Well, John Dehlin is...

[slamjet]

I've been reading some of the comments about Dehlin on my facebook and I'm really dismayed at what I see as obvious.  He makes his living off donations for his podcasts (see here and here).  Being a podcaster who is a member give a certain credibility.  However, being excommunicated for the reasons he was strips away some of that credibility and donations would dwindle from members of the church.  The majority of donations would need to shift to those who are disenfranchised and against the church.  Church members would be strained to participate so he would be left, again, with the disenfranchised and anti as participants and donors, affecting his credibility to Mormons.

 

Also, read what he has now posted on his website.  It may seem subtle in places but there are plenty of keywords and phrases that screams out at me that his mission has become polarized.  Reading between the lines, His goal is to take people out of and hurt the church.  His mission in life reads almost exactly like Korihor's.

 

Plain and simple, he has evolved to be another anti-Mormon with a very slick message.  Thus, my earlier comment that I made (linky).  I was one who out-loud, denied God and Christ and the necessity of the church.  I fell really, really deep thus why my been-there, done-that experience has allowed me to see the slickness of Dehlin's message and what his goal really is.  It frustrates me that others can't see it but all must go through their trial of faith.  I just wish it wasn't by lifting Dehlin as a martyr for his cause who deserves praise.  Because he doesn't.

[PolarVortex]

My theory is that he started the podcast in good faith, but it veered off into a direction that he never predicted and opened the door to monetizing the doubts of the otherwise decent Mormons.  Secret recordings are just icing on this rotten cake.  What a snake in the stake.

[prisonchaplain]

He may eventually find a home in a Unitarian/Universalist type setting, or in one of the more liberal Christian denominations.  However, unlike some former LDS, who end up seeking to convert LDS to their new religion, I'm not sure he's got anything to take the disaffected to.  Most liberal Christians are not evangelistic.

[PolarVortex]

Yikes.  I've visited plenty of those "we believe in at most one God" churches, and some of them are the most boring churches I've ever seen, with worship services that say and do almost nothing of interest.  I'd rather spend an hour in a dentist's waiting room.

 

Others, curiously, are some of the most political churches I've visited, at least in my city.  I like to listen to online sermons from churches of various denominations, and some of these ultra-liberal churches talk more about gun control and the Keystone Pipeline than the parables of Jesus.  As a non-Democrat, I'm afraid I'd burst into flames if I set one toe onto their property.

[Laniston]

The situation isn't funny, but it's funny to me that I have never heard of this person until today. 

[Guest MormonGator]

The situation isn't funny, but it's funny to me that I have never heard of this person until today. 

I agree it isn't funny, it's sad. 

[prisonchaplain]

As a non-Democrat, I'm afraid I'd burst into flames if I set one toe onto their property.

 

One of my fellow seminarians went to a U/U church, as an assignment.  He was to visit a house of worship from a different religion.  There came a place in the service where greetings were to be offered.  Someone told him that she was into Buddhist meditation, but also looked to crystals for inspiration.  Then she asked, "Where are you in your spiritual journey?" 

 

He answered, "I believe that Jesus is God the Son, the one way of salvation for a lost and dying world.  I also believe that the Bible is the actual Word of God."

 

She looked nonplused, and quiped, "I don't think you'll be comfortable in our church." 

[PolarVortex]

Yes, that sounds depressingly familiar, PC.

 

A really good friend of mine used to attend a church where the pastor got into trouble because his sermons were based so heavily on the Bible.  He started preaching sermons on other books by recent theologians (Tillich, Niebuhr, Küng, Bonhoeffer, Barth, etc) but that simply enraged the congregation even more.  So he just started basing his sermons on any popular books, even Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.  That pleased the congregants very much, and they nicknamed the worship services "Oprah's Book Club."  The church folded a few years ago, I hear.

[skalenfehl]

I've never listened to his podcasts or have read anything about him. Saw him on the news today surrounded by lots of people at a church. I'm actually surprised there's a discussion about him on here. 

[Litzy]

I cannot comprehend why he wants to describe himself as a Mormon when all evidence has shown he has no interest. Doctrinally, he doesn't agree with much. He makes his living on convincing people to leave. And, to top it off, he stopped attending.

 

Is "Mormon" just for marketing his wares?

 

The next kicker is why those who proudly left the Church because of his podcasts want him to remain a member. Billy leaves the Church and goes anti, but doesn't want Dehlin to leave?

[Just_A_Guy]

On another forum, someone expressly laid out how it is not legal. If the SP decided to press charges, he could face misdemeanor charges, and if he makes any money off of releasing the transcript, more than that.

Utah allows a conversation to be recorded if one party to that conversation consents; and the other party need not be advised that the conversation is being recorded. The exception is if it's a conversation in which a party has a reasonable expectation of privacy. I think Pres. King's comments early in the transcript would probably create such an expectation; and I do rather suspect Dehlin broke the law.

The tax-exempt status of Dehlin's Open Stories Foundation has also been called into question this week since he has openly stated that donations go to support his living expenses, rather than to further the aims of the foundation per se (in tax law, that's an important distinction when you're claiming nonprofit status).

That said: while I'm not impressed by Dehlin's making $90k/year; I have no reason to doubt his claim that he left a six-figure job at Microsoft to pursue his current work. If I agreed with what he's doing, I could very easily justify the appropriateness of his salary in my own mind (the nonprofit status, not so much--but the salary itself? Sure).

Edited February 12, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[bytor2112]

Sigh...I spent some time reading his web site and many others over the years. All of them have some very common elements including concern over controversial (so-called) church history, anachronisms, mistreatment of women, gays, minorities and of course intellectuals. While I do not not wish to diminish the honest seeker struggling with their testimony, I do feel very hard towards those that have made themselves and their agenda their own personal church that seeks to lead others.....somewhere. (Kate Kelly)

 

But, the thing that is ALWAYS missing is any mention of the Holy Spirit and conversion. We know that the things of God are understood ONLY by the power of the Holy Spirit. I would not be a member if it were not for Spiritual experience....would any of you? Yet, in dealing with the pain and confusion or concern over perceived imperfections in the Lords church and the brethren, it is not mentioned. 

 

I spent time scratching my head and feeling a bit of panic over history etc many years ago, but it was the Holy Spirit that whispered to me that it was ALL true. Our testimonies and seeking to have the Spirit with us always is more important than anything else we do in life.....lest we be deceived.

[Vort]

Kate Kelly has openly (and very recently) affirmed that she believes devoted and faithful Latter-day Saints to be defective, certainly beneath her own exalted level. Honestly, nothing she has to say is of any interest outside of her family, close friends, and fellow apostates. John Dehlin has obviously dived headfirst into this same category with great relish.

[The Folk Prophet]

Per bytor2112's comment: I've read several debates from supporters of John Dehlin where the primary argument seems to be that he was a "safe place" for those who question to work through their concerns. My response (internally, as I am generally pretty rigid about not getting involved on Facebook with much of anything, and particularly not controversial things) is similar to bytor2112. I cannot help but wonder where they've concluded that the Holy Spirit is not the "safe place" they should be turning to. I have no doubt that John Dehlin was a sympathetic shoulder to cry on. I'm sure Satan would also happily give them a shoulder to cry on as well. And he often, sadly, does.

 

I am not saying (as I'm sure someone is likely to accuse me of) that a shoulder to cry on is not important. But which shoulder we cry on actually matters - a great deal.

 

Moreover, the "safe place" idea is a blatant lie (speaking of Satan and he who is the father of such things.) Turning to the likes of John Dehlin to feel safe is laughable. They feel "safe" because they know they won't feel judged -- as if being judged is the real danger.

[PolarVortex]

I very much agree with bytor2112 and TFP on this.

 

As I mentioned, I listened to Mormon Stories for a long time.  I go on long urban hikes on my lunch hour and listen to tons of podcasts.  Two years ago I started with Dehlin's first podcast and kept plodding through them one by one.  I stopped after the Sandra Tanner episodes, which would be somewhere around #470.

 

Before anyone starts throwing tomatoes at me, I didn't really know much about Dehlin when I started, and for a long time his podcasts had the surface structure of honest dialogue.  It wasn't until last year that I realized his mind had long ago left the Church but his body didn't follow, and for reasons that are still unclear to me he had this compulsion to publicize every thought that crossed his mind.

 

The previous comments are exactly right.  Dehlin had plenty to say about almost everything under the sun, but he was strangely silent on the topics of prayer and the Holy Spirit.  This is the root of his error.

 

I'm sick of this guy.  Let him fade for now, but I hope he finds his footing and his way back.

 

Edit: Well, last night I listened to Doug Fabrizio on KUER, and guess who his guest was.  For the first time, I heard Dehlin say he had prayed about the Book of Mormon but not received any answer.  So he does talk about prayer and the Holy Spirit sometimes, but it's certainly not the centerpiece of his spiritual walk from what I can tell.

Edited February 12, 2015 by PolarVortex

[slamjet]

Before anyone starts throwing tomatoes at me, I didn't really know much about Dehlin when I started, and for a long time his podcasts had the surface structure of honest dialogue.  It wasn't until last year that I realized his mind had long ago left the Church but his body didn't follow, ...

 

I'm in the same boat as you.  I listened for a while then it started to not sound right and felt even less right.  It wasn't until I really started reading between the lines that I got how slick he was becoming.  What really did it was Mormon Stories podcast.  It's blatant in it's message.  That's when I stopped. 

 

I'm not afraid to listen to some far out stuff that has made me think, but I don't appreciate it when I'm being told that I'm wrong and my conversion is a farce.

[prisonchaplain]

I'm guessing that someone that had came to believe the church was true, based upon a profound spiritual confirmation, and who later became convinced it's not true--would they not question any claims of "The Holy Spirit confirmed it in my heart?"

 

It's sad that many such folks will end up abandoning all efforts to reconcile with God.

[jana7]

Sins and transgressions can blind us so thoroughly that we cannot see

how lost we are, how prideful we are being.  Then time passes, the Spirit

fades even more, and we begin to be alone in the mire of wrong choices.  

I am sad that Dehlin has come to the point of being okay with leaving the

Spirit behind.  Very dangerous, unhappy ground. Pride might carry him 

for a time, but pride is a deep hole that us humans sure do fall into very

very easily.

[Guest MormonGator]

It might be time to let Dehlin deal with the consequences of his actions and leave him alone.  He probably thinks he is smarter than all us Mormons who believe in the church. After all, we can't think for ourselves anyway, can we? 

 

That's how a lot of non members view us and all religious people. It's sad, but true. It used to bother me but now I just find it funny

Edited February 14, 2015 by MormonGator