Relationship between illness and evil spirits

[priesthoodpower]

.. He told me that this idea or information was expressly for me and that there was a reason I needed this knowledge and truth in my life. It was to help me in the future in being able to recognize things for what they were.

 

I agree, we all have different spiritual talents/gifts, for some people like my wife the veil seems to be a lot thinner for her as she always encounters various spiritual experiences (some good/some bad). Since she was little she was always this way. She spends a decent amount of time reading books and searching the internet every month on this subject.

[priesthoodpower]

What is the relationship, if any, between illnesses, diseases, mental illness and death, and evil spirits? 

 

God is science, Satan is also science.

[georgia2]

I am a computer systems engineer and I can tell you right now that anything with a windows operating system is just plain ole crap, nothing to do with evil spirits. :)

the more we educate ourselves and learn about this world the less superstitious we become

...

I'm very familiar with windows so much so i use Macs.! I'm not uneducated in technology or electronics. In fact i'm the go to person in our family. Superstition is also not my thing. . I guess I may be somewhat like your wife in that I've had my share of pretty heavy duty spiritual experiences both good and some downright scary! I 'm also a resercher and read in depth teachings of general authorities that Aren't publicized as much. I have my own knowledge that evil can and does have powers to do things we commonly blame on other things.

Edited March 2, 2015 by georgia2

[Guest]

I'm not superstitious, I'm just a little stitious. 

[Guest]

[dahlia]

Boy, a million and one things to spend hundreds of hours on, and the OP spends it on learning about evil spirits. Not chemistry, not art, not literature, not agriculture, not the light, but the dark and evil spirits. Sigh.

 

I guess I go two ways on this. I don't spend a lot of time thinking or talking about the Adversary. I don't give him a lot of room in my life. On the other hand, I do think that we can create good or bad atmospheres in our home by what we bring in, what we spend time on, how we speak to each other, etc.

 

This may not be the best way to deal with it, but I live hundreds of miles away from toxic family members because they are toxic and I don't want them in my daily life. I stay away from people with a lot of drama. Are they evil? No, they're just people who can't handle their issues, BUT, depending what those issues are, you can get friggin' killed hanging around some folks, so I stay away (that's the Philly girl talking. You guys probably don't have homicide-level drama in Utah).

 

As for "Parley P. Pratt called electricity a “spiritual fluid.” meaning anything, people called electricity all kinds of things in the early days. What one person, not a scientist, called it is meaningless. I taught about early technologies and technology/utility polices and worked on tech policy in a think tank. I know more than a little bit about this topic.  Men used to think women and blacks shouldn't work with electricity. I'd as much believe or be influenced by what Pratt said about electricity as I would be by what Captain Kangaroo said about nuclear physics. Jeez.

[Ratbag]

Boy, a million and one things to spend hundreds of hours on, and the OP spends it on learning about evil spirits. Not chemistry, not art, not literature, not agriculture, not the light, but the dark and evil spirits. Sigh.

 

I guess I go two ways on this. I don't spend a lot of time thinking or talking about the Adversary. I don't give him a lot of room in my life. On the other hand, I do think that we can create good or bad atmospheres in our home by what we bring in, what we spend time on, how we speak to each other, etc.

 

This may not be the best way to deal with it, but I live hundreds of miles away from toxic family members because they are toxic and I don't want them in my daily life. I stay away from people with a lot of drama. Are they evil? No, they're just people who can't handle their issues, BUT, depending what those issues are, you can get friggin' killed hanging around some folks, so I stay away (that's the Philly girl talking. You guys probably don't have homicide-level drama in Utah).

 

As for "Parley P. Pratt called electricity a “spiritual fluid.” meaning anything, people called electricity all kinds of things in the early days. What one person, not a scientist, called it is meaningless. I taught about early technologies and technology/utility polices and worked on tech policy in a think tank. I know more than a little bit about this topic.  Men used to think women and blacks shouldn't work with electricity. I'd as much believe or be influenced by what Pratt said about electricity as I would be by what Captain Kangaroo said about nuclear physics. Jeez.

 

You think your comment is original?  I guess I must be nuts, stupid, idiotic, etc., spending a lot of time on learning about evil spirits.  What a waste of time, huh?  I get that same attitude with the vast majority of LDS.  What would you like to know about?  Let me see, I obtained a degree in criminal justice just before I became a police officer.  I also have a degree in paralegal studies.  Want to see some of the photographs I’ve taken of flowers, portraits, landscapes?  They are very beautiful.  Want to see some of the drawings I’ve made of dragons?  They are pretty cool. 

 

In June I’m setting up a farm in Utah doing underground greenhouses called walipinis.  Ever hear of them?  I’ve already written one book and I’m in the process of writing a second one.  I’ve read well over 1000 books in my life time.  I’m an avid book reader.  I speak sign language.  How about you?  I don’t sit around the house watching the boob tube and I don’t watch movies.  I don’t waste my time watching mindless TV shows, football or any other sport, except occasionally hockey if I have the time.  Love them Penguins!

 

I guess that is pretty stupid, right?  Guess what?  You know that really stupid guy who restored Christ’s church on this earth, that idiot who talked to God in the Sacred Grove, Joseph Smith; the idiot who save Jesus only did more for the salvation of mankind than any other person who lived on this earth?  That guy?  Want to know what he wasted more time studing about and teaching about than any other subject?  According to his cousin, the Apostle George A. Smith, Joseph spent the most time teaching the early saints about evil spirits, their abilities, their power, their government and laws, and how to discern them.  You can look it up for yourself in one of those books the overwhelming majority of LDS don’t read; probably don’t even realize exists.  The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph.

 

Want to hear some more of what Joseph Smith wasted his time on teaching?

 

One great evil is, that men are ignorant of the nature of spirits; their power, laws, government, intelligence, etc….

HC 4:572

 

Knowledge saves a man; and in the world of spirits no man can be exalted but by knowledge. So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved; although, if he has been guilty of great sins, he will be punished for them. But when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved.

JD 6:8

The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation. This principle can be comprehended by the faithful and diligent; and every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet.  And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved….

HC 5:387-388

 

In another place, the Prophet says: "Wicked spirits have their bounds, limits and laws, by which they are governed; and it is very evident that they possess a power that none but those who have the Priesthood can control."

To his declaration that "a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge," he adds that if men do not get knowledge, including the knowledge of how to control evil spirits, the latter will have more power than the former, and thus be able to dominate them.

Saturday Night Thoughts

Orson F. Whitney

Pgs. 309-311

 

 

If Joseph Smith were alive today, setting up the restored Church in this time, he would have been locked up in the looney bin.  Pshrinks from the pseudo-science of psychiatry would have said he was schizophrenic and would have drugged him senseless.  The Prophet was hounded badly by evil spirits from the very day he knelt down in the Sacred Grove till the day he was murdered.

 

I am amazed and tired of the willful ignorance of Latter-day Saints.  They are so horribly deceived by the wisdom of the world.  They think that secular learning is everything.  It knows all and is all that is necessary to gain their salvation.  I know a lot of highly educated idiots whose spiritual IQ is not much bigger than their shoe size.  The glory of God is intelligence.  The intelligence being referred to isn't secular knowledge, it is spiritual knowledge.  You talk about literature?  Why don’t you read some of what Joseph Smith taught. 

 

OK, sarcasm and rant is now finished.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Ratbag

[dahlia]

If Joseph Smith were alive today, setting up the restored Church in this time, he would have been locked up in the looney bin. 

Doubtful. Have you looked around at all the 'different' people who have followers?  The Black Hebrews in Philly have spouted their racist hate on street corners for years. Still here. Some dude gets people to sauna themselves to death in a 'Native American' sweat lodge, got 2 yrs in jail and is walking around today.  There are people around the world who claim to have had visions - still walking around. 

 

Now, might a returned Smith be made fun of? Yeah, maybe. Put in an asylum? We can't get certified schizophrenics placed in asylums (thank you, ACLU) - do you really think, in this country, in most western countries, that a hard working, Bible toting, nonviolent to himself or others, visionary is going to be put in an asylum? No way.

 

I love it when people put down intellectuals and 'worldly learning.' It saves me energy because I can stop dealing with them and move on to more profitable endeavors.

[Guest]

There are better spiritual topics to put energy into, as well. Like the Atonement, charity, or maybe how angels can come to our aid instead of how evil spirits make us addicted to porn or whatever it may be. OR, that little scripture about contention being of the devil.

[georgia2]

Agreed. Why is there so much contention here? We all know those spirits are here. We all know it's their job to temp us, make us miserable, cause as much trouble as they can. Every one doesn't share the same interest. Me, I'm a researcher. I research things I want to know better. How to garden , sew, cook, have better relationships, follow the Gospel more closely. Due to experiences I've had, i have had to research what those spirits can do, what their capabilites are. If I have an enemy I want to know what the tactics are, their weapons are so I am prepared to defend myself. Yes, I count on Heavenly Father, but we also have been told we need to learn as much as we can.. If you aten't interested in knowing this stuff, fine.. Don't ridicule or make fun of those that do. Everything we learn here is an advantage on the other side.

[Vort]

I guess I take Eowyn's POV on this. I grant that evil spirits are real, but I believe that for the most part they trouble us only as much as we allow. I prefer not to spend any time worrying about them. They are vile and filthy beyond description, and I don't need that in my life.

[pam]

I love when people are asked "their thoughts.'

 

Then are quickly criticized for posting their thoughts if they don't match the questioners own thoughts.

 

I've asked for thoughts on here before. But at least I allow those to post their responses without "I can't believe Latter-day Saints" today kind of thing.

 

If one doesn't really want another's thoughts....don't ask.  Or if one gets so disgusted with how LDS people think,  don't come to a forum filled with LDS people and ask their thoughts.

[NeuroTypical]

This first one is from a church sponsored newspaper called, "The Seer" in reference to Joseph Smith.

 

 

Hi Ratbag,

 

Not meaning to detract from your zealous desire to spread your thoughts on unclean spirits, but I thought you might want to know Orson Pratt's publication "The Seer", was repudiated by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church.  Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. The Deseret News 8/23/1865 published an article signed by the First Presidency and Twelve, saying the Seer and some of Elder Pratt's other writings were inaccurate.

 

"But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 contains doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it."

 

You've got plenty of other sources there, so no big whoop.  Just alerting you to the fact that at least one small part of what you're posting has been repudiated and disowned by the church.

 

What is the relationship, if any, between illnesses, diseases, mental illness and death, and evil spirits?

 

 

I note a surprising lack of references to evil spirits in the following links:

 

Like a Broken Vessel - Elder Jeffrey R. Holland - October 2013 General Conference

 

THE MOVING OF THE WATER - Boyd K. Packer - April 1991 General Conference

 

Understanding Mental Illness - Disability Resource List

 

and one of my personal favorites:

 

Myths about Mental Illness - Elder Alexander B. Morrison Of the Seventy - October 2005 Ensign 

 

As mentioned, during the past 40 years numerous medications have been developed by the multinational pharmaceutical industry. These products have proven of inestimable worth to millions. They are not perfect, nor do they work effectively in every instance—far from it, unfortunately. But we are getting closer to the day when physicians will have available effective drugs which are specific in correcting the biochemical lesions concerned, without the side effects which too often limit the effectiveness of medications today. I have no doubt that such developments, which we are already beginning to see, will result in striking advances in the treatment of mental illness over the next decade.

 

[Blackmarch]

This is a bit of a side track, but your comment makes me reflect on the question of whether, or how much, agency, evil spirits have. They surely have intelligence, but they fought against the idea of having agency. 

I imagine that they do have agency, however I doubt they have much freedom, and have become so set on their path that they are incapable of changing it any more than God would choose to do something that would remove him from being God.

[Blackmarch]

Doubtful. Have you looked around at all the 'different' people who have followers?  The Black Hebrews in Philly have spouted their racist hate on street corners for years. Still here. Some dude gets people to sauna themselves to death in a 'Native American' sweat lodge, got 2 yrs in jail and is walking around today.  There are people around the world who claim to have had visions - still walking around. 

 

Now, might a returned Smith be made fun of? Yeah, maybe. Put in an asylum? We can't get certified schizophrenics placed in asylums (thank you, ACLU) - do you really think, in this country, in most western countries, that a hard working, Bible toting, nonviolent to himself or others, visionary is going to be put in an asylum? No way.

 

I love it when people put down intellectuals and 'worldly learning.' It saves me energy because I can stop dealing with them and move on to more profitable endeavors.

I don't know. When one has the opportunity to see god revealed, they tend to also get the opportunity to see the devil revealed.

 

Edited March 5, 2015 by Blackmarch

[Sannie]

I'll admit, I'm not well-read on evil spirits as they pertain to doctrine. I am interested in paranormal to a degree but have found I am either unaffected by ghosts and the stereotypical occult "beings" or they don't exist. I don't believe in ghosts/human shaped spirits or what have you (no criticism toward those who do!). I do believe in that feeling of good or evil, you know? I've been in "haunted" places and felt nothing but in others I really could feel that it wasn't a good place, somewhere I shouldn't be. That is very real, so I suppose those are the evil spirits mentioned. But again, what do I know?

Common sense tells me that I should avoid feelings that feel bad, evil, wrong, sick, etc. So dwelling on those thoughts and feelings is an invitation, yes? So I don't.

if I have a mental illness do I get an exorcism? No, I seriously doubt that would work. No, I seek counseling, spiritual support and healthy lifestyle choices. Meds maybe. So if these things don't fix the problem completely does that mean I am possessed? Doubtful.

I do think sometimes we humans attribute a bit too much to spirituality. Temporal and spiritual work together and and we need to strike a balance between them. And sometimes an illness is just an illness. Not the adversary trying to destroy us. Just my opinion, not doctrine.

[theSQUIDSTER]

Mostly to the OP:

Ratbag,

I think you're missing a hugely important point about evil spirits and lucifer... I'd say whatever powers and priesthoods or abilities he has to manipulate the elements and whatnot are rather insignificant in the face of what he's actually allowed to do, pretty much all the time:

-----------------> LIE <------------------

Lucifer is the father of lies. This, in my opinion, is by far his most powerful weapon.

Lying gets very little press in the world, the news, Hollywood, etc. Think about how harmless lying seems to most people. "It's just a little white lie.. " yadda yadda yadda... It's so easy to overlook... so easy to dismiss. But I submit to you that being able to lie with cunning and strategy, as Satan and all his followers do, is a HUGELY powerful thing. Satan is able to whisper into the hearts of God's children and convince them ever-so-gradually to do things that carefully lead them away from the safety their Father and their Savior. On the surface of it, it's pretty lacking in glamour. It's so "under the radar" that nobody really even notices. A little bit here, a little bit there, and slowly he leads them ..... slowly he leads us away... or he most certainly will, unless we recognize him for what he really is. A liar... a consummate, persuasive, and extremely cunning LIAR.

People miss the significance of this. Artists through the ages have loved to portray him as a fearful looking creature.. commanding all sorts of mysterious powers to take over bodies, make people do things completely against their will... like spinning their heads around and projectile vomiting, walking backward on all-fours up the side of walls and hanging from ceilings.... Pretty cartoonish and silly really. Does it really matter if he can or can't do such things? Those things are parlor tricks... small fry... Even if he can perform such tricks I doubt he gets much counterfeit joy from little individual instances like that. He'd much rather terrorize millions. Reign with "blood and horror"... all that stuff.

So how does he bring about the terror of millions? By lying. Spin spin spin.... If he can get enough people to think they've been wronged by others, and go start a war because of it, then wouldn't he get much more satisfaction from that? ... so... on the one hand, a Linda Blair (or Regan... her character in the Exorcist...) here and there or... hmmmmmm... how about a Hitler, Himmler, or a Stalin... or Mao? Someone persuasive that can convince a WHOLE boatload of others to follow him? ...

We've already seen the evidence again and again of the power of his influence and where it leads. So... why, I ask, would he want to just take a bunch of bodies and create a zombie army, when, instead, he can influence and lead an army of completely-willing, nihilistic fanatics who are absolutely blinded by their zeal and hatred? Even, better... what if he convinces them that THEY'RE actually the good guys? Think he would get a perverted kick out of that?

Consider this moment in Nephite history:

3 Nephi, 3:9

And behold, I am Giddianhi; and I am the governor of this the secret society of Gadianton; which society and the works thereof I know to be good; and they are of ancient date and they have been handed down unto us...

This is the evidence of Satan's true nature and power. No manipulating of stem-cells, bacteria, or giving people cancer.... Secret combinations... the lust for power, vengeance, glory of the world... Climbing to the heights through deception, murder, stealing, and... LYING. The lies just get bigger and bigger... until before you know it you have somebody orchestrating assembly-line murder of millions, convinced they're doing it for some greater "good" ... rather than the horrific evil that it actually is.

Ok... so I've said bit about the devil. No "mystery, babylon, harlots..." though that's how it starts out. He seduces. He tells us things that appeal to us and then drags us as far as he can in that state of delusion.

So how do we fight someone like that? Do we have to become some kind of super-knowledgeable, spiritual ninjas? Do we face him headon? What chance would we really have? Do we really think Satan wouldn't walk all over a Stephen Halking or an Albert Einstein in a battle of wits? ...or think he couldn't kick Chuck Norris' or <insert your favorite tough-guy or tough-girl's name here> butt around the block without even breaking a sweat? So shouldn't we be afraid... VERRRRYYY afraid? ....

No.

We NEVER go out and meet him.... unless, we're marching behind our Savior. We with all our knowledge and skills are NOTHING in the face of Satan's cunning and power. But our Lord is the complete game changer. Satan, despite all his cunning as well as his power and priesthoods... how does he stack up against our older brother? ..

No contest. Our older Brother now has everything our Father has... He's so much more powerful that just the mere mention of HIs name sends Satan running... because he HAS to... Satan has only EVER been allowed to do what the Father allows him to do... only for a season...

If you want to fight devils and spirts, go to the temple. Do something kind for a brother or sister. That REALLY gauls him. Forgive someone. Basically the biggest and baddest ninja skills in our arsenal need to be loving one another, praying, preaching with the power of the Spirit... and probably the biggest that we can begin with...?

Repentance.

I doubt you can poke Satan more definitively in the eye and really shatter his world, than by repenting. or helping a brother or sister to repent and turn again to the Savior.

It seems like a pretty counter-intuitive thing... instead of hating a perceived enemy... instead of giving in to any kind of frustration, anger and hatred... praying for him... or her... praying for forgiveness and love to fill your heart and theirs. There is such tremendous power in love! You may or may not sway your "enemy" ... but even if only your heart is changed, then you've still won.

Let's not give Satan anymore power than he already has. If you hear people less eager to discuss him or his angels, or even misguided brothers and sisters who are following him... don't assume that they are necessarily not talking about him because they're afraid of him. I don't believe we need to fear him... but we DO need to be extremely wary of his influence, which is currently VERY great and powerful... so much so that it covers the whole earth... and yet... and yet... we KNOW who is more powerful... SO much more powerful. Let's talk more about that. That's true glory and magnificent beauty, which, at it's pinnacle, defies all description.. and it's very essence, that of our Father and our Savior is:

LOVE.

Forgive me for this final analogy... but if this is a card game where we want to have the winning hand, then a full-house of LOVE beats and hand of straight-LIES every time... :)

Thanks for listening... :)

Edited March 17, 2015 by theSQUIDSTER