. I don't know exactly why, but something lets me freeze if I'm trying to imagine his psychic constellation.

[CatholicLady]

Certainly this is true. But so what? If I spend 30 years in a cage with human animals for a crime I didn't commit. how am I better off than if I had been executed?

 

I don't know. My reasoning isn't very convincing, even to myself. But the idea that being put in an American prison for decades is somehow superior to execution just doesn't ring true or just to me. The one thing I can agree with is that as long as a person is alive, there might be efforts made to clear his name. Once he's dead, people will just say it's not worth the money or effort to investigate. So there's that.

 

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. :)