Are You A Closet Communist?

[Guest MormonGator]

 

 

 

While this is a mildly humorous parody of Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land," it reflects a violent and Satanic vision of society that I doubt anyone on this list would care to experience. There is certainly nothing in it that reflects the values taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

 True, but it's tongue in cheek. With the increasing growth of government telling churches what to do, it raises some troubling questions.  

You can't force virtue either. If you force it, it loses it's moral value 

Edited October 20, 2015 by MormonGator

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

What I'm getting out of this is that so far, I'm the only non-communist? And I know people more libertarian than I am.

Maybe I don't belong here.

Because you think we might bite or we might rub off on you?

[Guest]

While this is a mildly humorous parody of Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land," it reflects a violent and Satanic vision of society that I doubt anyone on this list would care to experience. There is certainly nothing in it that reflects the values taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

You're seriously going to get on me about this after you pulled the "Burn Notice" gag?

[pkstpaul]

5. Do you believe the government should start public works programs to rebuild infrastructure, provide affordable housing, and clean up the environment?

 

Where is there 'force' in this? There is a place for government to close gaps where private initiatives fall short. Do you think Uber is going to pay for bridges so it can stay in business? No. Should General Mills go to a 'company store' to provide minimal housing for its low end workers? 

[Vort]

You're seriously going to get on me about this after you pulled the "Burn Notice" gag?

 

Heck yes!

 

Look, it isn't my fault if I watch high-end documentaries and you don't. It just keeps me all informed and stuff.

[Just_A_Guy]

Where is there 'force' in this? There is a place for government to close gaps where private initiatives fall short. Do you think Uber is going to pay for bridges so it can stay in business? No. Should General Mills go to a 'company store' to provide minimal housing for its low end workers? 

 

The "force" comes from compelling people who would rather not pay for such programs, to pay for them anyways--at the risk of imprisonment (or, in the face of continued resistance, death) if they refuse to fork over their hard-earned money.

 

There are some government functions which are so exigent that such force is necessary and appropriate; but the list of such critical functions is not as broad as many Americans like to think it is--because a free market is generally more powerful than most Americans comprehend, and government is more prone to corruption than we want to acknowledge.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Just_A_Guy

[Blackmarch]

Answer the following questions to determine if you are a closet communist.

 

1. Do you believe the government should put people and the environment before profits by companies?

2. Do you believe the government should legislate equality and social justice?

3. Do you believe the government should radically reform for profit companies to make them more worker friendly?

4. Do you believe the government should allow a person to stay on unemployment until he finds a job?

5. Do you believe the government should start public works programs to rebuild infrastructure, provide affordable housing, and clean up the environment?

6. Do you believe that you are free under democracy?

7. Do you believe the government should expand the food stamp program?

8. Do you believe the government should institute and control all health care insurance?

9. Do you believe the government should have the Social Security program?

10. Do you believe the government should give out cash welfare payments (AFDC)?

11. Do you believe the government should outlaw prayer in school?

12. Do you believe the government should treat behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists/psychologists can understand or treat?

13. Do you believe the government should mandate a high minimum wage?

 

 

If you answered yes to any of these questions, you've got a problem.  I went to various communist web sites and socialist organizations and made up these questions based on the content of those sites.  Every one of these questions is about force, the same as Satan's plan.  He wanted to require everyone to do the right things without giving anyone free agency to choose for themselves. 

1. Of course not, when people poison the environment that sustains you, the proper response should be to kill them before they can hurt you further.

[Guest]

Vort, I do have a lot of love for you.  But I disagree on many of your points.

 

Most of your arguments center around,”Well, sorta. But only if, and you really want to.”  This opens the door to too much judgment about how much and when.  That’s how we got into this mess.  Where are the rules?  They were supposed to be in the Constitution.  But with “interpreting” and seeing it as a “living breathing entity” is how we got into this mess.

 

Do you believe the government should put people and the environment before profits by companies?

 

As I stated.  We need a balance.  I even provided a path forward.

 

Do you believe the government should legislate equality and social justice?

 

The problem I had was the word “legislate”.  We cannot legislate equality.  We cannot legislate social justice.  To attempt to do so would require an overreach of government.

 

Therefore.  NO. 

 

Do you believe the government should radically reform for profit companies to make them more worker friendly?

 

The operative part: government should reform companies.  No.  Companies large and small should be punished for welching on contracts or using force to coerce anyone.  This is not “reforming” companies.  It is punishing guilt.

 

Therefore, NO.

 

Do you believe the government should allow a person to stay on unemployment until he finds a job?

 

I don’t believe it is the proper role of government to pay unemployment benefits at all.

 

Therefore, NO.

 

 Do you believe the government should start public works programs to rebuild infrastructure, provide affordable housing, and clean up the environment?

 

Answered.

Do you believe that you are free under democracy?

 

This is more than “democracy vs republic”.  It also says, ”As long as we vote for it, then it’s right.”

 

NO.

 

Do you believe the government should expand the food stamp program?

 

NO.  There should be no government funded charity program.

 

Do you believe the government should institute and control all health care insurance?

 

This is not loaded.  It is simply not the government’s role to INSTITUTE and CONTROL a common business practice.  Enforce contracts, keep people honest, and let the market find a balance.

 

NO.

 

Do you believe the government should have the Social Security program?

 

“No. But …”  While I understand the position “I don’t agree with it, but we’re stuck with it, so…”  The answer is still a NO.  We SHOULD NOT have such a program.

 

Do you believe the government should give out cash welfare payments (AFDC)?

 

“No. What a horrible idea.”

Agreed.

 

Do you believe the government should outlaw prayer in school?

 

I understand the detailed objections.  But the question as worded here with no modifiers – NO, they should not.

 

Do you believe the government should treat behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists/psychologists can understand or treat?

 

I would not trust a government run agency to make the determination on who is crazy and who is not.  That’s simply the inmates running the asylum.

NO.

 

Do you believe the government should mandate a high minimum wage?  Again, a free market question.  I have to say NO.

 

I have clarity on these issues.  The common argument is always some variation of "Well if the government doesn't do that, then we'll have these problems."  That is irrelevant.  My only concern is if it is the proper role of government.

 

Life, Liberty, & Property with the exceptions as outlined in the Constitution.

[Guest]

While we're at this, we need to differentiate between socialism and communism.  All these ideas are actually socialism, not communism.  True communism would really have no government.  Which I also think is bad.

 

As for socialism vs capitalism: 

   Capitalism pits man against man.  Under socialism, it's vice-versa.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Guest

[Traveler]

Answer the following questions to determine if you are a closet communist.

 

1. Do you believe the government should put people and the environment before profits by companies?

2. Do you believe the government should legislate equality and social justice?

3. Do you believe the government should radically reform for profit companies to make them more worker friendly?

4. Do you believe the government should allow a person to stay on unemployment until he finds a job?

5. Do you believe the government should start public works programs to rebuild infrastructure, provide affordable housing, and clean up the environment?

6. Do you believe that you are free under democracy?

7. Do you believe the government should expand the food stamp program?

8. Do you believe the government should institute and control all health care insurance?

9. Do you believe the government should have the Social Security program?

10. Do you believe the government should give out cash welfare payments (AFDC)?

11. Do you believe the government should outlaw prayer in school?

12. Do you believe the government should treat behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists/psychologists can understand or treat?

13. Do you believe the government should mandate a high minimum wage?

 

 

If you answered yes to any of these questions, you've got a problem.  I went to various communist web sites and socialist organizations and made up these questions based on the content of those sites.  Every one of these questions is about force, the same as Satan's plan.  He wanted to require everyone to do the right things without giving anyone free agency to choose for themselves. 

 

I believe in the government that we call the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of G-d.  The governments of this world I consider to some degree or another failing and poor copies.  Unlike many capitalists I believe that economic freedom is a fundamental element of being free.  I believe that "Big" companies are as evil and a threat to liberty and freedom as is "Big" government.  In fact - from my interpretation of scripture the capitalistic pursuit of profit (love or desire for money) is the single most potent corrupting and evil agent of corrupt governments, societies and even households.

 

I believe that the patterns of food stamps, Social Security and welfare as established by every government I have studied are contrary to the very principles of freedom and liberty and robe those stuck is such programs of their rights and freedom of self determination.  I believe the LDS fast offering and tithing to be the nearest principles of freedom and liberty of any society on earth.  No one should think themselves exempt from contributing to their own and others welfare.

[prisonchaplain]

 

 

1. Do you believe the government should put people and the environment before profits by companies?

2. Do you believe the government should legislate equality and social justice?

3. Do you believe the government should radically reform for profit companies to make them more worker friendly?

4. Do you believe the government should allow a person to stay on unemployment until he finds a job?

5. Do you believe the government should start public works programs to rebuild infrastructure, provide affordable housing, and clean up the environment?

6. Do you believe that you are free under democracy?

7. Do you believe the government should expand the food stamp program?

8. Do you believe the government should institute and control all health care insurance?

9. Do you believe the government should have the Social Security program?

10. Do you believe the government should give out cash welfare payments (AFDC)?

11. Do you believe the government should outlaw prayer in school?

12. Do you believe the government should treat behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists/psychologists can understand or treat?

13. Do you believe the government should mandate a high minimum wage?

 

 

 

The fallacy of this type of questionnaire is that I can answer yes and no to each.  Observe:

 

1. Yes. If people & environment are threatened by an illegal polluter, govt should intervene.

     No. The market will protect both, because people can always boycott offender companies.

 

2.  Yes.  Govt action brought greater gender and racial equality to our society.

      No.  Govt is oppressing Christians to protect LBGT. 

 

3.  Yes. Companies use to hire children and work people long hours in unsafe conditions.

     No. Govt often destroys industries by trying to right alleged wrongs.

 

4.  Yes. I paid my insurance, I should get to use it when I need it for as long as I need it.

     No. People are lazy and will coast for as long as they are allowed to.

 

5.  Yes.  Clean environment and roads are worth paying for, and some projects are too big for people or communities.

     No.  The market can do all of this better.  Use contracts and social pressure instead.

 

6.  Yes.  Let us not quibble over semantics.  The U.S. is not North Korea or China.  We are one of the most free society's in history.

     No.  Govt takes half my income, is forcing Pro-Life people to pay for killing babies, and subjects us to many indignities in the name of a perceived threat to security.

 

7.  Yes.  Poor people should be fed.  Jesus said so.

     No.  I can feed poor people if I want to, but govt should not make me.

 

8.  Yes.  Good people do not let sick/dying people go untreated, when it is available.

     No.  Govt-run healthcare is less innovative, and people will die because of the drag on medical invention caused by bureaucracy.

 

9.  Yes.  I paid my retirement insurance, and I expect to help.  It helps lower income people have some support that they contributed to, so is better than Welfare.

     No.  It's inefficient, offers poor returns, and robs from today's workers to pay yesterday's.

 

10. Yes.  It's faster, more honest (we know we're throwing money at the poor), and it takes fewer bureaucrats.

     No.  The needy should get help from private charity--there's more accountability.  Why is govt competing with them?

 

11. Yes.  There are too many religions in America, and any non-sectarian one is an insult to all of them.

     No.  This country is super-majority Christian, and the occasional benediction does more to unify than harm.

 

12. Yes. Psychology and Psychiatry are professional, and govt should support evidence-based programming.

     No.  Let people choose their paths to healing.  Spiritual approaches--or even blended ones--are often more effective.

 

13. Yes. Students can get internships. Workers should be paid enough to live. 

     No. A part-time entry-level job is the best beginning to a liveable-wage future.  Cut off the lowest wage jobs, and some will never start working, due to lack of skills and job history.

 

My only point:  People of good will can answer intelligently on either side of these questions, and not be supporters of the CPUSA.

 

Edited October 20, 2015 by prisonchaplain

[The Folk Prophet]

What I'm getting out of this is that so far, I'm the only non-communist?  And I know people more libertarian than I am.

 

I find that conclusion offensive.

[Guest]

Incidentally, there is no evidence that Satan's plan was force.

In the sprit of "fun" that you cited earlier, let's talk about this. I suppose we must first agree on what constitutes evidence and what doesn't. You and I were both present during the events connected with Satan's plan, but we don't remember what we witnessed. So in addition to scripture what should we consider? Will we find, I wonder, unanimity in statements made by Apostles and Prophets. Will we find assertions that Satan's plan included force, or assertions that force was not involved?

[The Folk Prophet]

In the sprit of "fun" that you cited earlier, let's talk about this. I suppose we must first agree on what constitutes evidence and what doesn't. You and I were both present during the events connected with Satan's plan, but we don't remember what we witnessed. So in addition to scripture what should we consider? Will we find, I wonder, unanimity in statements made by Apostles and Prophets. Will we find assertions that Satan's plan included force, or assertions that force was not involved?

 

If assertions constitute evidence, then sure.

 

If scriptural veracity constitutes evidence, then the only thing we know is that Satan's plan was to remove our agency. As free choice is only one element of agency, then it is only one possibility as to the way Satan may have planned to try and accomplish this. Of course Satan's entire plan was a lie and he could not have accomplished what he proposed...but I digress.

 

The general idea that Satan's plan was to force us all was, admittedly, the core understanding that I grew up with, and most of us as well. It is the obvious interpretation based on the simple, incomplete understanding of agency that most of us have. They also used to call it "free agency" commonly, but have changed (usually now only calling it agency or moral agency) due to the misunderstandings developed.

 

Agency does not equal freedom. But many people think of it as nothing more that this, and so they translate: Satan's plan to remove agency was a plan to remove freedom.

 

But we have our freedoms removed all the time. Most of human history involves severe restrictions of freedoms at one level or another. And even in a "free" country, we may have our freedoms removed through bondage, abuse, jail, etc...

 

And yet we know, also from scripture, that our agency is a gift from God that cannot be taken away by anyone.

 

So how does that work? If agency is freedom, then if a mad man comes into your home, binds you to a chair, gags you, and removes a great deal of your ability to choose, then have you lost your agency?

 

No.

 

You still have the God given gift to choose your own salvation or damnation.

 

Yes, choice is a part of it. But that aspect alone is insufficient to quality as agency.

 

Understanding this, all Satan would have to do is offer salvation to all (something we know he did) and bobs-yer-uncle -- agency removed. It would have nothing to do with forcing us to do anything. It simply removes the choice to be damned.

 

It also seems quite reasonable that the idea that we could do whatever we wanted and still be saved -- a clear removal of agency -- would be significantly more appealing than the idea that we'd come to earth and be forced slaves of good works.

 

It may well be that force was a part of Satan's plan. But even if that is true, it is unlikely to be the only aspect of his plan, and whereas agency is only about our right to choose one thing (salvation or not) then the idea wouldn't reasonably be universally applied to all action.

 

The equation of government restrictions fails in so many ways as an analog to agency. It is not. Even a hugely oppressive government with all sorts of crazy laws and punishments has nothing to do with Satan's plan or the removal of agency.

 

Think about it. What is God's plan ultimately.

 

In a nutshell, we come to the earth and are given commandments (laws), which if we break we will be punished and if we keep or repent we will be rewarded.

 

Punishment for the breaking of laws is God's plan -- not Satan's.

 

Oh...I know there's this new-found hippy trend that God doesn't actually "punish" anyone and our rewards will be according to our desires. But it's nonsense. Failure to act and accordingly losing out on something is literally punishment. One might as well make the argument that jail doesn't constitute government punishment because the inmates obviously really wanted to be there or they wouldn't have made the choices they did.

 

I mean, seriously, on this level it's like people have not even bothered to turn their brains on. Whether you consider loss of the Celestial Kingdom "punishment" or not, it's very, very plain that Satan's plan was to save EVERYONE. No punishment. So how is it that some are trying to now equate punishment for anything with Satan's plan?

 

Democracy, socialism, tyranny...all governments enforce laws through punishment. There's nothing wrong with that. The right or wrong of it comes into the matter of justice. Just punishment is right. Unjust punishment is not.*

 

*Edit: This could be also said of reward.

Edited October 20, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

 Will we find assertions that Satan's plan included force, or assertions that force was not involved?

 

This is another aspect of agency that is often overlooked when discussing the war in heaven (we now seem to be merging threads).  The loss of agency vs. force is not the paradigm that was presented.  It was simply not having the choice at all to do evil.

 

To illustrate: I cannot fly (like Superman).  It’s not that I choose not to fly.  I simply can’t do it.  I can wish to.  I can want to.  I can try.  I can jump…  But I cannot fly.  My only option is to use the means of locomotion available to me on the ground.  Others aren’t even gifted with the ability to walk on their own.

 

What if EVERY choice we take for granted were like that?  What if, even the desire to fly were simply a thought we were completely unable to have?  We simply cannot fathom such a world because we take agency for granted.

 

Thus we’ve imagined Satan standing over our shoulders with a whip and catching us before we can make any false step.  But even in that world, we have choice.  We can still WANT to do evil, which is also a sin which causes us to fall short of the glory of God.  So, this is not the world Satan proposed.  His world was completely without choice.

 

While such a world could exist, this would completely wipe out the notion of learning and growth.  We must pass through sorrow to know the good from the bad.

 

So, what does this have to do with Government?

 

Since agency is an unalienable gift from God, neither man nor devil can take it away.  So evil men try to do the same thing.  They oppress and enslave.  If you think this is an all or nothing game, you’ve missed the big picture.  Why do you think there are multiple degrees of glory?  If Satan can’t get you to Perdition, he’ll settle for keeping you out of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

Every time we are forced to do something against our will, we are enslaved a little.  It is true that any kind of earthly government or economic system will do this at least to some degree.  And it is also true that the free market under a Republic constrained by the US Constitution and Bill of Rights will provide the most freedom of any system yet developed.

[Guest]

If assertions constitute evidence, then sure.

 

If scriptural veracity constitutes evidence, then the only thing we know is that Satan's plan was to remove our agency. ...

Yes, *if* assertions constitute evidence, which is encompassed in my question. If we accept assertions made by Apostles and Prophets we will find assertions on both sides. If we go strictly by scriptural veracity we're still left with assertions such as about the difference between Satan trying to "remove" our agency and destroy it (Moses 4:3). We're left, too, with assertions such as the ones you offered above--don't misunderstand me: I don't disagree with them, at least not at first sight. So, in the end we have scriptures which we can assert back and forth about the interpretation thereof, we have conference talks and journals, hymns, but no evidence (similar to your statement) that ought to cause us to reject out-of-hand an isolated statement about Satan using force, or accept it without more thought. Which, I suppose, is all you really intended. 

[Vort]

The danger of the "Satan tried to force everyone to do good!" misrepresentation is that it naturally extends to an extreme libertarian/anarchic philosophy. "Laws? They are of SATAN! You can't FORCE me to be good!" How many times have we heard people -- even Saints -- use the idea of "force" to argue against laws such as prohibition of elective abortion? Somehow, such people never seem to mind laws against forcible rape, never mind the onerous restriction on "free agency" that such laws impose.

[Guest]

... 

 

Thus we’ve imagined Satan standing over our shoulders with a whip and catching us before we can make any false step.  But even in that world, we have choice.  We can still WANT to do evil, which is also a sin which causes us to fall short of the glory of God.  So, this is not the world Satan proposed.  His world was completely without choice.

 

While such a world could exist, this would completely wipe out the notion of learning and growth.  We must pass through sorrow to know the good from the bad.

 

So, what does this have to do with Government?...

It doesn't have particularly much to do with Government, if you mean Communism vs. say, Democracy in what seems to the the intent of the OP. But it does have something to do with the fact that what we've "imagined" didn't just pop into the heads of thousands of Church members. It was, and is taught them both formally and informally. It has been articulated by men with particular political views and experiences. It is a concept that evolved, I think, in a context of people living in a specific country that espouses freedom in certain terms and having lived through certain events (both local and world-wide) for over 200 years. Interesting in any event.

[pkstpaul]

The "force" comes from compelling people who would rather not pay for such programs, to pay for them anyways--at the risk of imprisonment (or, in the face of continued resistance, death) if they refuse to fork over their hard-earned money.

 

There are some government functions which are so exigent that such force is necessary and appropriate; but the list of such critical functions is not as broad as many Americans like to think it is--because a free market is generally more powerful than most Americans comprehend, and government is more prone to corruption than we want to acknowledge.

Providing infrastructure is a program? Cleaning up the environment is a program? Ensuring safe housing is a program? Is the "non-communist" take that we shouldn't be compelled to pay taxes?

[The Folk Prophet]

His world was completely without choice.

 

I disagree with this idea. I would say that his world was completely without consequence.

Edited October 20, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

 Which, I suppose, is all you really intended. 

 

Yep.

 

I do have my philosophies. But they are only my philosophies. Of course my philosophies are based on a more complete understanding of agency, and therefore they have more weight, I believe. :)

Edited October 20, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

It doesn't have particularly much to do with Government, if you mean Communism vs. say, Democracy in what seems to the the intent of the OP. But it does have something to do with the fact that what we've "imagined" didn't just pop into the heads of thousands of Church members. It was, and is taught them both formally and informally. It has been articulated by men with particular political views and experiences. It is a concept that evolved, I think, in a context of people living in a specific country that espouses freedom in certain terms and having lived through certain events (both local and world-wide) for over 200 years. Interesting in any event.

 

I think that many of these articulations are not as articulated as you are making them out to be, but rather interpreted. We infer more than they imply.

 

For example, there have been articulations that contend for a free government per the idea of agency that are likely translated as a view of Satan's plan being about force, which don't actually say this or even imply it. Freedom is a precious part of agency and we do, and should, advocate for such. But not because it's Satan's plan to do otherwise.

Edited October 20, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest]

Yep.

 

I do have my philosophies. But they are only my philosophies. Of course my philosophies are based on a more complete understanding of agency, and therefore they have more weight, I believe.

I have often sat through Gospel Doctrine classes listening to the views about Satan's intentions and wanting to invoke Godwin's Law, but figured the attempt at humor would be lost. :)

[Guest]

I think that many of these articulations are not as articulated as you are making them out to be, but rather interpreted. We infer more than they imply.

 

For example, there have been articulations that contend for a free government per the idea of agency that are likely translated as a view of Satan's plan being about force, which don't actually say this or even imply it. Freedom is a precious part of agency and we do, and should, advocate for such. But not because it's Satan's plan to do otherwise.

Possibly. But if it's true, then I think it is more true post-1975 or so than it was between say 1945 and 1975. You may be right that many members inferred, but my impression was that when Ezra Taft Benson asserted that Satan's plan was to use force, for example, he meant it as it was received. Maybe, maybe not. 

[Just_A_Guy]

Providing infrastructure is a program? Cleaning up the environment is a program? Ensuring safe housing is a program?

 

They are goals--lofty ones, to be sure--but when government makes those goals a part of its raison d'etre, then it pursues those goals via the implementation of programs.  And, more to the point--those programs are paid for by taxpayers who may or may not want their funds to go to those purposes.

 

 

Is the "non-communist" take that we shouldn't be compelled to pay taxes?

No; it is that "the list of such critical functions is not as broad as many Americans like to think it is".