Bruce Jenner

[omegaseamaster75]

Bruce Gender is a big golfer, if he goes through with the operation will he be allowed to play from the women's tees? If so I cry foul...

[theSQUIDSTER]

People in the public eye, especially in the fashion and entertainment industry, are especially at risk of getting sucked into the slippery slope of cosmetic surgery and becoming addicted. I think Bruce, like so many celebs, is quite simply *addicted* to cosmetic surgery. Our society is so obsessed with appearance that it tends for so many to trump pretty much everything else. It's a serious sickness. Please understand, I'm not talking about reconstructive surgery after an accident or to fix something like a cleft palette.. I'm referring to this notion that it's ok or even advisable to surgically tweak one's appearance in an effort to get just a little bit closer to some physical "ideal." Is it really any wonder that, for all-too-many who start down that road, searching for an ever-changing notion of what's "beautiful," it will NEVER end? There will always be one more nip or tuck that they need. It's really quite like the proverbial dog chasing its own tail. It might be comical if it wasn't so destructive how the world just chews up these sad and confused people and then spits them out when it's grown tired and bored with them.

[Guest]

People in the public eye, especially in the fashion and entertainment industry, are especially at risk of getting sucked into the slippery slope of cosmetic surgery and becoming addicted. I think Bruce, like so many celebs, is quite simply *addicted* to cosmetic surgery. Our society is so obsessed with appearance that it tends for so many to trump pretty much everything else. It's a serious sickness. Please understand, I'm not talking about reconstructive surgery after an accident or to fix something like a cleft palette.. I'm referring to this notion that it's ok or even advisable to surgically tweak one's appearance in an effort to get just a little bit closer to some physical "ideal." Is it really any wonder that, for all-too-many who start down that road, searching for an ever-changing notion of what's "beautiful," it will NEVER end? There will always be one more nip or tuck that they need. It's really quite like the proverbial dog chasing its own tail. It might be comical if it wasn't so destructive how the world just chews up these sad and confused people and then spits them out when it's grown tired and bored with them.

It's one thing to get some nip/tuck/enhance surgery and quite another for a man to get gender reassignment starting with breast implants.

[theSQUIDSTER]

It's one thing to get some nip/tuck/enhance surgery and quite another for a man to get gender reassignment starting with breast implants.

 

True.  Most don't take it that far.  But I think, considering Bruce's history with cosmetic surgery, that this is just taking it to the next level for him.  Like other extreme-addict cases that you see on those "plastic surgery disasters" websites, this probably makes some kind of weird sense to him.  Maybe he thinks he can somehow be more beautiful and admired as a woman... and in today's confused world that probably translates to ---> "more beautiful" = "more admired" = "more fulfilled" ... 

[Pa Pa]

Growing up, I recall Bruce Jenner on the box of Wheaties cereal and recall his amazing decathlon Gold in the 1976 Olympics. I now read and apparently it is legit he is attempting to become a woman. I have no doubt that Mr. Jenner has some serious mental illness and shame on the medical community for treating this as anything other than a mental disorder.

 

At what point do we hold physicians so-called accountable for not seeking to heal rather than allowing an obviously sick person to continue the slide to the point of no return?

Doctors are afraid to say anything in today's environment concerning anyone about anything concerning themLBGT community, even in preschool, or any grand level...even though an alarming number of those seeking "Gender Reassignment" fall into deep depression and many commit suicide. We life in a world where it is abuse to speak out against anything. Thankfully we can still speak out about child abuse.

[davidstarfall]

I do not know anything about Bruce, nor do I care to know anything.. but I'd just like to make a few comments.

1) A difference between your biological gender and your personal "gender identity" (see Wikipedia) does not necessarily imply that you have a mental illness. I get the feeling that a lot of you will disagree with me on that point. And that is okay, I just hope you think about it.

2) Also, gender identity, and sexual preference can operate independent of one another. For example.. an individual that is male, and is attracted to females, is generally referred to as a heterosexual man. I actually have an acquaintance that is biologically female, and is attracted to men, but identifies as a man. Or in other words.. she self identifies as a gay man. To which some people reply "so you are straight?" and she (he?.. I haven't actually asked them yet which gender pronoun they prefer), has to go through this sort of discussion to help them understand. Do they want to have a sex change operation? No, its simply how they feel on the inside.

 

So is this Bruce person mentally ill? I don't know. Does he/she identify as a lesbian woman? I also don't know. I just wanted to possibly help people understand how this person may or may not be mentally ill. Some of you may be of the opinion that any gender and preference incongruity boils down to a mental illness. But I'd like to submit that that is not necessarily the case. Food for thought.

[Wants2Know]

Seriously. You people call yourself Mormons and Christians? Are you kidding me? This person is not mentally ill. Seriously. This is the most berating lds post I've read on here in years.

[Just_A_Guy]

That kind of freedom should be curtailed. It is without question mental illness and just as we would attempt to prevent other mentally ill people from harming themselves, the same should be done here. Attempting to become a woman by removing male sexual organs and using hormone therapy is criminal IMO and the patient is being abused by Dr's that should have there medical licenses revoked and face criminal prosecution.

In a Tribtalk session held right after the Church's statement on nondiscrimination legislation earlier this year, someone specifically asked Elder Oaks about gender identity issues and as I recall he openly acknowledged that we may yet receive additional revelation on that particular issue.

We know that mortals are subject to all sorts of birth defects, and I'm open to the theological possibility of a female spirit being born with male generalize (and vice versa). That said, I think parents who use such excuses to put their own kids under the knife while they are still minors are acting far more reprehensiblly than the much-maligned parents who send their gay kids off for reparative therapy.

Theologically speaking, Jenner is clearly ill in some way. But I have no idea whether the treatment Jenner has elected to receive is actually bringing him/her more closely in harmony with his/her perfected state, or driving him/her farther from it. So, I withhold judgment except for some general tut-tutting about the whole darned family being a bunch of inveterate publicity hounds.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Wants2Know]

Have any of you actually watched his interview? Are you therapists who can diagnose mental illness? He is not mentally ill. Gender identity is not an illness. You know not of what you speak.

[Leah]

Have any of you actually watched his interview? Are you therapists who can diagnose mental illness? He is not mentally ill. Gender identity is not an illness. You know not of what you speak.

What is your degree in?  Have you personally met Mr. Jenner? 

 

Or are you purporting that watching a television interview allows you and your whatever-degree to accurately and appropriately diagnose a total stranger?  Because if it's on TV, it's 100% accurate and true, right?  Just as true as Kim Kardashian's butt is "natural", right?

 

There is not one person on this planet who has all the answers to anything, much less the subject of gender identity.  We support the diagnosis of illness - mental or physical - in so many ways, yet anything that has to do with sex, the PC thing to say these days is that it's all good.  How dare anything get in the way of anyone when it comes to all things related to sex.  Whether it's gender identity, sexual orientation or any one of the labels that we like to use nowadays.

 

We can speculate that a mental illness (and isn't it really just a biological illness/disorder that manifests itself in a psychological way?) is at the root of x, y or z behavior....but if sex is any way involved.....nope, that has nothing to do with anything that might relate to an illness or disorder.  Say it ain't so, Joe.

 

We can speculate all we want that...for instance....a brutal sexual crime against a person may have contributed to X actions or behaviors.  Except when it comes to sex.  At least anything that involves same-gender sex.  We  understand that there have been instances where women have turned to promiscuity or become asexual in response to a brutal sexual assault, but we can't speculate that a similar assault might have resulted in a woman reacting in a way that involves same-gender sex.  It's to the point where you are vilified for even having a thought...for wondering if that is a possibility.

 

Do we know for absolutely sure that there is one and only once cause of something like same-sex attraction? Or transgenderism?  If you have that information, please do share it with us.

 

Even those who genuinely try to understand...I mean, I don't get it...from a purely logical viewpoint, I don't get it.  God made man and woman.  He made their bodies in such a way that they specifically fit together in order to create life.  But if you take two same-sex people, you cannot create more life without outside/artificial assistance. And once again, God created man AND woman.  Not just one sex/gender.

 

Yet, heterosexual people who believe that there is a God and that He had a purpose and design in creating man AND woman, we aren't allowed to have that belief anymore.  It's not enough that I have my beliefs and you have yours.  You want me to accept your beliefs while you reserve the right to reject mine.  And vilify me for it.  And discriminate against me for it. And try to deny me MY rights.

 

I don't "get" transgenderism.  I really don't.  I don't think it is possible for ANYONE who is not experiencing that situation to understand it.  But I get vilified for even not "getting" it.  For not jumping up and down and saying "Yay, I am so happy for you!".

 

We just won a wrongful termination case for a transgender client.  I did respond with "Yay, I am so happy for you!" in that instance.  To fire a person just for being transgender and just because you are uncomfortable with it, is wrong.  My co-workers are uncomfortable with the fact that I am Mormon (although, frankly, being "religious" in any way freaks them out), that I am not as wildly liberal as they are.  Should I be fired from my job because of that?

 

I was seriously happy for this client.  Even if I don't get transgender, I get that this person is a PERSON, they are kind, and sweet and were outstanding at their job.  But for some, it is no longer enough that I treat this client the same way I treat all clients (and other human beings).  I am being asked to toss aside the gospel as I know it, to toss aside my religious beliefs and say "Yep, you're right and I'm wrong".

 

And if you don't believe that that is what is happening and will only continue to get worse, then you are in denial.

 

Let the flaming being.......

[Wants2Know]

Leah, I happen to be a qualified mental health professional, yes. Transgender issues,are no more of an illness than being gay. The antagonism between being transgender and living in an intolerant world often create mental health issues, which in the world of transgender often results in suicide attempts. I can't stand by and watch others attack transgender people in this thread. I feel especially defensive perhaps,because of Jenner battling his iconic classification. I don't recall a specific post by you. But obviously, there's more on your mind you felt the need to get out. It seems particularly gnarly to me when "Mormons" ride the "I'm religious and just following the word of the Lord" defense when vilifying others, especially those in the light community. It is hypocritical and in my opinion absolutely in defiance of the Gospel.

[Guest MormonGator]

Leah, I happen to be a qualified mental health professional, yes. 

That's great that you are a qualified metal health professional. I'm not.  I also support Bruce Jenner. 

 

That said, your argument of "trust me, I'm a doctor" is fundamentally flawed. It's called an appeal to authority. I'm 100% sure you are a wonderful mental health professional, but keep in mind that sort of argument doesn't work. You can surely find other qualified mental health professionals that don't agree with you. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by MormonGator

[Wants2Know]

And by the way, it's fine that you dint "get it". It's very difficult to conceptualize. Hence, why it's important to listen and HEAR what someone like Jenner has to say about his experience. Maybe you will learn something :)

[Guest MormonGator]

And by the way, it's fine that you dint "get it". It's very difficult to conceptualize. Hence, why it's important to listen and HEAR what someone like Jenner has to say about his experience. Maybe you will learn something :)

it's also important that you listen as well. Leah made some great points. 

[jerome1232]

In what way is believing someone needs psychiatric help vilefying them?

[Vort]

And by the way, it's fine that you dint "get it". It's very difficult to conceptualize. Hence, why it's important to listen and HEAR what someone like Jenner has to say about his experience. Maybe you will learn something :)

 

I see two possibilities:

1. This is a failed attempt at tongue-in-cheek humor.
2. This is an authentically condescending remark, likely made with no conscious intent to be condescending. and thus all the more.

I'm curious to know which.

[Vort]

Seriously. You people call yourself Mormons and Christians? Are you kidding me? This person is not mentally ill. Seriously. This is the most berating lds post I've read on here in years.

 

Yes. Seriously. We people do indeed call ourselves Mormons AND Christians. No kidding.

 

How would you know whether Bruce Jenner is mentally ill? Have you done a psych evaluation on him?

 

You crow your "credentials" as "qualified", yet no "qualified" mental health professional would pretend to make a diagnosis in a case in which he has no first-hand knowledge. So you are being untruthful. Perhaps you're merely a troll -- not unlikely. Or perhaps you actually believe yourself to be qualified to make such a pronouncement, which ironically proves you utterly unfit so to do.

 

Kinda funny, when you think about it.

[Vort]

it's also important that you listen as well. Leah made some great points. 

 

You misunderstand, MormonGator. "Wants2Know" doesn't really want to know. His name should be "Wants2Lecture". You see, he already knows all truth, as can be told by the fact (well, by his statement) that he is a self-proclaimed Qualified Mental Health Expert. Never mind that the teachings of the last generation of Qualified Mental Health Experts are often disputed and even completely reversed by this generation, or that psychology is the least scientific of the so-called "sciences". He received his degree, so now he gets to tell you what's right, what's wrong, and what's evil about you making judgment calls.

 

And don't claim that his own ignorant judgments make him a vomitous hypocrite. Oh, no! Remember, he's a Qualified Mental Health Expert.

[Leah]

Leah, I happen to be a qualified mental health professional, yes. Transgender issues,are no more of an illness than being gay. The antagonism between being transgender and living in an intolerant world often create mental health issues, which in the world of transgender often results in suicide attempts. I can't stand by and watch others attack transgender people in this thread. I feel especially defensive perhaps,because of Jenner battling his iconic classification. I don't recall a specific post by you. But obviously, there's more on your mind you felt the need to get out. It seems particularly gnarly to me when "Mormons" ride the "I'm religious and just following the word of the Lord" defense when vilifying others, especially those in the light community. It is hypocritical and in my opinion absolutely in defiance of the Gospel.

 

 

If you are indeed a "qualified mental health professional"....a vague and unsubstantiated claim.....one would hope you would have enough knowledge to know that it is impossible and unprofessional to diagnose someone from a television interview.  Apparently, you either do not possess this knowledge or are not what you claim to be.

 

But thanks for proving my point.

 

And proving it even further in your laughable feeble attempt to diagnose me..a stranger on the internet.  Your hypocrisy is huge.

 

And your bigotry is obvious, as well.   You proved my point yet again. 

 

It is acceptable in today's society to be a bigot towards Mormons or religious people (or however you want to label this thing that threatens you so) and to display hatred and intolerance toward them.  It's okay for you not to even try to understand another person's viewpoint or allow them to the same freedom to live as they believe that you claim they are denying others.  But people like me who are trying to understand things like transgenderism, who do NOT discriminate or display the bigotry that you do....according to you because we are Mormon or religious, we shouldn't have the same rights that you do.

 

Hypocrite, much?

 

I know a man whose mother desperately wanted a baby girl.  But she gave birth to a boy - the man that I know.  But this twisted mother - from the day this guy was born - pretended that he was a girl.  Dressed him a girl.  Called him by a girl's name.  She lived the delusion that he was a girl in every way possible.

 

Then one day a family member stepped in when.  Years had already gone by.  The child thought he was a girl because that is what he had been told and how he had been treated. "Outsiders" thought he was a girl because that's what mom said he was and that's how he was dressed.

 

It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that this child had confusion about his gender.  But you - a supposed "mental health professional" would deny this man any help he would seek in sorting this out.  You wouldn't allow the question to be raised that just perhaps what his mother had done to him had caused some confusion for him.  Because apparently according to you that would be bigoted and intolerant. 

 

So...you have proved my point in your posts.   That if that had happened to me as a child, instead of being able to get professional help and sort through the impact of such strange actions by a parent, you would insist that I just....what...celebrate what happened to me as a child?

 

I am trying to understand other viewpoints.  You are deaf to anyone's but your own.  (Very bad quality for a "mental health professional".

 

You spew hatred and anger at Mormons or anyone who believes that God created man and woman with a plan in mind and believe it to be bigotry (it has to be, right, so it will fit your agenda" . But we're supposed to just shut up and accept your actual hatred, anger and bigotry.

 

People were murdered by the millions in Europe for being the "wrong" religion.  America is rapidly moving more and more to trying to rid the country of religion altogether.

 

I am glad to be as old as I am.   I don't want to see the chaos that is yet to come.  I will be happy to go home to my Heavenly Father.

[Leah]

And by the way, it's fine that you dint "get it". It's very difficult to conceptualize. Hence, why it's important to listen and HEAR what someone like Jenner has to say about his experience. Maybe you will learn something :)

 

You know, the more you post, the more you display your unprofessionalism and bigotry.

 

And "dint"?  Really? 

 

Your hypocrisy is staggering to one's mind.

 

You haven't heard a word I - or anyone else who doesn't kiss your ring - have said.  You make NO attempt to see other viewpoints.  That might sidetrack you from your hobbyhorse of judgmentalism and superiority.

 

If you had HEARD....you would know that I have listened to other's experiences.  (And, no, I didn't watch Bruce Jenner's interview because I don't watch anything that fame and money-hungry family does).  But I have talked to real people.  I have gotten my information from real people and not just a television screen like yourself.

 

And as much as I or anyone else who is NOT transgender or gay or bi or lesbian, might try to understand, might try to walk a mile in Bruce Jenner's shoes...it is simply not possible for us to understand!  Because we are NOT transgender or gay or bi or lesbian.

 

Surely a "mental health professional" would understand that.

 

If not, you are at the very least ripping off your patients..and possibly causing serious harm.

 

Now, I have MUCH better things to do this afternoon than engage with someone who has a mote in his eye the size of a Redwood.

[carlimac]

Vort-  Wants2Know could be a woman. Her/his profile doesn't specify. It just says " not telling".  I guess that doesn't matter. Neither here nor there these days.  

 

i saw some of the interview. Jenner seemed very sweet- more woman-like in mannerisms than manly. I don't know if that's changed because frankly I never followed Jenner at all. Barely even knew he was an Olympic athlete. I follow winter sports and gymnastics more than track events.   And I especially never followed him in the reality TV world. Not my thing. 

 

Despite the pronouncement by Wants2Know that he isn't mentally ill, all I can say is that if he wasn't before he started "transitioning" he certainly is now. * (see caveat below)  I suppose it depends on how one defines "illness" and "normal".  

 

From a simplistic, boiled down point of view, I see a person who is born with male genitalia, who claims he is heterosexual ( attracted to women) as he did in his interview, but *thinks* he is really is a woman is not normal- therefore mentally ill. It's just not what most men do. 

 

*  Actually, though,perhaps he's not really mentally ill- (not able without help to keep himself from becoming a woman)  but just overly focused on what he calls his womanly side in his interview. He didn't really say he is a "woman". He is simply exploring his womanly side. Sounds like it's something pretty fluid for him. He didn't say this was a permanent change. I think it's a stunt, a whim that he is enjoying immensely and milking for all it's worth. His past wives all said they were aware of his issues. I think he's finally gotten around to trying out being a woman for awhile. 

 

But people who do make those physical changes surgically have gone way past where Bruce Jenner is. He said he absolutely didn't want anyone hacking anything off.  My uneducated in the mental illness arena guess (aside from experiencing depression myself) is that those people are mentally ill or at the very least, profoundly confused. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by carlimac

[carlimac]

Here is an article that describes how "mental illness" is defined differently in different cultures and eras.  And how America now is trying to elbow their way to the top where we call the shots and define mental illness the way we think it should be defined.   

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/magazine/10psyche-t.html?_r=0

[Guest MormonGator]

You misunderstand, MormonGator. "Wants2Know" doesn't really want to know. His name should be "Wants2Lecture". You see, he already knows all truth, as can be told by the fact (well, by his statement) that he is a self-proclaimed Qualified Mental Health Expert. 

100% agree, but I just wanted to point out the logical fallacy in their argument. That whole "Trust me I'm a doctor" is a classic one. A first year student in college logic would notice that. 

 

Heck, my BA is English and even I got it. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by MormonGator

[bytor2112]

Oh, "transgenderism" is without any doubt a mental illness and Bruce Jenner is mentally ill. Wants2know, maybe a trained professional, but the training is in error. Show compassion for certain, but, let's not help the sick become sicker.

[Finrock]

I start with the axiom that we are all children of God and that mortality is not our natural condition. This life should be viewed and measured from the context of what is our ultimate purpose for being here on this earth. So, we all started out "healthy" as spirits. When we enter mortality we immediately become unhealthy due to the natural man. As we experience mortality we either progress towards a return to our natural state, which is being with God, or we digress further from our natural state by becoming more separated from God. Moving towards God is "healthy" whereas moving away from God is "unhealthy". The healthiest mental state possible is having the mind of God. Any deviation from this standard represents an illness to some degree.

 

Committing sin causes mental illness. If we exist in a state of rebellion against God to any degree, to that same degree we are suffering from a mental illness. When we live in sin or when we adopt sinful philosophies we are necessarily delusional and are suffering a form of mental illness.

 

Bruce Jenner is suffering from a severe form of mental illness and because our society in large measure is suffering from mental illness as well, it doesn't even recognize that this is a problem and should not be supported but rather we should be doing something to help this poor fellow and people like him.

 

We should be helping one another become more like Heavenly Father. We should be helping our brothers and sisters know who they are and what their potential is. When we forget this basic purpose and basic knowledge and we try to segregate life in to boxes then we do ourselves and others a disservice because we become enablers and supporters of behavior that will lead people to hell rather than to happiness and we will suffer right along side them. So, this isn't just a case where we can say, "Well, it doesn't hurt me, so why should I care?" If God didn't exist, and if we weren't brothers and sisters, and if the Plan of Salvation was false then maybe we could get away with stating that things like this don't hurt anybody so why should we care. But because God is real and because the Plan of Salvation is real it means that we are all affected by what each person does to some degree. Because we are all connected we ought to be fighting for the cause of Zion rather than just apathetically allowing the notions of what is normal and healthy to be degraded in society to the point where eventually anything and everything goes.

 

-Finrock