Why should my friend leave his daughter in public school?

[Vort]

(This is intended as a discussion topic, not as a solicitation of advice.)

I have a friend (a really, really close friend, almost like a brother but much closer, someone with whom I have a uniquely intimate relationship, such that we can basically read each other's thoughts -- pretty amazing, really) who homeschools. That is, his wife homeschools. The way they do it is unusual: They homeschool until the child is 12 or 13, at which point the child gets to take control (or at least start to take control) of his/her education. So far, his children have chosen to start junior high/middle school in 7th or 8th grade, go to school roughly half-time, and receive a high school diploma. They take "running start" classes as juniors and seniors.

My friend has a teenage daughter, a very intelligent young women who is not particularly academic. Like her father, she tends to do well in areas she likes and not so well in areas that don't interest her. She is artistic and highly creative. A high school freshman, she is languishing in her classes, and after one semester is sporting a decent but unspectacular GPA of around maybe 3.7. Since scholarships will be important to finance her post-secondary education, this really is not good enough.

She "likes" her teachers, but she doesn't like her classes. She says her science teacher doesn't even teach them anything. (This is a guy who, at the beginning of the year, bragged to the parents that his class was tackling the immensely complex subject of -- steel yourselves! -- plate tectonics. Oooooooooooooooh.) Her history teacher is "testing" them using what she [the teacher] calls "the Socratic method", which is doublespeak for I'll-give-each-student-the-grade-I-want-to-give-him/her-based-on-how-much-I-approve-of-his/her-ideas. The daughter got a B- on her last "exam", with the teacher assuring the class, "Getting a B or C this time is actually very good, because I made this one hard."

In addition to this lack of actual learning, she has to deal with the "normal" stuff in a Seattle-area school, including student pep rallies to celebrate homosexuality and the omnipresent, oppressive political correctness of pretty much every aspect of school.

I have kindly and generously informed my friend that I can't figure out why anyone would leave his daughter in such a hellhole, and what the heck is the matter with him, anyway? I have encouraged him to pull her out of school, like, today. Maybe sooner. He seems a bit on the fence, though. Wishy-washy and indecisive. Pathetic. His wife isn't completely on board with the idea, either. His daughter acts shocked at the very mention of leaving her half-time high school experience, but I bet she'd get over it in short order.

My friend generously agreed to let me post the following question on thsi forum: Can anyone provide any good, convincing reasons why he should leave his precious daughter in such a situation instead of pulling her out post haste?

[Guest]

There are some on both sides of my family who Unschool, which as I understand it is basically letting the child lead what and when they learn. They are almost religious about the philosophy of child-guided education. If this friend of yours is of this mindset, I can see how pulling her out of school, especially if she doesn't want to go, would run contrary to his mode of thinking. That's not to say this philosophy or possible reaction is wrong, it's just what I've observed from unschoolers in my family. (In fact, there's a lot I admire about what they do, so I'm honestly not criticizing at all.)

Also recognize that you are of a pretty strong anti-public-school mind, so that is doubtless coloring your perception of it, as well. 

Why does the daughter want to stay?

Do they send their kids to secondary school because they're intimidated with the responsibility of teaching harder subjects at a higher level?

Is the relationship between mother and daughter strained?

There could be so many reasons. I'm not going to start advocating for public school just because my kids are in public school. The fact is that we live in a very conservative area where some of those things you mentioned just wouldn't happen. We put a lot of thought and prayer into how to raise and educate our kids. But our circumstances aren't the same as theirs, so I can't speak to why they specifically would want to keep her where she is. 

[Guest]

I'm also gently suggesting that your phraseology (wishy-washy, pathetic, precious daughter in a hell hole, what the heck is wrong with him) here says a lot to me about how your conversations with him are going. If I were him I would frankly feel very judged and attacked, and wouldn't entertain any notion of sharing my reasoning with you. 

[Ironhold]

The issue is that the child is not being sufficiently challenged. The material is well below her level, and so she's bored out of her skull. 

If AP classes are available, then the girl needs to get in them as quickly as possible. 

If not, then see if there's any sort of dual enrollment plan in place wherein the girl can take college courses for both high school *and* college credit. 

Otherwise, it's home-schooling or private school. Either way, her parents will need to come up with things on their own time to help keep her interested and learning on her time. 

[NeuroTypical]

I'm reading this topic intently.  My 15 yr old, after a full decade of "you'll never get me into a school - I'm gonna homeschool with Mamma forever" attitude, is tentatively choosing to go to a public high school.  There are good reasons - she gets 50 credits from them and she gets a full-on high school diploma.  Some of that will appear on a college transcript, basically free college classes are available.  It's part-time, 10 to 2, four days a week, more if you want.  Socialization opportunities appeal - we'll see if they continue to appeal after she meets some of her peers.  She can be bookwormy or social when on the campus.  

Another reason, the homeschooling co-op and academies and whatnot available in our area sort of peter out around high-school age.  Hanging out with family for 4 years, from what I understand about human teenager development, gets less attractive.  Starting to explore world and people in it on their own at this age - normal behavior and not intrinsically a bad thing.  Testing principles and beliefs against a backdrop of folks who believe differently - also normal behavior and not automatically bad.  

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

I'm also gently suggesting that your phraseology (wishy-washy, pathetic, precious daughter in a hell hole, what the heck is wrong with him) here says a lot to me about how your conversations with him are going. If I were him I would frankly feel very judged and attacked, and wouldn't entertain any notion of sharing my reasoning with you. 

Oh, I'm judging the heck out of him. He knows it. But he's a glutton for punishment, and he thanks me kindly for my thoughts. I figure it's the least I can do.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

Oh, I'm judging the heck out of him. He knows it. But he's a glutton for punishment, and he thanks me kindly for my thoughts. I figure it's the least I can do.

If you're sure it's not stifling the conversation. I mentioned it because  it reminded me of a family relationship I have. My SIL and I get along famously until this issue and another come up, and she starts using charged and judgey language with lots of adjectives to leave me with no doubt how she feels. Even if I grin and bear it at the time, it keeps me from wanting to talk to her about any of it, least of all personal reasons for our choices. 

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

If you're sure it's not stifling the conversation. I mentioned it because  it reminded me of a family relationship I have. My SIL and I get along famously until this issue and another come up, and she starts using charged and judgey language with lots of adjectives to leave me with no doubt how she feels. Even if I grin and bear it at the time, it keeps me from wanting to talk to her about any of it, least of all personal reasons for our choices. 

He and I are pretty brutal entre nous in private, though we actually like each other. Sometimes, I think we're each other's only friend.

Plus, his wife is totally hot.

[Guest]

 

[NeedleinA]

Gut reaction on my part... if your friend has the means/time/resources to continue homeschooling successfully for her education, I would pull my kid out in a heartbeat. 

My oldest ended home school after the 6th grade and entered Jr.High. My wife felt that she had maxed out her personal resources at that point, otherwise he would still be home with us. For whatever small perceived "advantages" our son gets, they are overshadowed by the disadvantages. 

Some (pretend) advantages:
Sports (but he could do this via the YMCA or city leagues)
Dances (but he could do this with the YM/YW at church)
Band (but home school groups have those too)
Friends (YM&YW take care of that also)
 

Edited April 18, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Connie]

I can recommend a really great online school if this friend with the hot wife is interested.

[NeedleinA]

Part 2:

Sorry not sure why the other half of my post got cut off:

continued...

Only "Real" advantage is:
1. My wife gets free time
2. My wife gets free time
3. My wife gets, yes, more free time

The person that has any advantage is my wife, but none that we can see with our kids. 

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

19 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Part 2:

Sorry not sure why the other half of my post got cut off:

continued...

Only "Real" advantage is:
1. My wife gets free time
2. My wife gets free time
3. My wife gets, yes, more free time

The person that has any advantage is my wife, but none that we can see with our kids. 

LOL, as a homeschooling mom myself, I totally get that.

Also as a homeschooling mom, I can't imagine why they don't pull her out. If the issue is...as I suspect - being a teenage girl she likes the social life - and they want to give her autonomy...

I would talk to her about a compromise of taking one or two electives at the high school and home school or Running Start for the rest. Naturally I would present this in a way that she walks away feeling like this was all her idea, and about her goals...because I'm devious like that. I've been getting my kids to do what I want while thinking they came up with the idea for years.  It really helps with their motivation.

[NightSG]

46 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Friends (YM&YW take care of that also)

Part of having friends in school is learning to deal with people in the real world later.  Unless you live in the heart of Utah, 98% of the people in the real world have very little in common with the YM/YW.

Frankly, it's amusing but sad sometimes to see brand new missionaries from Utah get here, (a mostly Baptist city of ~18,000 plus ~8,000 college students, where the dry cleaners still have "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Easter" bags, the five Jews think that's amusing while the atheists just use Dryel and keep quiet, and virtually every non-government-sponsored meeting of any sort still starts with a prayer, while government ones start with the Pledge of Allegiance - IOW, practically Mayberry compared to a lot of places) and be shocked by the "den of iniquity" that we quite happily live in.

Around here, a lot of the churches trade off on their summer, evening and Spring Break activities.  It's not that hard for the Methodists to have a faith-based program that the Baptists can't find fault in, and vice versa.  The CoC kids ignore the piano and the SDA ones...well, I dunno...maybe they go play with the JWs or something.  I even remember a couple of LDS kids coming to the Methodist Vacation Bible School 20...er...maybe 30 something years ago.  They didn't burst into flames when they walked in the door, and one of them is still in the ward today, while the other is active elsewhere so obviously the Methodists' much better deviled eggs didn't steal their souls.  Sure, the Pentecostal kids still look funny in those groups, but everybody gets along, and everybody gets to meet people outside their faith on a daily basis.  It makes for a much easier transition to real life, where we really don't have the option of avoiding the infidels every day.

[anatess2]

The #1 reason for not pulling her out of school:  The daughter wants it.

That said... there's a reason why the daughter wants it.  Figure that question out.  If it's the friends, social exposure, I feel free to make my own decisions and grow as a sappling with my own slice of sunlight underneath the towering oak... then see if you can provide her with that same need somewhere else that is not this school.  See if she'll agree to it.

Note:  School (Pubic or Otherwise) is not just the 3R's... that you can do at home.  And judging by how terrible her grades are, I suggest the mom continue to work with her on the academics even as she's attending public school.  The other learning experience in School (Public or Otherwise) is learning to succeed in the face of great odds - you know, learning how to get an A with a bad teacher... think of the movie Clueless.

She's old enough to be grounded in morals.  She can be let out of the safe space.  Reinforce the morals at home together with the 3Rs.  Trust me - it is better that she deal with the militant homosexuals while she can still run home to mama than later on when she's completely on her own.

And yeah... go find her a public School of the Arts.  There's got to be one in Seattle somewhere.  That's where she belongs.  The militant homosexuals flock to the arts schools, yes... but, as my 14-year-old tells me almost everyday... they're not quite mature enough to win an argument with me... and they know I'm an orange belt in jiujitsu. 

[classylady]

The school year is almost over. Is it going to change things much if they pull her out of school now versus waiting until the school year is over? I don't happen to think a 3.7 gpa is that bad. But, I don't put a lot of emphasis on going to college now days. That's just me. I do have a degree from the university, but I got it later in life. And, I'm glad I have it, but I didn't need it for my career.

Does the girl know what she wants to major in? Is it a field that is difficult to get in to? Would she be happy in a Junior College where perhaps a lower gpa might still get her a scholarship? Is the family eligible for any pell grants for college tuition? I would think about all her options before making a decision.

[NeedleinA]

2 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Sports (but he could do this via the YMCA or city leagues)
Dances (but he could do this with the YM/YW at church)
Band (but home school groups have those too)
Friends (YM&YW take care of that also)

 

55 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Part of having friends in school is learning to deal with people in the real world later.  

I could have expanded my previous brief thought further. When my kids were home schooled, they had plenty of non-member friends. They had friends from other home school groups, boy scouts, city sports, volunteering at the library, etc. Home school is often mislabeled by outsiders as producing anti-social shy hermits, when it really is quite the opposite. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

24 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

I could have expanded my previous brief thought further. When my kids were home schooled, they had plenty of non-member friends. They had friends from other home school groups, boy scouts, city sports, volunteering at the library, etc. Home school is often mislabeled by outsiders as producing anti-social shy hermits, when it really is quite the opposite. 

Yes!  Same here.  My oldest kids love theater and ball room dance...(hardly hermits!)  They tell me that people are often surprised upon learning that my kids were homeschooled.  I guess they don't expect homeschoolers to be bright, self-confident, leaders?  

[NightSG]

45 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

I could have expanded my previous brief thought further. When my kids were home schooled, they had plenty of non-member friends. They had friends from other home school groups, boy scouts, city sports, volunteering at the library, etc. Home school is often mislabeled by outsiders as producing anti-social shy hermits, when it really is quite the opposite. 

Here, most of the home schoolers get these things through the (interdenominational faith-based) private school, which also coordinates open sports programs and such, as well as offering some classes a-la-carte for the parents who just don't feel up to teaching a particular subject, or want a little time off during the day.  It seems to work out well, though local LDS, in keeping with tradition, treat it as a quarantine zone.

[Guest MormonGator]

37 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Yes!  Same here.  My oldest kids love theater and ball room dance...(hardly hermits!)  They tell me that people are often surprised upon learning that my kids were homeschooled.  I guess they don't expect homeschoolers to be bright, self-confident, leaders?  

Every home schooled kid I've met has been totally normal. Society is totally unfair to homeschooled families. 

[NightSG]

37 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Every home schooled kid I've met has been totally normal.

Obese and drowning in debt?  Well, there's a good argument against it.  I want my kids to be abnormal by current American standards.

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Obese and drowning in debt?  Well, there's a good argument against it.  I want my kids to be abnormal by current American standards.

LOL! That was awesome. Darkly hilarious. 
 

[NightSG]

Guess I've been paying too much attention to Dave Ramsey again.  Probably why I'm putting off getting even a crappy car until a couple of debts are paid down.

Unless anybody happens to have $6000-8000 they need me to dispose of for them.  I know right where I can put it that it will never bother you again.

[Guest MormonGator]

21 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Guess I've been paying too much attention to Dave Ramsey again.  Probably why I'm putting off getting even a crappy car until a couple of debts are paid down.

Unless anybody happens to have $6000-8000 they need me to dispose of for them.  I know right where I can put it that it will never bother you again.

Dave Ramsey is fantastic. I listen to him as well. I agree with him totally that debt is giving up your freedom. 

[NeuroTypical]

We have this bumper sticker:

Edited April 18, 2016 by NeuroTypical