Constitution Hanging by a Thread Fulfilled?

[cdowis]

So what references have Church leaders made to the Constitution "hanging by a thread?" Brigham Young said:

 

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so.

With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected.^[5]

 

Orson Hyde said,

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this—that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.^[6]

 

Brigham Young and Orson Hyde both clearly state that the Constitution will be in grave danger of being destroyed. If the constitution is to be preserved it will be because the "Elders" of the Church will step forward and provide the support that will help to preserve the Constitution. The Elders of the Church will always be in support of the constitution, and will not ever be in a position to replace or supplant the constitutional principles in that document. Note that this belief has nothing to do with the so-called "White Horse" prophecy, but in fact preceded the date claimed for that prophecy.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Prophecies/White_Horse_prophecy

 

Edited November 28, 2015 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Note that Orson Hyde said " If the Constitution be saved at all...."  It is my opinion that this prophecy was fulfilled when Romney ran for President of the United States, and Harry Reid, a priesthood holder, made accusations against him.  By his own admission these accusations were untruthful, and he reveled in the fact that Romney lost the election.

 

The Destroyer of the Constitution, with Reid's support and assistance, was then elected as President.

Edited November 28, 2015 by cdowis

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I remember at a homeschooling conference many years ago Joel Skousen said that we were (and had been for awhile) loosing freedoms rapidly.  He predicted that the last freedom we would lose would be religious freedom.  The reason being that THAT would be the one that would wake people up, but by then it would be too late.

 

I'll let you speculate on where we are on that...  I just want to emphasize that we started losing freedom a long time ago, and we have BOTH political parties (Republicans and Democrats) to blame.  I was going to add ourselves as well, but I suspect the problem may date back to before some of our posters were old enough to vote.  :)  Back to warnings from David O. McKay . . . I don't have any quotes at my fingertips to back that up though. 

[Guest MormonGator]

]

 

I'll let you speculate on where we are on that...  I just want to emphasize that we started losing freedom a long time ago, and we have BOTH political parties (Republicans and Democrats) to blame.  I was going to add ourselves as well, but I suspect the problem may date back to before some of our posters were old enough to vote.   :)  Back to warnings from David O. McKay . . . I don't have any quotes at my fingertips to back that up though. 

 TRUTH. 

 

Both republicans and democrats are at fault with this one. 

In my view, everyone "loves the constitution" until it conflicts with their views. That's why one side ignores the second amendment and one ignores the fourth. 

[LeSellers]

In my view, everyone "loves the constitution" until it conflicts with their views. That's why one side ignores the second amendment and one ignores the fourth.

Even those who love the II do not love all of it: when was the last time you formed a militia? The constitution tells us it is "necessary to the security of a free state" but unless we (well, you, I'm too old) train, study, practice, elect officers, train, drill, and train, we don't have this fundamental element of a free society.

No, I am not saying that it is only those who are part of a well regulated militia who have the right to keep'n'bear. However, those who do the latter, but ignore the former, will not be able to exercise their preferred right.

Lehi

Edited November 29, 2015 by LeSellers

[Guest]

Many homeschoolers will blame the loss of freedoms and lack of adherence to he Constitution to Public Schooling. It is interesting to note that the two quotes given in the OP were right around the time public school began in the US (1855).  Because the government got into the education of our children, they were not taught about the original principles of the Constitution.  So, as generations passed, it became less relevant.

 

Then what happened?  Woodrow Wilson, 16th & 17th amendments, FDR, the new deal, downhill from there.  It has never gotten better.

 

Today, we may follow some forms of the Constitution.  But we've already lost the freedom of religion, speech, and assembly.  We have greatly curtailed the freedom of the press and right to bear arms.

 

Third amendment pretty much ok.

 

Fourth amendment pretty much gone.

 

Fifth: Self-incrimination is barely intact.  The eminent domain aspect has been interpreted away to where we have no property rights.

 

Sixth & seventh:  The litigious social norms have made any protections meaningless.

 

Eighth:  meh.

 

Ninth: Joke.

 

Tenth: Ignored.

 

Yes, we're already there.  It's hanging by a thread.  The other portion "being saved by the elders of the church" is not yet fulfilled.

 

From what I've read, the US as we know it will fall apart.  Then the Church will be the only large organization that will 1) Survive with strength and 2) will have a firm belief in Constitutional principles.  It will be this combination that will make people want to come to the Saints to form a new government -- not to share the religion, but to establish justice.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Guest

[Guest MormonGator]

 when was the last time you formed a militia?

 Yesterday, but enough about how I spend my personal time, okay pal?

(kidding, kidding)  

[cdowis]

Academics shredding the Constitution

see the video

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/academic-liberals-say-shred-the-constitution.php

[kapikui]

 

Third amendment pretty much ok.

 

Actually maybe not.  One of the major reasons to quarter soldiers was not to have a place to put them.  Before the revolution soldiers were quartered mostly in areas and with individuals thought to be potentially disloyal.  Soldiers were quartered to create a chilling effect on potential "troublemakers". 

 

Of course today we have the (also fourth amendment violating) total surveillance and repeated attempts to ban encryption. The goal is the same to chill any attempts to fix things. 

[Still_Small_Voice]

Thomas Jefferson believed the sixth amendment to be the most important in the Bill of Rights.  One right in the sixth amendment seldom talked about is below:

 

The primary function of the independant juror is not, as many think, to dispense punishment to fellow citizens accused of breaking various laws, but rather to protect fellow citizens from tyrannical abuses of power by government.

The Constitution guarantees you the right to trial by jury.  This means that government must bring its case before a jury of the people if government wants to deprive any person of life, liberty or property.  Jurors can say no to government tyranny by refusing to convict.

[yjacket]

The Constitution guarantees you the right to trial by jury.  This means that government must bring its case before a jury of the people if government wants to deprive any person of life, liberty or property.

 

Gone; if you run afoul of an agency, EPA, OSHA, etc. good luck on getting jury trial.  Even if one is innocent going the way of a jury trail may not be the best course of action.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/04/plea_bargains_should_prosecutors_be_forced_to_have_their_plea_bargains_approved.html

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/nov/20/why-innocent-people-plead-guilty/

 

Thanks to minimal mandatory sentencing laws. 

 

If you become a target by a regulatory agency you are pretty much toast-expect to pay-a lot.  It ends up being extortion.

For xyz regulation violation (which may or may not have occurred), you can pay 10k now and make it go away, or if you don't pay and take it to a trial and you are guilty you're fine will be 200k plus add up all the legal expenses that your defense alone could equal several thousand dollars.  Most people will just pay the fine even if innocent, because they know the hassle and the consequences should things not go in their favor.

 

 

 Jurors can say no to government tyranny by refusing to convict.

In theory yes, but most juries believe that if someone has broken the law they must convict (regardless of how screwed up the law is).  Lawyers are prohibited from mentioning jury nullification, no Judge will address it and if as a juror you mention it prior to deliberation you will a) never be on the jury or b) removed from the jury. 

Edited November 29, 2015 by yjacket

[yjacket]

Constitution has been shredded for a long while.  The form and structure is there but the insides is all hollow and rotted out; people are just now starting to realize how shredded it is.

 

Presidents and Congress are only constrained by how much they think they can get away with, not whether something is Constitutional and it happens with both major parties.

 

Interesting historical side-note, the anti-federalist prior to the ratification of the Constitution pretty much laid out how it could be turned into a very large Centralized government with very little practical oversight.  They were right; thank heavens they fought the fight against the Constitution-without them we wouldn't have the Bill of Rights and then we would be in real big trouble.

 

Imagine where we would be without a 2nd amendment; no anti-federalist, no 2nd amendment.

 

The Constitution was pretty much a coup and an overthrow of a legitimate government. The representatives were only authorized to amend the Articles of Confederation. Instead they held secret closed-door meetings and wrote an entirely new governing document.  Should be a cautionary tale for anyone who wants an Article V Constitutional Convention.

Edited November 29, 2015 by yjacket

[LeSellers]

most juries believe that if someone has broken the law they must convict (regardless of how screwed up the law is).  Lawyers are prohibited from mentioning jury nullification, no Judge will address it and if as a juror you mention it prior to deliberation you will a) never be on the jury or b) removed from the jury.

For information on jury nullification, see fija.org.

The Fully Informed Jury Association is the best place to go to understand the power of the jury, and to know how to use that power in defense of freedom.

Lehi

Edited November 30, 2015 by LeSellers

[Guest MormonGator]

For information on jury nullification, see fija.org.

The Fully Informed Jury Association is the best place to go to understand the power of the jury, and to know how to use tht power in defense of freedom.

Lehi

 I second all this. My home state has had several cases of prosecutorial overreach that has, thank God, been stopped by jury nullification.

 

It's a beautiful process. It's the best way of staying "stop" to those in power who abuse it. 

Edited November 30, 2015 by MormonGator

[JojoBag]

I believe that this prophecy will be fully fulfilled when both the First and Second Amendments are nullified, probably through activist-socialist judges.

[JojoBag]

I believe that this prophecy will be fully fulfilled when both the First and Second Amendments are nullified, probably through activist-socialist judges.

[Blackmarch]

I believe that this prophecy will be fully fulfilled when both the First and Second Amendments are nullified, probably through activist-socialist judges.

they won't be nullified they'll be so twisted as not to be the original thing. and that has happened. Liberals tend to support the twisted version of the first amendment, and conservatives tend to support the twisted version of the second amendment.

however out of the two the one with graver consequences is the first.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Blackmarch

[omegaseamaster75]

Constitution Hanging by a Thread Fulfilled?

 

Nope not even close, to much gloom and doom guys we live in the greatest nation on earth. Things need to get much worse before we can say that this "prediction" is fulfilled. Let's face it, it's not doctrine just speculation.

 

Ok you can go back to digging your bomb shelter in your backyard now and hoarding ammo.

[Guest]

Ok you can go back to digging your bomb shelter in your backyard now and hoarding ammo.

 

Why? It's already complete.  

[Guest]

Those who thought Romney was the "Savior of the Constitution" mentioned in the prophecy raise your hands.  Don't be shy now...

[mirkwood]

Those who thought Romney was the "Savior of the Constitution" mentioned in the prophecy raise your hands.  Don't be shy now...

 

 

Need a vomit emoticon...

 

:vomit:

 

:barf:

[Guest]

      Best i could find.

[mirkwood]

L. Tom Perry, “God’s Hand in the Founding of America,” New Era, Jul 1976, 45

            Adapted from an address delivered on February 24, 1976, at BYU

“[There are]... prophecies concerning our great responsibilities to preserve that which we have been blessed with by God.

“.... I will point out to you special witnesses who have indicated our responsibilities to this land.

“First from Brigham Young, second president of the Church: “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate [intact/kept sacred] by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15.)

“... John Taylor, third president of the Church: “When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States, the elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth, and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men, and extending the hand of fellowship to the oppressed of all nations.” (The Gospel Kingdom, Deseret Book Co., 1943, p. 219.) ...

“A final witness is from George Q. Cannon, former member of the First Presidency, who said that “the day will come when the Constitution and free government under it will be sustained and preserved by this people.” (JD, 23:104.)

“Now, I declare to you that if we are not in the beginning stages of the fulfillment of this prophecy, we are at least in the stages where we are preparing for its fulfillment.”

[mirkwood]

 "this people."

 

They were talking to the membership of the church.  We should be taking such statements seriously and sadly a great many members of our church do not.

[zil]

The feeling that I needed to participate, while at the same time feeling like my only choices were between bad and worse, is probably the same as a lot of people who have stopped participating.  What saved me from despairing that it was all pointless was deciding to stop voting only for those in the 2 major parties, and start voting for the best person regardless of their party and regardless of whether they stand a chance at winning, because, frankly, they would stand a chance if everyone would vote their conscience instead of the lesser of two evils.

 

It's that catch-22: "I'm not gonna do it cuz no one else is doing it." or "I want my vote to count." (As if the earthly count were more important than the record in heaven.)  Someone had to start doing it, and I feel much better about elections now that my vote isn't about who "can" win, but about what I have prayerfully decided is the right way for me to vote.

 

When I talk to friends about this, those who were also very discouraged by our two nutty parties suddenly take interest again.