Law of Chastity and self-control in marriage

[Guest MormonGator]

You and I may be from different planets

 Dude, I inhabit my own planet. As the immortal Thomas Jefferson said, I am an island of one. 

[Guest MormonGator]

This is true, but these same people I think don't fully value it, or understand what it is. Like a drug it is abused. IMHO who undervalues a narcotic, the man using it to responsibly manage pain or the man abusing it, obsessing over it and destroying his life for it? The abuse cheapens the value I think.

 You and Vort both make some good points. I see where you are both coming from and I agree. 

[Guest MormonGator]

This is an interesting perspective, and I agree. I just can't decide whether society is overrating or undervaluing sex. 

 Bit of both, in my view. I know I sound prudish (guilty as charged) but you have to make a huge effort to avoid the sexual influence of our culture. You have to avoid 75% of mainstream "entertainment" if you don't want to poison yourself. 

I absolutely love paintings, and I often find myself defending artwork that others might find offensive. It's strange to me to be "that guy" who does now! lol.

 

 IE-Edgar Degas was masterful at painting the female body. Some people might find that offensive, but there is strong artistic merit there. Degas also shows a staggering range of emotion in these paintings.

That's different of course than prime time sex jokes. 

Edited October 14, 2015 by MormonGator

[Vort]

Pooping is overrated, until you can't do it anymore.

 

I took a class (technically an internship) at Penn State in their bionegineering program. One unit was on implantable organ replacements, and we did some fairly intensive study on kidney transplants. Those awaiting such transplants are often reduced to weekly or twice-weekly dialysis to cleanse their blood while waiting for an organ that might take years to come, if it ever does.

 

Because of the potential that such recipients might not urinate for years at a time, I asked the head researcher/doctor in the unit whether such people found urination painful when they resumed. He laughed and responded that it was quite the opposite. He told us that people don't realize how good it feels to urinate, until they can't do it any more. We take it for granted, because for us it is a granted. But his quote, which I copied verbatim and used for my unit writeup, was something like: "When you go into a group of kidney transplant recipients, you've never seen so many people peeing and smiling."

Edited October 14, 2015 by Vort

[Latter-Day Marriage]

This is an interesting perspective, and I agree. I just can't decide whether society is overrating or undervaluing sex. 

I would say the devalue it, drag it into the gutter of selfish pleasure seeking rutting then make an idol of that twisted version of it.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

 

IE-Edgar Degas was masterful at painting the female body. Some people might find that offensive, but there is strong artistic merit there. Degas also shows a staggering range of emotion in these paintings.

That's different of course than prime time sex jokes. 

Yes, there is a vast difference between honoring the beauty of the female form and crass titillation.

[Str8Shooter]

My thoughts were "is this guy a man or some 15 - year-old?"

He is both.

[omegaseamaster75]

He is both.

aren't we all?

[Backroads]

Husband says there is also an 8-year-old boy living inside every guy.

[Vort]

Husband says there is also an 8-year-old boy living inside every guy.

 

That explains why I'm 30 pounds overweight. I'm really 30 pounds underweight, with an eight-year-old boy living inside me.

[jerome1232]

That explains why I'm 30 pounds overweight. I'm really 30 pounds underweight, with an eight-year-old boy living inside me.

I know people who read the scriptures just like that.

[Guest]

Hmmm. I don't agree with this part. I think that, in general, sex is vastly underrated. It is one of the truly transcendent things we can participate in, yet people talk about it and treat it as if it were a mere bodily function, like eating or sleeping or pooping.

Well, if we want to get technical, I think sex is overratted.  Making love is underrated.

 

To the OP:  I wonder if either there is some other cause of dysfunction in the relationship or if this guy has another agenda.  If this is a surprise, then I would assume that this is the couple's first child.  Some men simply cannot handle the idea of being responsible for another life that is so fragile.  OR he has a desire to be with another woman or other women and he is blocked by this marriage.

 

1) He just wasn't ready for that responsibility and he's using this as an excuse.

2) He really wants to get out of the marriage and he's using this as an excuse.

 

Either way it may just be an excuse.  Either way (assuming all this is on the up and up) this guy needs to be 8!+@h-slapped for 20 minutes and told to man up.

[NightSG]

But leaving a wife AND A NEWBORN BABY over 6 weeks of no sex... even NIcholas Sparks can't cook up that dumb of a character without very extensive and exhaustive back story to make it believable.

Don't bet on it; I once dated a woman whose ex husband packed up and left because she lost her (admittedly very impressive) figure when she was pregnant and he didn't think she would get it back. She did, and he tried to get her to stop the divorce when he saw her a couple months after the birth, (Texas won't finalize a divorce while the woman is pregnant) but she was smart enough to get him on tape admitting his reason, and used it to get his parental rights terminated, (since he hadn't made any attempt to even see his daughter) then moved across the state without leaving a forwarding address.

[Bini]

Mods: I submit to your call on this thread as this seems at least a grey area.

So I follow a group on Facebook where there was a recent discussion on a new mom who says her husband has threatened possibly leaving her over the no-sex-for-six-weeks-after-childbirth advice. This led to quite the emotions from people and several stories where partners did actually leave, allegedly over the lack of sex for six weeks.

So, assuming such reports as true, is the LoC really so ignored that a legitimate lack of sex for a period of time qualifies as a reason to leave a marriage? Are those who practice chastity in possession of a stronger sense of self-control?

 

You'd have to live in a bubble if you can convince yourself that there isn't a spouse out there that has left their partner over something outrageously ridiculous as this. I would agree that most men aren't going to divorce their wife based on no-sex-for-six-weeks-postpartum BUT plenty have broken vows by engaging in pornography and or physical affairs outside of their marriage. I got friends that were still pregnant when their husband/boyfriend cheated on them in one way or another. So as far as that goes, it's common.

[Guest MormonGator]

 I got friends that were still pregnant when their husband/boyfriend cheated on them in one way or another. So as far as that goes, it's common.

 I have male friends whose wives whose wives cheated on them and then cleaned them out in their divorce. So it goes both ways. One girl in particular messed around, got herself pregnant and then walked out on her husband of four years.  "Original sin" (or human weakness, whatever you want to call it) includes both men and women.  

Edited October 21, 2015 by MormonGator

[Bini]

 I have male friends whose wives whose wives cheated on them and then cleaned them out in their divorce. So it goes both ways. One girl in particular messed around, got herself pregnant and then walked out on her husband of four years.  "Original sin" (or human weakness, whatever you want to call it) includes both men and women.  

 

We're talking specifically about women in postpartum. That's what I understood this thread to be about. 

[Guest MormonGator]

We're talking specifically about women in postpartum. That's what I understood this thread to be about. 

 My apologies. 

[Guest]

Last time my husband had a baby, I was extremely patient through his recovery.

[Vort]

We're talking specifically about women in postpartum. That's what I understood this thread to be about. 

 

 

I don't think that's quite right. In her OP, Backroads said:

 

So, assuming such reports as true, is the LoC really so ignored that a legitimate lack of sex for a period of time qualifies as a reason to leave a marriage? Are those who practice chastity in possession of a stronger sense of self-control?

 

The specific example was a husband cheating on his post-partum wife, but the larger question was about chasity in marriage and whether those who practice chastity have "a strong sense of self-control". I think tMormonGator's comments fit nicely into the discussion.

 

I also happen to agree with him, having seen personally and up close the result of an abusive, unfaithful wife leaving her husband, then making vile and false accusations so that his access to his daughters is curtailed. All too often such discussion (even on this list) dies with a handwave and a comment amounting to "Yeah, maybe that happens sometimes, what a pity, but let's get back to the meat of the discussion and how awful those cheating, abusive men are."

[Backroads]

If either partner feels entitled to sex (and I do agree a marriage does tend to give a righteous expectation of sex, but I speak of a selfish entitlement), that the excuse "I deserve sex wherever I can get it without regards to my spouse", there's a problem.

Yet I think this is becoming part of culture. Sure, society still will usually condemn a cheater, but people seem to be getting more comfortable with justification.

[Guest MormonGator]

If either partner feels entitled to sex (and I do agree a marriage does tend to give a righteous expectation of sex, but I speak of a selfish entitlement), that the excuse "I deserve sex wherever I can get it without regards to my spouse", there's a problem.

 

 Exactly. Sex should be a sign of love, and it should never, ever be forced.    

[NightSG]

One girl in particular messed around, got herself pregnant and then walked out on her husband of four years.

I think you may have missed some important parts of the birds and bees talk.

 

[Raidiator Vehicle]

I am very late to this discussion, so I doubt that the following advice will be useful to the person who originated it. However, the following advice may be useful to others: Specific actions as well as fasting and prayer are required in many cases to overcome a strong sex drive at times when sex is inappropriate. In fact, fasting itself can be a very beneficial action in this arena because Concentration Camp survivors indicated that they lost all desire for intercourse as time progressed. Jesus said that His disciples would fast oft, i.e., once the Bridegroom (Himself) was no longer with them. Many of the troubles Church members experience could be avoided or minimized if we all (with reasonable exceptions such as little children and pregnant women) fasted often. Also, there are dietary principles in the Word of Wisdom that will aid us in this and many other trials when we are not fasting, e.g., minimizing the consumption of meat. Men may also need to take cold showers and do other things that first show resolve on their part to become better disciples while also praying earnestly that they will not be tempted beyond their ability to resist. That is, these and other useful actions outwardly demonstrate faith, which is then rewarded. 

I fully understand that the foregoing advice isn't easy to take, but consider this: do you think you will be more successful jumping down a flight of stairs than taking them one step at a time? You know that you risk great pain if you try to do this, perhaps even physical death. Do you want to experience great spiritual pain or death by being or remaining a slave to your physical appetites? The scriptures contain many commandments and discourses; we liken them to an iron rod for our salvation. Here, I liken less explicit advice to a wooden handrail for safely going up or down emotional stairs.

That is, to confine my argument and advice to this specific situation, you may not think of coercing your wife to have sex at such times is more than a little begging, hardly a sin at all. You may be right, but you are being neither safe nor considerate. That is, the analogy of the wooden handrail on your stairs in your home applies, even if it is no iron rod, I.e., even if there is no specific Scriptural injunction against such inappropriate desires and activities. If you still think you are right, why don't you remove the handrails from your stairs and get back to me after you have experienced a tumble or two? I could also show you some interesting bumps and bruises along these and other lines, but I hope that a word to the wise is sufficient.

You also have a Bishop and LDS Social Services to help you in trying times and situations. I have used both in the past and have an appointment with my Bishop next Sunday. In the meanwhile, I am reading appropriate Scriptures and other items such as relationship advice focused on the specific issues that LDS members face, which is how I stumbled upon this website and this particular thread. For your information, as a fairly recent widower, I need to apply the same principles and actions I outline above, so this is not me saying do as I say and not as I do. 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Raidiator Vehicle
Typos

[Bad Karma]

I've too much respect for Mrs. Karma, sure, my drive is quite healthy, but the love and respect for her even greater so. Toss in a new Baby into the mix, I'd find endless patience, especially in Mrs. Karma presenting me with a new addition to the family. Interestingly enough, Mrs. Karma and I have oft discussed the possibility of a Little Karma. Makes me think warm thoughts. We're kind of up there in years though, but still, warm thought. 6 weeks no nookie for that cause? Meh, I could and would do it for sweet Mrs. Karma. 

[Latter-Day Marriage]

Waiting 6 weeks is perfectly normal, we had to do iit after each of our 6 kids were born.  Mind you, being there seeing her give birth made the first 4 weeks kind of easy.  Still there are other things a couple can do to be intimate during that time.  I have no respect for somebody who would bail on a marriage for such selfish reasons.