LDS perspective on Embryo donation

[mum]

Both myself and my husband have been very blessed with 7 beautiful children. We are and always will be thankful and grateful we have been blessed to be their parents.

However, we have know for several years now that there are still 2 more spirits waiting to join our family, to the point where I hear them calling to me just about every time I go to the temple. We have tried unsuccessfully for about a year now, a few months ago test results were promising, but we found out this week that there is absolutely no way we could have another child without IVF/ICSI. The shock was followed by anger, then by a brief time spent questioning my faith (why would this happen if we are doing what we are suppose to do?). This lasted a few hours before I came to the conclusion that there must be a reason why this hurdle has been placed in our path and we simply needed to jump it to get to the finish line. I also was then able to look back a several recent events and realise the path has actually been prepared for us.

The 2 questions we have is what we will do if it does work and we are left with frozen embryos and what we do if it doesn't work, I haven't been able to find much information from a LDS perspective on this subject.

For the first one we are pretty sure we would want to donate them. We have many friends and family who live with infertility and if we could give them the chance at being parents it would be a added positive benefit to the rather negative situation we found ourselves in.

If ICSI is not possible, receiving donated gametes would not be something I would do, even if the church's view on this were more positive and my husband stated he was ok with it. It is not something I feel comfortable with. Having a child that is not genetically linked to either of us is something that we had considered long before we knew we couldn't conceive any more biological children unassisted. The only thing is that with my limited research, it's not very likely someone in my country would donate to a family with 7 children. We live in a society where having lots of children is often seen as being greedy and irresponsible.

[LeSellers]

12 hours ago, mum said:

we found out this week that there is absolutely no way we could have another child without IVF/ICSI.

Sounds a bit like a young girl in mid 2 bc: How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? The same answer may apply: For with God nothing shall be impossible.

If there are children who need you as their parents, it'll work out. Elizabeth, Hannah, Rachel: they were all barren until the Lord needed their sons to come to earth. Even Leah, mother of half the tribes in Israel, "left off bearing", but had two more sons and a daughter anyway.

So, be strong and of a good courage.

As to your question, I can't cite scripture (I believe there are none that apply) or policy, but as far as I can tell, surrogacy and other "shared parentage" methods are strongly discouraged. Check with your bishop or  stake president. That's why they get the big bucks, er, well, it's their calling to answer this kind of question.

Lehi

Edited May 7, 2016 by LeSellers

[NeedleinA]

Hi Mum,

1 hour ago, mum said:

The 2 questions we have is what we will do if it does work and we are left with frozen embryos and what we do if it doesn't work, I haven't been able to find much information from a LDS perspective on this subject.

I agree with Lehi on both points. Be patient and trust that if the Spirit is telling you 2 spirits will join your family, then simply continue to live your life in a way that you are worthy and ready for that time when it comes, in whatever "form" that it comes. Two more spirits coming to you may not involve you or your husband physically in any way. I am reminded of a family in our ward with 5 kids. The father of the family sister died unexpectedly and the biological father didn't want the children any more. My friend ended up adopting their 6 nieces and nephews and now they have 11 kids all in the space of 10 months or so. 

What does Heavenly Father have in store for you, I have no clue, but like Lehi said, "be strong and of a good courage" and trust things will be as they should. 

As far as what the Church says, Handbook 2:

21.4.7     In Vitro Fertilization

The Church strongly discourages in vitro fertilization using semen from anyone but the husband or an egg from anyone but the wife. However, this is a personal matter that ultimately must be left to the judgment of the husband and wife. Responsibility for the decision rests solely upon them.
21.4.13  Sperm Donation
The Church strongly discourages the donation of sperm.
21.4.16    Surrogate Motherhood
The Church strongly discourages surrogate motherhood.

Edited May 7, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Sunday21]

In some of the wards that I have been in, people adopted children 

through foster care. The parents were far past the age of acceptability with respect to adoption. Just a thought!

[mum]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

In some of the wards that I have been in, people adopted children 

through foster care. The parents were far past the age of acceptability with respect to adoption. Just a thought!

We are quite young considering we have a 13 year old, my husband was 18 when we married, 19 when she was born. I was born the year before him. Adoption is highly unlikely, bordering on impossible to occur where I live because the number of children who are placed for adoption each year hasn't reach double figures for years. Foster care is something I would love to do down the track, I also know that when the time is right there will be children who we will introduce to the gospel because we will be their foster carers. But it is not something that has the possibility of leading to adoption with our current laws. Both myself and my husband have a long history with foster care, have been approved carers in the past and are well versed with how it operates in our country, the constraints it places on a family are such that it would interfere too greatly on our children. Foster care in our country is about getting children back to their family rather than building ours.  Most importantly, we would not be able to devote enough time to a foster child to provide them with the extra care they would deserve. Caring for a child who has been neglected and abused takes so much more than parenting a child you have given birth to.

Edited May 7, 2016 by mum

[Sunday21]

8 minutes ago, mum said:

We are quite young considering we have a 13 year old, my husband was 18 when we married, 19 when she was born. I was born the year before him. Adoption is highly unlikely, bordering on impossible to occur where I live because the number of children who are placed for adoption each year hasn't reach double figures for years. Foster care is something I would love to do down the track, I also know that when the time is right there will be children who we will introduce to the gospel because we will be their foster carers. But it is not something that has the possibility of leading to adoption with our current laws. Both myself and my husband have a long history with foster care, have been approved carers in the past and are well versed with how it operates in our country, the constraints it places on a family are such that it would interfere too greatly on our children. Foster care in our country is about getting children back to their family rather than building ours.  Most importantly, we would not be able to devote enough time to a foster child to provide them with the extra care they would deserve. Caring for a child who has been neglected and abused takes so much more than parenting a child you have given birth to.

It sure seems that you have really thought things through. Have you been to the temple recently? This is where I go when I am stumped. Recent Ensign article, answer for young woman striving in many directions., answer was, you are right on track. Keep going! Good luck!

[The Folk Prophet]

We took the Embryo Donation thing all the way to the office of the First Presidency and got the answer back that it is a matter of prayer. The information in the handbook on egg/sperm donation and surrogacy is non-applicable.

 

Edit: Please do not take my response as authoritative. Go ask your bishop.

Edited May 7, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[mum]

8 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

It sure seems that you have really thought things through. Have you been to the temple recently? This is where I go when I am stumped. Recent Ensign article, answer for young woman striving in many directions., answer was, you are right on track. Keep going! Good luck!

2 weeks of school holidays and then my husband working this particular Thursday on has meant we have missed the past 3 weeks, we usually go weekly. I am very much looking forward to going this week for this reason, as well as doing the work for our ancestors of course.

My husband was a foster child, people seem to think people only need parents while they are children. While being an adult reduces the need for a parent for basic survival, growing up to be an adult without parents is horrible. I often wish we had a similar model to that which I hear occurs in the US.

[NeedleinA]

19 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

The Church strongly discourages...

 

8 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

We took the Embryo Donation thing all the way to the office of the First Presidency...

From the moment I typed my Handbook 2 response last night, it got the hamster in my head turning in his wheel. 
This would be a great question for AskGramps.org but might also ask it here:

So why do any of you suppose the Church "strongly discourages" these? FP, were you able to find anything out in particular in your personal search?
The one overwhelming feeling that I get, right or wrong, is that these procedures may be discouraged because of the financial money making/corporate greed/business manipulating/potential abuse that could/might occur in something that is a sacred power. 

Thoughts?

[thoughts]

My thinking on this subject of embryo and sperm donation is that God has prescribed a certain way of having children, in cooperation with Him.  Further, He has seen fit to preserve information about the miracles that can achieve the end of child birth, when it seemed physically impossible by any mortal means.

If God means that two more children will be born to you, and must be born to you, then He is quite capable of making sure it happens (without  outside intervention).  If it doesn't happen naturally, He will not in any way be upset with you for not being able to do it: desire to do it, and trying to do it --- iow, your personal best--- is always good enough for Him.

I think it is clear that we are each individually going to be held accountable for how we use our procreative powers.   And I don't think trying to override what God does with others because someone wants a child badly but cannot have one even with extraordinary medical procedures is in keeping with submitting our will to His.   Is the child born to someone else using our sperm and egg (specially if we have been sealed) ours eternally, no matter who gave physical birth?   That is a real possibility.   What if that child isn't appropriate taught the Gospel, or doesn't get to experience what s/he was supposed to learn or grow because they are not in our family:  won't we also be responsible for that (the child clearly won't be responsible in any way, as s/he had no choice about their birth).   What about the possible confusion or damage when they are grown and learn that you gave them (the eggs/sperm that made them) away to someone else?

For me, the very human desire to have and raise children has overtaken God's plan and acting on that desire in the artificial ways that science now makes possible, doesn't change the fact that it is NOT how God set it up.   I don't think God's plan prioritizes giving spirits bodies by any means possible over family (which includes the reproductive powers of any couple).

[letmeoff]

On 05/07/2016 at 0:24 PM, mum said:

Both myself and my husband have been very blessed with 7 beautiful children. We are and always will be thankful and grateful we have been blessed to be their parents.

However, we have know for several years now that there are still 2 more spirits waiting to join our family, to the point where I hear them calling to me just about every time I go to the temple. We have tried unsuccessfully for about a year now, a few months ago test results were promising, but we found out this week that there is absolutely no way we could have another child without IVF/ICSI. The shock was followed by anger, then by a brief time spent questioning my faith (why would this happen if we are doing what we are suppose to do?). This lasted a few hours before I came to the conclusion that there must be a reason why this hurdle has been placed in our path and we simply needed to jump it to get to the finish line. I also was then able to look back a several recent events and realise the path has actually been prepared for us.

The 2 questions we have is what we will do if it does work and we are left with frozen embryos and what we do if it doesn't work, I haven't been able to find much information from a LDS perspective on this subject.

For the first one we are pretty sure we would want to donate them. We have many friends and family who live with infertility and if we could give them the chance at being parents it would be a added positive benefit to the rather negative situation we found ourselves in.

If ICSI is not possible, receiving donated gametes would not be something I would do, even if the church's view on this were more positive and my husband stated he was ok with it. It is not something I feel comfortable with. Having a child that is not genetically linked to either of us is something that we had considered long before we knew we couldn't conceive any more biological children unassisted. The only thing is that with my limited research, it's not very likely someone in my country would donate to a family with 7 children. We live in a society where having lots of children is often seen as being greedy and irresponsible.

It doesn't matter if the embryo dies, the spirit can re- access reality's gateway and occupy another body.

The entry sequencing is still valid so long as you can keep producing children with the same person.

[pam]

On 5/20/2016 at 2:55 PM, letmeoff said:

It doesn't matter if the embryo dies, the spirit can re- access reality's gateway and occupy another body.

The entry sequencing is still valid so long as you can keep producing children with the same person.

Do you have a valid reference for this?  I've never heard of this.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 5/7/2016 at 5:39 PM, NeedleinA said:

 

From the moment I typed my Handbook 2 response last night, it got the hamster in my head turning in his wheel. 
This would be a great question for AskGramps.org but might also ask it here:

So why do any of you suppose the Church "strongly discourages" these? FP, were you able to find anything out in particular in your personal search?
The one overwhelming feeling that I get, right or wrong, is that these procedures may be discouraged because of the financial money making/corporate greed/business manipulating/potential abuse that could/might occur in something that is a sacred power. 

Thoughts?

Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this.

I think that it's a matter of mixing your seed with someone else's (sex aside) being a private and sacred thing. When it comes to embryo donation it's literally no different than adopting except the woman grows it in her body. One would not turn away from adoption because the child was conceived in sin. Most adopted children probably were. But to conceive a child with someone who is not your spouse is a bigger deal.

As the handbook states it is strongly discouraged, not forbidden. It would not lose one a temple recommend or the like doing so. But I do not, personally, think it has anything to do with money, legal issues, etc.

Other than my personal opinion and thoughts...which are speculative at best...I have no idea. I believe it. I follow it. But I do not understand it. I would have preferred to use an egg donor rather than embryo donation. But strongly discouraged is as good as a commandment to me.

[NeedleinA]

41 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this.

I think that it's a matter of mixing your seed with someone else's (sex aside) being a private and sacred thing. When it comes to embryo donation it's literally no different than adopting except the woman grows it in her body. One would not turn away from adoption because the child was conceived in sin. Most adopted children probably were. But to conceive a child with someone who is not your spouse is a bigger deal.

As the handbook states it is strongly discouraged, not forbidden. It would not lose one a temple recommend or the like doing so. But I do not, personally, think it has anything to do with money, legal issues, etc.

Other than my personal opinion and thoughts...which are speculative at best...I have no idea. I believe it. I follow it. But I do not understand it. I would have preferred to use an egg donor rather than embryo donation. But strongly discouraged is as good as a commandment to me.

Thanks for your thoughts FP. I often like to see if there is any additional background or further explination to a "strongly discouraged" statement for my own curiosity, but it is not a requirement for me.

Edited May 25, 2016 by NeedleinA

[letmeoff]

On 22/05/2016 at 2:29 PM, pam said:

Do you have a valid reference for this?  I've never heard of this.

Ask God.

[pam]

3 hours ago, letmeoff said:

Ask God.

No serious. If you are going to state something as fact, it is up to you to provide references for it.

[letmeoff]

15 hours ago, pam said:

No serious. If you are going to state something as fact, it is up to you to provide references for it.

Well God explained the theory, it's very indepth. I'd have to see you in person to explain it fully. 

Suffice to say that reality isn't something you know,  it's something you're aware of.  It has to do with primary bioelectrical units (Souls) Soul's enter reality to gain a temporary physical veacle for relationship education. Once a unit learns enough it is welcome to join a community in life.

Edited May 26, 2016 by letmeoff

[pam]

1 minute ago, letmeoff said:

Well God explained the theory, it's very indepth. I'd have to see you in person.

Suffice to say that reality isn't something you know,  it's something you're aware of.  It has to do with primary bioelectrical units (Souls) Soul's enter reality to gain a temporary physical veacle for relationship education. Once a unit learns enough it is welcome to join a community in life.

Well forgive me if I don't believe the same thing.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, letmeoff said:

Well God explained the theory, it's very indepth. I'd have to see you in person to explain it fully. 

Suffice to say that reality isn't something you know,  it's something you're aware of.  It has to do with primary bioelectrical units (Souls) Soul's enter reality to gain a temporary physical veacle for relationship education. Once a unit learns enough it is welcome to join a community in life.

What the what?

[letmeoff]

1 minute ago, pam said:

Well forgive me if I don't believe the same thing.

You don't believe? You have to believe if you understand anything in part.

[pam]

3 minutes ago, letmeoff said:

You don't believe? You have to believe if you understand anything in part.

No I don't.  It's not LDS doctrine.

[letmeoff]

9 minutes ago, pam said:

No I don't.  It's not LDS doctrine.

LDS doctrine only knows in part, are you telling me the LDS church knows everything?

[NeuroTypical]

Hi letmeoff - let me just thank you again for being one of the fun interesting posters.

Here's some basic common sense information that most folks seem to accept:  If someone makes a claim on the interwebs, nobody has to care.  If someone makes a claim on the interwebs and they want people to care, it's up to the person making the claim to provide a reason to care.  

Commonly accepted reasons include:
* A link to a source
* An argument or reasoning process that supports the claim
* Evidence supporting the claim

Now, see, what you're doing, just isn't working.  You made a claim about how spirits can re-access reality's gateway and occupy another body.  When you were asked why you believed that, you didn't cite a source, or give an argument or reasoning process, or provide evidence.  Instead, you said "ask God", embarked on a discourse about what it means to know reality, asserted a bunch of more things, and now you're taking pam to task for her declining to believe what you're saying.

When someone does that, whether on the subject of faith, reality, politics, or the best way to cook chicken, folks will pretty much tend to dismiss that person's views.

If you want to be relevant in public discourse, you've got to give us reason to care what you are talking about.  And that means telling us why you believe what you believe.

 

p.s. - When folks hear "I'd have to see you in person to explain it fully" said online, that's widely considered a dodge, an indication that whatever the person is saying, is not worth the time it takes to read.

Edited May 26, 2016 by NeuroTypical

[mum]

 

I was googling this topic, not for myself this time but someone else and came across this post, read the vast majority of it before it clicked that I had wrote it. lol
 

Quote

 

Sounds a bit like a young girl in mid 2 bc: How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? The same answer may apply: For with God nothing shall be impossible.

If there are children who need you as their parents, it'll work out. Elizabeth, Hannah, Rachel: they were all barren until the Lord needed their sons to come to earth. Even Leah, mother of half the tribes in Israel, "left off bearing", but had two more sons and a daughter anyway.

 

We tried to do the IVF thing, it just never felt right for both of us and we cancelled the remainder of our appointments. Then in September 2016, about when we should have been starting the process, there was a massive storm, our entire state was in a blackout and the IVF clinics back up generators failed. A whole heap of the embryo's were accidentally destroyed. Guess we will never know if that could have been us.

Turns out finding Australia's best relevant surgeon, flying hubby 1300km away to go under the knife a second time, handing over a fair amount of cash to said surgeon, and a  trip to Italy for our 16th wedding anniversary has done the trick.

I also didn't listen to an answer to a prayer a few years ago which specifically told me to leave my horrible dead end level 1 job. There was significant work place bullying and the majority of employees, including myself suffered some pretty horrible depression and anxiety as a result. I stayed for about a year before finally listening. Went for an interview for a level 1 job, got called back for an interview for level 2 job 30 minutes closer to home. Got that, 3 months later was promoted to an acting level 3 job, did that for 2 months before being officially promoted to the level 3 job. Did such a great job in my first month as a level 3, the board of directors gave me a further pay rise. Now I'll get some pretty decent maternity leave, meaning I can take so much more time off when baby is born. 

So it seems everything has turned out just as it was meant to, and perhaps I've learnt the hard way to not ignore the answers to prayers.

[zil]

47 minutes ago, mum said:

I was googling this topic, not for myself this time but someone else and came across this post, read the vast majority of it before it clicked that I had wrote it. lol
 

We tried to do the IVF thing, it just never felt right for both of us and we cancelled the remainder of our appointments. Then in September 2016, about when we should have been starting the process, there was a massive storm, our entire state was in a blackout and the IVF clinics back up generators failed. A whole heap of the embryo's were accidentally destroyed. Guess we will never know if that could have been us.

Turns out finding Australia's best relevant surgeon, flying hubby 1300km away to go under the knife a second time, handing over a fair amount of cash to said surgeon, and a  trip to Italy for our 16th wedding anniversary has done the trick.

I also didn't listen to an answer to a prayer a few years ago which specifically told me to leave my horrible dead end level 1 job. There was significant work place bullying and the majority of employees, including myself suffered some pretty horrible depression and anxiety as a result. I stayed for about a year before finally listening. Went for an interview for a level 1 job, got called back for an interview for level 2 job 30 minutes closer to home. Got that, 3 months later was promoted to an acting level 3 job, did that for 2 months before being officially promoted to the level 3 job. Did such a great job in my first month as a level 3, the board of directors gave me a further pay rise. Now I'll get some pretty decent maternity leave, meaning I can take so much more time off when baby is born. 

So it seems everything has turned out just as it was meant to, and perhaps I've learnt the hard way to not ignore the answers to prayers.

Thank you for coming back to share the story.  We don't always see the answer to prayer this clearly, so it's nice when we can share examples of it.

Congratulations!