Sign in to follow this  
JimmiGerman

Suicide - Allowed Way of Ending Your Life or Against the Will of God?

Recommended Posts

I've just been inspired by a short discussion in an introducing thread between PolarVortex and me to open this thread facing the question of the legitimacy of a conscious suicide.

 

It was authentic some years ago. The person was standing here on the Köhlbrand Bridge, and officers tried to talk to him and hold him back. One tried to reach him, but then he was holding himself only with one hand and scared everyone to let lose. They were trying to do everything to avoid him to jump.Then, suddenly, he let lose and fell down. The harbour police with a boat were under the bridge and could get him out of the water, and his body was brought to land instantly to an emergency ambulance waiting there. It was on the news next morning that had died. It was said he'd been some kind of lovesick and depressing.

 

What about if you were in a situation when things don't make any sense to you? What about if you were old, becoming weak and insufficient, and there wouldn't be any hope to recover? You're maybe alone, weak,, and you're scared of maybe dying in a way you would say no - no one should find me one day in a way I wouldn't wish to be found - when I am dead.  Wouldn't it be better, if God granted you the power, of making an end by yourself at the right moment? This is not the question of how to bring yourself to death, but of having the capability to bring yourself to death, in a conscious way, and at the moment you still can choose.

Edited by JimmiGerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may seem harsh, but to get into God's kingdom we must become perfect, I don't see how someone who did not even finish his test getting a 100% on it. I can't imagine the professor (the savior) giving you a pass that you did all you could do when you didn't even bother to fill out all of the bubbles.

I could easily be wrong though, so there is always that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may seem harsh, but to get into God's kingdom we must become perfect, I don't see how someone who did not even finish his test getting a 100% on it. I can't imagine the professor (the savior) giving you a pass that you did all you could do when you didn't even bother to fill out all of the bubbles.

I could easily be wrong though, so there is always that.

 

The survival instinct is so overwhelming, that for someone to override it and take their own life makes me think that they are likely not really in control of themselves at that point.  I suspect they receive a great deal more mercy than your post implies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just been inspired by a short discussion in an introducing thread between PolarVortex and me to open this thread facing the question of the legitimacy of a conscious suicide.

 

It was authentic some years ago. The person was standing here on the Köhlbrand Bridge, and officers tried to talk to him and hold him back. One tried to reach him, but then he was holding himself only with one hand and scared everyone to let lose. They were trying to do everything to avoid him to jump. It was all because his girl friend said she would leave him. Then, suddenly, he let lose and fell down. The harbour police with a boat were under the bridge and could get him out of the water, and his body was brought to land instantly to an emergency ambulance waiting there. It was on the news next morning that was dead.

 

What about if you were in a situation when things don't make any sense to you? What about if you were old, becoming weak and insufficient, and there wouldn't be any hope to recover? You're maybe alone, weak,, and you're scared of maybe dying in a way you would say no - no one should find me one day in a way I wouldn't wish to be found - when I am dead.  Wouldn't it be better, if God granted you the power, of making an end by yourself at the right moment? This is not the question of how to bring yourself to death, but of having the capability to bring yourself to death, in a conscious way, and at the moment you still can choose.

 

Hi JimmiGerman!

 

Sounds like pride to me.

 

-Finrock

Edited by Finrock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The survival instinct is so overwhelming, that for someone to override it and take their own life makes me think that they are likely not really in control of themselves at that point.  I suspect they receive a great deal more mercy than your post implies.

 

The idea of a conscious suicide is prideful. However, that is not to judge actual suicides. Only God knows the whole story and is able to make a righteous judgment.

 

-Finrock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The survival instinct is so overwhelming, that for someone to override it and take their own life makes me think that they are likely not really in control of themselves at that point.  I suspect they receive a great deal more mercy than your post implies.

I agree with you.....member family that attends our Ward. They lost two sons to suicide. This family is an awesome family...these two boys battled depression. I think they will be judged by a loving and just God and thankfully not by human beings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh perhaps, my broad brush doesn't paint everything. I allow there may be cases where the water becomes muddy.

I certainly hope for that, but seeing the pain they cause in their wakes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not our place to judge those who have committed suicide. It is our place to state, unequivocally, that suicide is wrong and should never be considered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may seem harsh, but to get into God's kingdom we must become perfect, I don't see how someone who did not even finish his test getting a 100% on it. I can't imagine the professor (the savior) giving you a pass that you did all you could do when you didn't even bother to fill out all of the bubbles.

I could easily be wrong though, so there is always that.

 

 

The survival instinct is so overwhelming, that for someone to override it and take their own life makes me think that they are likely not really in control of themselves at that point.  I suspect they receive a great deal more mercy than your post implies.

I'm going to leave God to judge this one. I don't think suicide should be encouraged though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's been a great issue here about euthanasia. But it's still strictly forbidden, and no physician in Germany is allowed to help someone dying in an active way (i.e. by giving him a lethal drug). It's illegal and it would be to be seen as a criminal offence. In the Netherlands it is allowed. An ethic commission decides on the individual case then.

Edited by JimmiGerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe. On the other hand it's a question of dignity and the freedom of self-determination.

 

I think I understand your point of view, and why you would feel that way, but we have been taught that is not the Lord's way.  Remember Isaiah said, His ways are not our ways.  Though it may seem to us that it is a question of dignity, it is not the Lord's way.  I believe one of the great lessons of this life is to learn to trust the Lord and bend our will to His even when--especially when--we don't understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may seem harsh, but to get into God's kingdom we must become perfect, I don't see how someone who did not even finish his test getting a 100% on it. I can't imagine the professor (the savior) giving you a pass that you did all you could do when you didn't even bother to fill out all of the bubbles.

I could easily be wrong though, so there is always that.

 

On the other hand, how can you still proceed and become more perfect when you are in a nursing home, suffering from a stroke or dementia, when you are, let's say, 80 years old, unable to make decisions, to find the restroom, being dependent on other persons, subordinated to a legal responsible person, sentenced to vegetate.

Edited by JimmiGerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the other hand, how can you still proceed when you are in a nursing home, suffering from a stroke or dementia, when you are, let's say, 80 years old, unable to make decisions, to find the restroom, being dependent on other persons, subordinated to a legal responsible person, sentenced to vegetate.

 

This is a good question, but we need to remember there is much we do not know.  For example, I read a book, My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientist's Personal Journey by Jill Bolte Taylor a neuroscientist who had a stroke.  She was in the unique position of understanding what was happening to her on a deeper level than most of us.

 

Her stroke was a bad one that left her for a time in a very helpless, I would say--infant-like state. This comparison is important because you specifically mentioned stroke, and I think this could also be the state of some dementia patients.  While we look at that state as miserable, and even "sub-human" (in that you can't function as a normal human), Ms. Bolte Taylor describes it as something very beautiful and peaceful--a state she was not particularly anxious to return from.

 

This is why I say we need to trust the Lord in these matters.  There is much at play here that we do not understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an interesting topic.  Here is what I found on the Church web site:

 

Although it is wrong to take one's own life, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said:

 

“Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

 

“When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth” (“Suicide: Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not,” Ensign, Oct. 1987, 8).

 

 

I've  been studying the afterlife and as a part of that study I read two books:  Life Everlasting, by Duane Crowther (LDS scholar, temple president), and Return From Tomorrow, by Dr. George G. Ritchie.  I strongly recommend both books.  The second book is the story of Dr. Ritchie when he died at the beginning of WWII.  He was dead for 9 minutes and had a remarkable experience.  In my research, I found that his near death experience is right in line with what has been taught by early and current church leaders.  Here is an excerpt from his book regarding suicide.

 

In one house a younger man followed an older one from room to room. "I'm sorry, Pa!" he kept saying. "I didn't know what it would do to Mama! I didn't understand."

But though I could hear him clearly, it was obvious that the man he was speaking to could not. The old man was carrying a tray into a room where an elderly woman sat in bed. "I'm sorry, Pa," the young man said again. "I'm sorry, Mama." Endlessly, over and over, to ears that could not hear.
In bafflement I turned to the Brightness beside me. But though I felt His compassion flow like a torrent into the room before us, no understanding lighted my mind.

Several times we paused before similar scenes. A boy trailing a teenaged girl through the corridors of a school "I’m sorry, Nancy!" A middle-aged woman begging a grey haired man to forgive her.

"What are they so sorry for, Jesus?" I pleaded. "Why do they keep talking to people who can't hear them?"
Then from the Light beside me came the thought: They are suicides, chained to every consequence of their act.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question - Did not Jesus give up his own life for us?  Scripture tells us that there is no greater love than someone that will give their life for another.  There are many combat stories and other such things were someone willing gives their life for the benefit of another.  It is my personal opinion that we over rate death.  We will all die – we may as well do so for a noble cause.  I see nothing wrong with ending one’s life as a service for others or G-d.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is quite a difference between taking a bullet for someone, and taking some cyanide because you can't stand your life any longer Traveler.

They are in no way comparable, one act is selfish, one is charitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is quite a difference between taking a bullet for someone, and taking some cyanide because you can't stand your life any longer Traveler.

They are in no way comparable, one act is selfish, one is charitable.

I strongly disagree that suicide is selfish. In many cases, the mindset of the individual committing suicide is distorted to the extent that logical thinking is impossible. It's entirely likely that at the moment they go through with the act, they believe those they are leaving behind will ultimately be better off without them. Edited by Mahone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is quite a difference between taking a bullet for someone, and taking some cyanide because you can't stand your life any longer Traveler.

They are in no way comparable, one act is selfish, one is charitable.

 

Shakespeare (I believe in Hamlet) said that "nothing is as good or bad as it seems only that thinking makes it so".  I agree with a previous post - and would point out that despite that you can find differences - that there may be some surprising similarities.  For example - at the time - the courses of action may have been seen as the best possible solutions to the difficulties at hand.  That you can, in your very different condition and circumstance, see a better solution to resolve your concerns does not mean that such is obvious to those in the thick of whatever battle they standing alone and are losing.

 

What I find interesting in this discussion is how easy it is for many to pass judgment.  If I recall correctly I had a different view in a discussion about judgements suggesting is is not so much that we should not judge as that I believe the scriptures are trying to tell us that we should not condemn.

Edited by Traveler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I experienced tunnel vision as I travelled down the path of attempted suicide.  All I saw before me were the pills as I consumed them.  I tried twice. If I do it again there will not be a failure.  I am glad for jerome1232's happy little Pollyanna attitude. There is no one in my life that I would begin to follow around begging for forgiveness.  Somehow people, especially within the Church, think that we all begin in life with the same genetic makeup, same family environment, that we are all the same. I would like to at least once before I die to stand up in a Fast and Testimony meeting and say that I hate you all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I experienced tunnel vision as I travelled down the path of attempted suicide.  All I saw before me were the pills as I consumed them.  I tried twice. If I do it again there will not be a failure.  I am glad for jerome1232's happy little Pollyanna attitude. There is no one in my life that I would begin to follow around begging for forgiveness.  Somehow people, especially within the Church, think that we all begin in life with the same genetic makeup, same family environment, that we are all the same. I would like to at least once before I die to stand up in a Fast and Testimony meeting and say that I hate you all.

 

 

John, I'm so sorry you are hurting.  I have been suicidal too, and while I can't say I understand completely what you are feeling, I can understand better than most.  

 

You are so right we don't all begin life with the same genetic makeup, family environment, etc.  I understand the frustration and anger you feel, I've felt that too.  

 

Please don't give up, it does get better.  

 

I recently gave a talk about working through deep grief and pain like this.  Perhaps you would find it helpful.  You can listen to it here:  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this