Why does the church say that the FLDS people aren't Mormons?

[emi]

I know the mainstream LDS church has no control over the FLDS. 

 

However, we are cut from the same cloth.  They believe in many of the same things we do.  The Book of Mormon, D&C, teachings of early prophets, etc. are all part of their theology.  How could we deny that they are also Mormons?

 

it is similar to mainstream Christians trying to say we are not Christians.  No one group owns the word Christian.  I dit believe it's fair to say we own the word Mormon.  There are many branches of Mormonism and the FLDS are indeed Mormons. 

 

Thoughts?

[NeuroTypical]

We distance ourselves from them as much as possible, not just because they claim to practice polygamy, but also because their "polygamy" seems to be little more than institutionalized child and teen sex abuse.  Additionally, the Colorado City/Hildale area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency, attributed by geneticists to the abundance of FLDS cousins marrying each other. 

I suppose the situation would be analogous to Christians denying Mormons the title Christian, if Mormons were sex abusing incestuous lost-boy-creating polygamists.

Does this help?

[Guest MormonGator]

15 minutes ago, emi said:

I know the mainstream LDS church has no control over the FLDS. 

 

However, we are cut from the same cloth.  They believe in many of the same things we do.  The Book of Mormon, D&C, teachings of early prophets, etc. are all part of their theology.  How could we deny that they are also Mormons?

 

it is similar to mainstream Christians trying to say we are not Christians.  No one group owns the word Christian.  I dit believe it's fair to say we own the word Mormon.  There are many branches of Mormonism and the FLDS are indeed Mormons. 

 

Thoughts?

I agree with you, for what it's worth. They have a lot in common with us. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, emi said:

Thoughts?

Yes, just wondering if you are an active, attending member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I agree with you, for what it's worth. They have a lot in common with us. 

Yes, an off-shoot of a church will have some things in common with that church, much like Protestants have things in common with Catholics. 

[Ironhold]

"Mormon" is the term that the general public uses when dealing with the church, and so saying that they're Mormon too would generate more confusion than is necessary.

[Guest]

I addressed this in the other thread.  But it was a good idea to separate it into its own thread.  So, I'll expound a little from my other response.

1) We are justified in such "gatekeeping" because of the nature of our church structure.  We have records of who is and who is not a member.  The buildings are all centrally owned and operated.  Finances are all centrally operated and accounted for.  It is a top-down faith.  Meaning, we have leaders of the Church which define what is and is not canon.  The leadership defines what is correct and incorrect interpretation.  The leadership defines what constitutes apostasy.  And it is a pretty big deal for major things to change -- Official Declarations or a new Section of the D&C (both of which are extremely rare).  And it is all part of our history which we go over all the time.  It is because of that definition that we can happily say that FLDS are clearly NOT Mormons.

2) We are NOT cut from the same cloth.  See NT's post above.

3) You are correct.  No one "owns" the term Christian.  That's why they're not justified in making such a statement.  They can't claim on one side that "any" of these churches is true so long as they preach Christ, then from the other side claim that they can exclude someone from Christianity just because they don't like some of what we preach.  

The real motivation and history behind the practice of excluding us is a long one.  I will create a new thread describing it if you like.

4) By tradition, and in some legal perspectives, we do own the term "Mormon".  We have the copyright to the Book of Mormon from which the term springs.  We own the rights to the title "Mormon Tabernacle Choir".  We own the web address: Mormon.org.  And when non-Mormons (of any faith) hear the word "Mormons" out of the blue, which organization comes to mind?  The one headquartered in Salt Lake.  Most non-Mormons don't even know there are separate "sub-sects" of Mormonism.When a Jew or Muslim or a Buddhist hears the word "Christian" do they automatically think any particular sect?  Any particular governing body?  None.  Because they know that Christianity is just a general idea and worship of Christ as God -- a body of which we are most decidedly a part.

5) Even so, I could imagine that if you come up with a broad enough definition, yes, technically, you could come up with a way to include them.  But when we clearly have a definition that has not changed in 180 years then we're on fairly firm ground in excluding them.  But the creedal Christian has been struggling for the past 50 years to come up with differing reasons to exclude us from their number.

In some ways I'm happy to be excluded.  In other ways, it just doesn't make sense to exclude us.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Guest

[LeSellers]

44 minutes ago, emi said:

[The LDSs and the FLDSs] are cut from the same cloth.  They believe in many of the same things we do.  The Book of Mormon, D&C, teachings of early prophets, etc. are all part of their theology.  How could we deny that they are also Mormons?

Believing some of the same things does not equal being "cut from the same cloth."

 

Further, you are wrong in the next sentence, too: they do not accept, for instance, the Doctrine and Covenants. Their Doc&Cov is different from ours. They have a very different theology. And, finally, they are apostates, rejecting modern prophets from God. They separated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because they could not accept modern prophets; we did not separate from them.

Further, their practice of Plural Marriage is at total odds from what the Lord established in section 132 of our Doc&Cov. The lists of differences is both lengthy and disgusting, so I won't bother ranting.

They sully the name "Mormon". To tolerate their use of it would be to tarnish our own efforts to spread the Gospel.

Lehi

[Jane_Doe]

53 minutes ago, emi said:

it is similar to mainstream Christians trying to say we are not Christians.  No one group owns the word Christian.  I dit believe it's fair to say we own the word Mormon.  There are many branches of Mormonism and the FLDS are indeed Mormons. 

This a very flawed comparison.

"Christian" refers to one of the 35,000+ denominations out there, which doctrines differ on things such as "What is a Christian", "What books are in the Bible", "What is required for salvation", "does Christ as a representative here on Earth".  There is zero unity and much confusion.

"Mormon" in common usage refers the a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, which is 1 very unified church, 1 unified leadership, 1 established doctrine, etc.   There is much order.

To my knowledge the FLDS have no interest in even be calling "Mormon" (admittedly I've never had the opportunity to ask one directly- they shun computers).  

FLDS also differ from mainstream LDS in several key matters: which sections are in D&C, interpretation of rest of scripture, "revelations" they've had since splitting from the mainstream church, polygamy, life-style, rampant illegal activity, etc.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Eowyn said:

Yes, an off-shoot of a church will have some things in common with that church, much like Protestants have things in common with Catholics. 

There are different branches of Protestantism that have more in common with the Catholic church. IE-Anglicans.

Obviously I don't agree with the FLDS on much, and to clump them all in as "LDS" is wrong-but to say they have nothing in common isn't right either (yes, I know no one is saying that) We both think Smith was a prophet, we both believe in the Book of Mormon, we both the KJV is the "correct' version of the bible. That's actually more in common than Baptists have with Catholics. 

I get it that LDS might want to distance themselves from their actions-they are repulsive after all, but I don't blame non-members for getting confused. 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by MormonGator

[zil]

33 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

Not to pick nits, but the t in "the" is always capitalized and the d in "day" is lower case - and it matters because the capital D is (was) for the reorganized church - granted, without the hyphen, and they've changed their name, but it's probably best to be picky in this case so there's zero chance of confusion...

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

Not to pick nits

What are you doing, then?

[Jane_Doe]

14 minutes ago, zil said:

Not to pick nits, but the t in "the" is always capitalized and the d in "day" is lower case - and it matters because the capital D is (was) for the reorganized church - granted, without the hyphen, and they've changed their name, but it's probably best to be picky in this case so there's zero chance of confusion...

*Bangs head on table* How come I never can get that right.... grrr....

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

What are you doing, then?

When my collection is large enough, I plan to convert them to tins and sell them on ebay!

[zil]

8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

*Bangs head on table* How come I never can get that right.... grrr....

Because there's no inherent clue to help you remember, and with everything else capitalized, it's counter-intuitive to not capitalize the "d", and a capital "The" in the middle of a sentence just looks weird.

I remember through sheer force of will because I've written the name enough that I kinda have to.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

2 hours ago, emi said:

I know the mainstream LDS church has no control over the FLDS. 

However, we are cut from the same cloth.  They believe in many of the same things we do.  The Book of Mormon, D&C, teachings of early prophets, etc. are all part of their theology.  How could we deny that they are also Mormons?

Emi, for whatever it's worth, I have a good friend who is FLDS.  You are right we have a lot in common.  In many ways we have more in common with them than any other church.  But at the same time, we have significant differences.  We can have differences and be friends.    

Welcome to the board, by the way! 

[Guest MormonGator]

12 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 We can have differences and be friends.    

Welcome to the board, by the way! 

Isn't that the truth? My closest friend is a devout Catholic. We disagree on religion obviously, but he's still like my brother. Other than that, my circle of friends is mostly agnostics and atheists. When missionaries ask me if I know anyone who I can share the gospel with - it's always a fun conversation. 

[NeedleinA]

3 hours ago, emi said:

Why does the church say that the FLDS people aren't Mormons?

Where does the "church" say this?

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Emi, for whatever it's worth, I have a good friend who is FLDS.

You have an FLDS friend?  Honestly, I'm sort of jealous-- I'd love to meet an FLDS person and get to talk about their beliefs (I'm REALLY big on understanding other faiths from the people themselves).

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You have an FLDS friend?  Honestly, I'm sort of jealous-- I'd love to meet an FLDS person and get to talk about their beliefs (I'm REALLY big on understanding other faiths from the people themselves).

Yes, I would too actually! 

[LeSellers]

19 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Where does the "church" say this?

I am not going to look right now, but during the FLDS standoff a couple of years ago, the Church did, indeed, make a big deal out of claiming the name "Mormon", and for all the reasons we've noted here.

Okeh, I looked.

This: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-seeks-to-address-public-confusion-over-texas-polygamy-group

========================================

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints took steps today to better inform the public about differences between the Salt Lake City-based church and the polygamous group in Texas that calls itself the FLDS.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - whose members are often called "Mormons" - placed a series of video interviews on its web site to illustrate the differences between its own members in Texas and members of the isolated polygamous group.

The Texas Mormons featured on the video interviews include a director of community theater, an orthopedic surgeon, a vice president of a medical manufacturer, a former Houston Oilers quarterback, a news anchor and a young woman with aspirations for medical school.

In addition, the Church made a written appeal this week to the news media to make the important distinctions between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Texas group.

The effort to more clearly distinguish Mormons from the Texas polygamist group follows a survey commissioned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that found a high level of public awareness of stories about the polygamous compound near San Angelo, Texas. Allegations of child abuse led to a raid by the state's Child Protective Services earlier this year. Some 91 percent of respondents had heard or read stories surrounding the religious compound.

However, the survey also found that:

-More than a third of those surveyed (36 percent) erroneously thought that the Texas compound was part of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or "Mormon Church" based in Salt Lake City
-6 percent said the two groups were partly related.
-29 percent correctly said the two groups were not connected at all
-29 percent were not sure.

In addition, when asked specifically which religious organization members of the polygamous group belonged to:

-30 percent said "Mormon," "LDS" or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
-14 percent said "FLDS"
-6 percent said "Mormon fundamentalists"
-Nearly  half (44 percent) were unsure

Elder Quentin L. Cook, a Church apostle, said the national survey results confirm what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has found in the experience of its members and missionaries in Texas and elsewhere.

"We'd much rather be talking about who we are than who we aren't," Elder Cook said. "While many news reporters have been careful to distinguish between our Church and this small Texas group, it is clear that confusion still remains."

Elder Cook said the issue is an important one for the worldwide Mormon faith.

“Mormons have nothing whatsoever to do with this polygamous sect in Texas,” he said. "The fact is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints officially discontinued the practice of polygamy in 1890: 118 years ago. It’s a significant part of our distant past, not of our present.”

"People have the right to worship as they choose, and we aren't interested in attacking someone else's beliefs," Elder Cook said. "At the same time, we have an obligation to define ourselves rather than be defined by events and incidents that have nothing to do with us. It's obvious we need to do more to help people understand the enormous differences that exist between our Church which is a global faith and these small polygamous groups."

Elder Cook said the Church is looking at other ways to better inform the public of the distinctions between the two groups, beginning this week with the Internet video profiles of some of its more than 260,000 members in Texas.

"These members and thousands like them are part of the fabric of Texas and contribute to the warmth and southern hospitality of their communities," Elder Cook said.

On Tuesday, the Church sent letters to the publishers of major national newspapers and magazines, and to the heads of broadcast and cable news networks, asking for their cooperation in making proper distinctions between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the FLDS group.

Polygamy was a part of the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some Church members followed the practice for about a 50-year period until 1890, when it was officially stopped.   Any member of the Church practicing polygamy today would lose their Church membership.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints contracted with APCO Insight® to conduct the national public opinion survey. The study was completed by telephone among 1,000 adults 18 years of age and older in the continental United States on May 29-31, 2008. The survey was conducted using a random digit sampling method, ensuring that all households in the continental United States had an equal probability of being selected to participate in the survey. The margin of sampling error for a sample of 1,000 adults is ± 3.1 percentage points at the 95 percent confidence level. 

===============================================

And this: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/media-letter

===============================================

The following is a letter from Elder Lance B. Wickman, General Counsel of the Church to publishers of major newspapers, TV stations and magazines. It was sent out on Tuesday, June 24, 2008.                     

-------------------------------------

Recent events have focused the media spotlight on a polygamous sect near San Angelo, Texas, calling itself the “Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.”  As you probably know, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has absolutely no affiliation with this polygamous sect.  Decades ago, the founders of that sect rejected the doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were excommunicated, and then started their own religion.  To the best of our knowledge, no one at the Texas compound has ever been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Unfortunately, however, some of the media coverage of the recent events in Texas has caused members of the public to confuse the doctrines and members of that group and our church.  We have received numerous inquiries from confused members of the public who, by listening to less than careful media reports, have come to a grave misunderstanding about our respective doctrines and faith.  Based on these media reports many have erroneously concluded that there is some affiliation between the two – or even worse, that they are one and the same.

Over the years, in a careful effort to distinguish itself, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone to significant lengths to protect its rights in the name of the church and related matters.  Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” “Mormon,” “Book of Mormon” and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries. 

We are confident that you are committed to avoiding misleading statements that cause unwarranted confusion and that may disparage or infringe the intellectual property rights discussed above.  Accordingly, we respectfully request the following: 

1. As reflected in the AP Style Guide, we ask that you and your organization refrain from referring to members of that polygamous sect as “fundamentalist Mormons” or “fundamentalist” members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
2. We ask that, when reporting about this Texas-based polygamous sect or any other polygamous group, you avoid either explicitly or implicitly any inference that these groups are affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
3. On those occasions when it may be necessary in your reporting to refer to the historical practice of plural marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that you make very clear that the Church does not condone the practice of polygamy and that it has been forbidden in the Church for over one hundred years.  Moreover, we absolutely condemn arranged or forced “marriages” of underage girls to anyone under any circumstances.   

Stated simply, we would like to be known and recognized for whom we are and what we believe, and not be inaccurately associated with beliefs and practices that we condemn in the strongest terms. We would be grateful if you could circulate or copy this letter to your editorial staff and to your legal counsel.    

We thank you for your consideration of these important matters. 

Sincerely,

Lance B. Wickman

General Counsel

========================================

Lehi

Edited March 21, 2016 by LeSellers

[NeedleinA]

10 hours ago, LeSellers said:

Specifically, we have obtained registrations for the name “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” “Mormon,” “Book of Mormon” and related trade and service marks from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and corresponding agencies in a significant number of foreign countries. 

1. As reflected in the AP Style Guide, we ask that you and your organization refrain from referring to members of that polygamous sect as “fundamentalist Mormons” or “fundamentalist” members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Lance B. Wickman

General Counsel  (inserted June 24, 2008)

Thank you Lehi, great find! This clearly looks like, yes, the Church is defending the name "Mormon". 

13 hours ago, emi said:

I dit (don't) believe it's fair to say we own the word Mormon.

Where is JAG when you need him? 

As best I can tell: 
1. The LDS church both "does" and "doesn't" own/right to the word "Mormon". 
2. The Church holds trademarks etc. through a division/company called: Intellectual Reserve, Inc.
3. It appears we (LDS Church) have the rights to "Mormon" when it comes to Educational Classes/Institutions.
4. It appears we do not have the rights to "Mormon" when it comes to Religious Services. 


 

Edited March 21, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

You have an FLDS friend?  Honestly, I'm sort of jealous-- I'd love to meet an FLDS person and get to talk about their beliefs (I'm REALLY big on understanding other faiths from the people themselves).

Yes, I met her when I still lived in Utah.  She lived in my ward.  We both homeschooled and home birthed so we hit it off right away.  (One of my midwives was FLDS too.)  We did talk about religion and all kinds of things.  

Like you, I enjoy meeting people of various faiths and backgrounds.  In Utah, I also had a good friend (I've lost touch with her now and I regret that) that was a Devotee of Hari Krishna. They are vegetarian, and she introduced me to vegetarian recipes to die for!   

[theSQUIDSTER]

21 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

This a very flawed comparison.

To my knowledge the FLDS have no interest in even be calling "Mormon" (admittedly I've never had the opportunity to ask one directly- they shun computers).  

This is not completely accurate.  They don't shun computers or technology per se.  But they have very strict teachings about what can be used and how. 

I work in the IT field and met a gentleman who worked for one of our tech support contacts who said he was an FLDS apostate.. Born and raised in Colorado City.. but recently excommunicated.  He was well schooled in how to setup servers and fix PCs because, he claimed to have been a Network Admin who helped setup servers for the FLDS church network and for Warren Jeffs personally.  He told me they are ok with technology in general but have extremely strict teachings .. No Tv, extremely limited/filtered Internet content and web access... So, no you probably wouldn't run into an FLDS person on a forum or meet one on Facebook.. It was my understanding that technology is used mostly for communication with other FLDS.  This might be mostly for the leadership and not so much for the rank-and-file member.

[theSQUIDSTER]

21 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

This a very flawed comparison.

To my knowledge the FLDS have no interest in even be calling "Mormon" (admittedly I've never had the opportunity to ask one directly- they shun computers).  

This is not completely accurate.  They don't shun computers or technology per se.  But they have very strict teachings about what can be used and how. 

I work in the IT field and met a gentleman who worked for one of our tech support contacts who said he was an FLDS apostate.. Born and raised in Colorado City.. but recently excommunicated.  He was well schooled in how to setup servers and fix PCs because, he claimed to have been a Network Admin who helped setup servers for the FLDS church network and for Warren Jeffs personally.  He told me they are ok with technology in general but have extremely strict teachings .. No Tv, extremely limited/filtered Internet content and web access... So, no you probably wouldn't run into an FLDS person on a forum or meet one on Facebook.. It's my understanding that technology is used mostly for communication with other FLDS.  This might be mostly for the leadership and not so much for the rank-and-file member.

Edited March 21, 2016 by theSQUIDSTER