Wear ORANGE to Church day?

[Pa Pa]

More like Israel throwing itself under a bus, and its more of an anit-Israel attitude than an anti-Semitic attitude as more people are coming to realise how Israel is more interested in hindering the peace process than participating in it.

Knowing how many in the world wish all Jews dead...one can only wonder at why such a hard line. Having lived in West Germany many years, I would have not remained there and that was in the 1970's. Anti-Semitism is alive and well throughout the world, not just anti-Israel. Even the short history of our own faith is one in which we had to fight or flee. Put that is a context of 1,000's of years and you will understand, "Never Again". I grew up in Atlanta and our largest Jewish congregation on Peachtree St was bombed when I was a boy. We felt our windows shake. Edited April 19, 2015 by Pa Pa

[Guest MormonGator]

I saw a ton of orange today. It was wonderful to see. 

 

Than again, I'm so blessed. My ward is   
 

[pam]

I saw a ton of orange today. It was wonderful to see. 

 

Than again, I'm so blessed. My ward is   

 

 

Are you sure you just didn't notice it more today being aware of it?  

[Guest MormonGator]

Are you sure you just didn't notice it more today being aware of it?  

LOL! Very true. 

[prisonchaplain]

Wear protestant orange (as opposed to Catholic green?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_and_the_Green

 

It is a horrible situation though... what they need is not people wearing orange colors, they need help escaping. 

 

The victims were executed wearing orange. 

[prisonchaplain]

Sorry you misunderstood me so badly. I thought I was crystal clear in context, but apparently I was not.

 

Wearing special clothing or styles in order to make a political statement is inappropriate at Church, especially at our sacrament meeting.

 

Hope that's clear enough.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of the wearing of orange.  I thought it was to express solidarity with the Christian martyrs--not to make some political point.

[Guest]

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of the wearing of orange.  I thought it was to express solidarity with the Christian martyrs--not to make some political point.

"Expressing solidarity with the Christian martyrs" as it pertains to ISIS is a political point. You may not intend to be expressing a political view but ISIS is political, so you can't really avoid the implication.

[NightSG]

"Expressing solidarity with the Christian martyrs" as it pertains to ISIS is a political point. You may not intend to be expressing a political view but ISIS is political, so you can't really avoid the implication.

 

Free exercise of religion is political, so I guess we need to stop going to Sacrament meeting altogether.

[Guest]

Free exercise of religion is political, so I guess we need to stop going to Sacrament meeting altogether.

If that's how you feel, go ahead.

[prisonchaplain]

"Expressing solidarity with the Christian martyrs" as it pertains to ISIS is a political point. You may not intend to be expressing a political view but ISIS is political, so you can't really avoid the implication.

 

Executing Christian employees--non-combatants--in country, was an act of religious terrorism.  They died for their faith, not their country or their politics.

[Guest]

Executing Christian employees--non-combatants--in country, was an act of religious terrorism.  They died for their faith, not their country or their politics.

PC, this may appear this way to you but there is a reason ISIS is a STATE not just an organization. It may become difficult to parse the religion from the government when the government is theocratic but ISIS is a government. Christian employees are not the only targets. Muslims are also targets as evidenced by the Jordanian pilot who was burned alive for flying in a US-allied force.

This is about as religious a war as WWII was...

[pam]

I kind of happen to agree with PC.  These men died for their religion.  They were given a choice to convert to Islam or be executed. They chose to stand with their religion.

[prisonchaplain]

The orange-clad martyrs were executed because they were Christians.  That ISIS targets others for other reasons does not detract from the fact that these individuals were killed soley for their faith in Christ.  To honor slain martyrs, brothers in the faith, must not be construed as some kind of political statement--certainly not in an American church or ward. 

 

IMHO, unless a bishop forbids this action, the wearing of orange by Christians should be viewed much as flying a flag at half-mast.

[Guest]

The orange-clad martyrs were executed because they were Christians.  That ISIS targets others for other reasons does not detract from the fact that these individuals were killed soley for their faith in Christ.  To honor slain martyrs, brothers in the faith, must not be construed as some kind of political statement--certainly not in an American church or ward. 

 

IMHO, unless a bishop forbids this action, the wearing of orange by Christians should be viewed much as flying a flag at half-mast.

Like I said... the people who died may not have sacrificed themselves for political reasons but they were killed for political reasons.

The only reason why I insist on this is because you objected to Vort's statement that wearing orange is a political position. And I posit that the political implication of solidarity with the orange jumpsuits is unavoidable when the people making them wear the jumpsuits are doing so for political reasons.

It's like saying, I'm going to put Romney's button on my lapel because of his religious conviction. That may be, but Romney is a political figure so the political implication is unavoidable.

There are sooooo many hours of sooo many days where the opportunity of making a statement by wearing orange is present. Making this statement at an LDS Church is not the place unless Church Leadership instructs us to do so because of the unavoidable political implication.

Think of it this way... the person who created that anti-Muslim video did not have politics in mind. He simply had religious criticism in mind. Yet, the video ended up smack dab in the middle of a geo-political tinderbox after a US ambassador got killed in Benghazi. That's prime example that even though we may not intend these things to be political, they do have unavoidable political implications.

Edited April 21, 2015 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

If showing solidarity with Christian martyrs can be interpreted as political activism, then I would suggest that those in heaven, who cry out to the LORD, saying, "How much longer must the martyrs' blood go unanswered?" are guilty of the same impropriety.  I get the idea that siding with the dead, when there is warfare, can always be seen as political, but I disagree.  By that understanding, every veteran's funeral is political, and antiwar protestors might consider them open game.  

 

No.  Wearing orange is a way of honoring Christian martyrs.  If others choose to make me a political enemy because I honor my spiritual brothers--now fallen dead--then that is their delusion.  I'd be shocked and dismayed if my spiritual leaders took my orange as an inappropriate political protest. 

[Guest]

If showing solidarity with Christian martyrs can be interpreted as political activism, then I would suggest that those in heaven, who cry out to the LORD, saying, "How much longer must the martyrs' blood go unanswered?" are guilty of the same impropriety.  I get the idea that siding with the dead, when there is warfare, can always be seen as political, but I disagree.  By that understanding, every veteran's funeral is political, and antiwar protestors might consider them open game.  

 

No.  Wearing orange is a way of honoring Christian martyrs.  If others choose to make me a political enemy because I honor my spiritual brothers--now fallen dead--then that is their delusion.  I'd be shocked and dismayed if my spiritual leaders took my orange as an inappropriate political protest.

I don't understand how you concluded that political positions/statements are the stuff of impropriety. There is nothing wrong with making political statements/positions even when you DO intend to make one and not just an unintended implication. You can make political statements all day long... as a matter of fact, I do that a lot. The ONLY THING I'm saying (which is actually what Vort is saying, I just sided with him), is that an LDS SACRAMENT MEETING is not the place for it.

You are implying that because I don't agree with making such statements at Church unless instructed by Church Leadership that I, somehow, refuse to make a statement of solidarity with the fallen martyrs.

Your post above implies that I can make it known to all the world that I am wearing orange every single day, Monday to Saturday including my pajamas splashed on every corner of social media... but... as far as you're concerned, it doesn't count because I refuse to do it on the Sabbath.

Edited April 21, 2015 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

Anatess, let's pull this together.  I am saying that wearing orange AT A CHURCH OR WARD is appropriate.  I suppose it's like a widow wearing black at church for a week or two, after the funeral.

 

Of course you and Vort sympathize with the Christian martyrs.  Further, you probably agree with any political perspective one might interpret from an orange-wearer.

 

My whole contention is that wearing a color to sympathize with martyrs (again, non-combatants, who's only 'act' was to refuse religious conversion) should not be considered the kind of political-statement-making that is inappropriate in a sacred setting.

[Guest]

Anatess, let's pull this together.  I am saying that wearing orange AT A CHURCH OR WARD is appropriate.  I suppose it's like a widow wearing black at church for a week or two, after the funeral.

 

Of course you and Vort sympathize with the Christian martyrs.  Further, you probably agree with any political perspective one might interpret from an orange-wearer.

 

My whole contention is that wearing a color to sympathize with martyrs (again, non-combatants, who's only 'act' was to refuse religious conversion) should not be considered the kind of political-statement-making that is inappropriate in a sacred setting.

One more time... My opinion is that it is not appropriate unless Church Leaders instructs us to do so. You may wear whatever when you're mourning. This is not a statement encouraging other people to wear black as well and it is a tradition imbedded in religious observance. But, just from experience, there has been people who died in my father-in-law's ward who are spouses of one of the bishopric or stake leaders. The bishopric/stake leaders did not wear anything different seated infront of the congregation. White shirts, ho hum ties. Same as every other Sunday. I would be surprised if Marjorie Hinckley would have died the Friday before general conference instead of the Tuesday after that President Hinckley would wear something that attracts people to his period of mourning on General Conference. It's just not the LDS way of doing things. The white shirts is indicative of this cultural identity - the need to have the least distraction at worship service.

Wearing orange is okay - if it's just a private matter. But the Wear Orange for solidarity with Christian martyrs is not intended to be a quiet affair. It is intended to be noticed. And one thing we try not to do at Sacrament Meeting is to be noticed such that it distracts others from their worship... for example - someone sitting in the congregation may see this sea of orange ties and think these people are just flaunting their disagreement with Obama's foreign policy. Of course, if it is something that the Church is involved in - then Church Leadership will announce it at the pulpit and it is not a distraction anymore as it becomes a part of worship service.

Edited April 21, 2015 by anatess

[prisonchaplain]

I think we understand each other.  Some of our differing POV may be the result of religious culture.  Apparently part of it is how cautious we are about drawing attention away from the sacred.  I perceive that honoring fallen Christians is something that indirectly honors Christ.  I can understand that some would say that, no matter how well-intentioned, we would rather that, at least for this service, Christ only be honored in a direct, undistracted way.  Based on how this string has gone, I would guess that if the issue was raised, it would be up to the local bishop to provide direction.

[Guest]

I think we understand each other.  Some of our differing POV may be the result of religious culture.  Apparently part of it is how cautious we are about drawing attention away from the sacred.  I perceive that honoring fallen Christians is something that indirectly honors Christ.  I can understand that some would say that, no matter how well-intentioned, we would rather that, at least for this service, Christ only be honored in a direct, undistracted way.  Based on how this string has gone, I would guess that if the issue was raised, it would be up to the local bishop to provide direction.

Exactly.

[Anddenex]

I am still trying to figure out the misreading of Vort's response (scratches head)?

Edited April 21, 2015 by Anddenex

[Blackmarch]

there are a few ideas or principles i'd like to touch upon for thought.

the first one is the World's honor or honor of the world.- What does the world do to honor something or to try to incite change?
Lip service; either you raise flag or take upon you an image or name or say something and then go about your way and forget about it (think facebook, which is probably an extreme manifestation of it). In return you supposedly get glory or standing (somehow)
this is a form of unrealized hypocrisy.

in light of this if these men have inspired you in some manner or another to somehow draw closer to christ , then learn the lesson, live it, teach it - don't just stick it on a flag and wave it around. (why i tend to find a lot of the christian memes more or less annoying on FB)

 

Christ said to pray and worship in private, not on the street so that you may be seen- I'd be willing to wager good money that honoring good things is probably something similar.

third thing imagery.

As christians We are commanded to take upon us the name of Christ, as such we are commanded to live a life that is different or seperate from the worldly norms.
this life is divided up into 7 day periods, out of these 7 days we are told to set aside one day to specifically honor God.
out of this one day that is set aside to honor God, we as LDS are told to take one hour to come together make and renew our covenants in holiness, and testify of him and his work.

And what do we do, and while in his house, in the place and time that matters? we decide take upon us the name (or image) of someone or something else, literally. Whether it's santa, captain kirk, homer simpson, the cancer victims, rape victims, underprivilaged females, that mike fergeson fella, ford, or chevy, a building of worship, or some prophet or another. mostly without ever realizing it.



now if someone is going to have the name or image of something else upon them, having one that does support Christ is certainly better than one that does not. Which why i'd prefer to see an orange tie over looney toons tie.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways just a couple thoughts and a couple cents to think about. and just so folks are aware, for me this is a pretty small issue for the most part. if it ever starts getting out of hand then the leadership will call the people to repentance. I personally don't think that this specific instance it would be an issue of any size, altho the underlying principles are kind of troubling when i sit down and think them through... however the churchhouse is a house of learning and basically the in-between point between us and the temple in terms of holy abodes- and we all have our sins and weaknesses, every single one of us who goes through the doors, all of which paint different names on us on the inside (in which repentence cleanses us from). So there really isn't any good reason to take offense or alarm on this point. 

quite frankly this issue is small enough that people should be able to learn what's good and what's better on their own in their own timeframe.

[The Folk Prophet]

Soon I won't be able to wear any of my ties without inadvertently making some sort of statement.

[Blackmarch]

It's what i get for taking time to think about something >.<

[askandanswer]

This is probably a bit of a side issue, but I note with interest that several hymns in our current hymn book seem to have some similarity with what might be considered to be political statements - I'm thinking of the nationalistic hymns and anthems that occupy the last few pages of the hymn book. Of particular interest are a few lines from hymn number 34, O ye mountains hymn, written by a former member of the First Presidency

 

Thy deliv'rance is nigh; thy oppressors shall die;

And thy land shall be freedom's abode

 

The lyrics of God Save the King (hymn 341) seem to express a strong desire for a monarchy, which sounds a little like a political statement, and lets not forget hymn number 80, of which the last six words of each of the three verses is lest we forget, lest we forget.

 

Of course, when these hymns are sung in a sacrament meeting, we can assume that they are sung with the approval of the presiding officer, and therefore the singing of these hymns  cannot be interpreted as individuals making political statements -although it might create some interesting opportunities for a sneaky musical director.

Edited April 25, 2015 by askandanswer