Why is marriage so important if Jesus didn't get married

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I agree that He could. I think it, generally, highly doubtful that He will (specifically concerning things outside their stewardship), and think the idea that some have that He does (even asking people to keep it quiet) is a highly dangerous idea.

I expect there are plenty who have had dreams, thoughts, feelings, etc., that they believe to be revelation that such-n-such church policy, position, or doctrine is wrong and that they have the higher knowledge and the church will, at some point, get in line with their higher knowledge, and what they're really doing is walking around deceiving themselves right into eventual full-on apostasy.

The Lord just doesn't work that way. If someone has had a revelation that gays will someday be able to marry in the temple or the like they are just wrong.

It is one of the means whereby we can determine false revelation from true. Is it in line with the prophets. When the institute student in my parent's mission as institute teachers raised her hand and testified that her brother received a revelation that he was supposed to live in a gay marriage and the church was wrong on the matter there's a problem. The Lord does not work that way.

Well that is just it...  You are operating under the "assumption" that such "private" revelations don't remain private but become public...  And that his exactly my point... once a person "publicizes" a personal revelation they have broken the pattern and can be safely discarded by anyone and everyone else (Which you clearly get)

But lets discuss some reasons why the Lord might reveal something to someone and not let him share it.  Many prophets (like Nephi) had revelations concerning the end times but only John the Revelation was allowed to write and make public such revelations.  Clearly the Lord has a reason to give the task to John, so why tell Nephi and the others at all?  The easiest answer is because the Lord keeps his promises... they had faith, they asked, and he gave it to them.  This is a big deal, if we believe the Lord, and his promises, then we have to believe that if we ask in faith, he will tell us.

Another possibly is a test of agency..  Proving if we will follow the Lord's command is one of the whole point for being here.  How do we respond when we feel the Lord has entrusted us with something special, something sacred... Do we stay humble and obedient?...  Or do we let our pride drive us to seek worldly authority and acclaim?  Either way we "prove" ourselves.

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I agree that He could. I think it, generally, highly doubtful that He will (specifically concerning things outside their stewardship), and think the idea that some have that He does (even asking people to keep it quiet) is a highly dangerous idea.

I expect there are plenty who have had dreams, thoughts, feelings, etc., that they believe to be revelation that such-n-such church policy, position, or doctrine is wrong and that they have the higher knowledge and the church will, at some point, get in line with their higher knowledge, and what they're really doing is walking around deceiving themselves right into eventual full-on apostasy.

The Lord just doesn't work that way. If someone has had a revelation that gays will someday be able to marry in the temple or the like they are just wrong.

It is one of the means whereby we can determine false revelation from true. Is it in line with the prophets. When the institute student in my parent's mission as institute teachers raised her hand and testified that her brother received a revelation that he was supposed to live in a gay marriage and the church was wrong on the matter there's a problem. The Lord does not work that way.

Well that is just it...  You are operating under the "assumption" that such "private" revelations don't remain private but become public...  And that his exactly my point... once a person "publicizes" a personal revelation they have broken the pattern and can be safely discarded by anyone and everyone else (Which you clearly get)

But lets discuss some reasons why the Lord might reveal something to someone and not let him share it.  Many prophets (like Nephi) had revelations concerning the end times but only John the Revelation was allowed to write and make public such revelations.  Clearly the Lord has a reason to give the task to John, so why tell Nephi and the others at all?  The easiest answer is because the Lord keeps his promises... they had faith, they asked, and he gave it to them.  This is a big deal, if we believe the Lord, and his promises, then we have to believe that if we ask in faith, he will tell us.

Another possibly is a test of agency..  Proving if we will follow the Lord's command is one of the whole point for being here.  How do we respond when we feel the Lord has entrusted us with something special, something sacred... Do we stay humble and obedient?...  Or do we let our pride drive us to seek worldly authority and acclaim?  Either way we "prove" ourselves.

[Traveler]

Though our words are a little different, I think there is some agreement.  I would say this – any revelation given by G-d will be received by all that are spiritually in tune with the principles required for that revelation.

It does appear to me that there is a doctrine being taught in this forum that man does not exercise agency concerning revelation or the reception of revelation.  It is my experience and my understanding – as I have sought for understanding – that agency plays a role our receiving of revelation.  Agency is included in our part of being in tune.  I think it is also part of what the Folk Prophet calls worthiness but I often find it difficult to clarify his understanding of things through the asking of questions for specific and detailed clarification. 

For the record – I do not think G-d withholds anything from anybody.  I believe that things come to those that are obedient to the covenants.  Thus worthiness (and in this case revelation) is the result of two things – covenants and obedience to covenants.  If there are other filters I do not know of them – but if someone does know – I would appreciate that they give witness (empirical and spiritual) to such truth and not vague sort-of references to uncertain things.

Thus my witness is that anyone that has received by oath and covenant and is obedient to that covenant will receive and know of any revelation given to anyone (including those of great authority) concerning the truth of all things concerning the covenant.  No exceptions – including those that seem to be made on this forum.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

another dup error

Edited June 21, 2016 by Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Well that is just it...  You are operating under the "assumption" that such "private" revelations don't remain private but become public... 

Actually that's entirely beyond my point, and not the assumption that I'm operating under, and not relative to my point either. That point is that if revelation contradicts that which is given to those who have the authority and/or stewardship for said revelation, then it is a sign that the revelation one received is either not revelation at all, or comes from a source other than God.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

It does appear to me that there is a doctrine being taught in this forum that man does not exercise agency concerning revelation or the reception of revelation.  It is my experience and my understanding – as I have sought for understanding – that agency plays a role our receiving of revelation.  Agency is included in our part of being in tune.  I think it is also part of what the Folk Prophet calls worthiness but I often find it difficult to clarify his understanding of things through the asking of questions for specific and detailed clarification. 

No one has said that agency does not play a role...but then again, as your view of what agency actually is is so far askew from others'...maybe per your idea of agency someone is implying such. Who knows.

I find it quite rich that you, of all people, are complaining about failure to clarify understanding of things. I'll grant that I tend to get a bit elitist about not explaining in detail things that should, in my opinion, be obvious to anyone with even a basic understanding of the gospel. But your views do tend to confuse me more than most others. So...kettle...meet pot.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Thus my witness is that anyone that has received by oath and covenant and is obedient to that covenant will receive and know of any revelation given to anyone (including those of great authority) concerning the truth of all things concerning the covenant.  No exceptions – including those that seem to be made on this forum.

I'd ask you for a specific, clear, precise, yes/no answer on this...but I won't get it... Still...

So you seriously believe that just being worthy means that I can receive revelation on how you should be raising your family, what career you should choose, or the means whereby you should be pursuing a closer relationship with God? I have access to those revelations for the mere keeping of my covenants?

Edited June 21, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[anatess2]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

Okay I understand - we must understand that Moroni really says "The truth of some things to some people" even though the words are , "The truth of all things".  But now I am confused - do I change my scriptures because of what some posters on the internet say or because the prophet - with authority has said to do so?    Hmmmmmm - should I seek and ask understanding from G-d and expect an answer from the Holy Ghost in order to understand or just accept what is posted because it is done with authority?

 

The Traveler

I'm really trying to understand what you're saying.  But it just doesn't compute.  I think it is because you are talking about something completely different than what I'm talking about.

Okay, let's keep with the restoration of the gospel.  Tell me - was Joseph Smith living a more righteous life than everybody else in the planet?  Was he the ONLY one who asked according to James 1:5?  Martin Luther and several others before and after him dedicated their whole lives to seeking the truth, why did God not choose to reveal the restored gospel to them?  So tell me, why do you think that God chose to reveal the truth of the restored gospel to Joseph Smith and not to anybody else?

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Actually that's entirely beyond my point, and not the assumption that I'm operating under, and not relative to my point either. That point is that if revelation contradicts that which is given to those who have the authority and/or stewardship for said revelation, then it is a sign that the revelation one received is either not revelation at all, or comes from a source other than God.

Fair enough...  An individual always has to learn how to tell the difference between that of God, that of Man and that of Devil... And if one is in conflict with the revealed word that is a good indicator of what the source is...  But the revealed word does not put a limit on what one might ask God about and get an answer to..  The only limit is on who is allowed to reveal (publicize) the Lord will for the Church (or others for that matter) that can only come from those in positions of stewardship

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by estradling75

[Traveler]

24 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No one has said that agency does not play a role...but then again, as your view of what agency actually is is so far askew from others'...maybe per your idea of agency someone is implying such. Who knows.

I find it quite rich that you, of all people, are complaining about failure to clarify understanding of things. I'll grant that I tend to get a bit elitist about not explaining in detail things that should, in my opinion, be obvious to anyone with even a basic understanding of the gospel. But your views do tend to confuse me more than most others. So...kettle...meet pot.

I'd ask you for a specific, clear, precise, yes/no answer on this...but I won't get it... Still...

So you seriously believe that just being worthy means that I can receive revelation on how you should be raising your family, what career you should choose, or the means whereby you should be pursuing a closer relationship with God? I have access to those revelations for the mere keeping of my covenants?

I will address some specifics.  It has occurred to me that we had and exercised agency in the pre-existence and that the exercising of that agency has reflection in this life.  The full extent I do not know – but I am inclined to think it to be much greater than most are even willing to consider.  There are two factors – one is that just about everybody that believes in G-d believes he knows in specific detail the outcome of our experience here.  The second point is – I do not believe he hid anything from us in the pre-existence.  That we could know whatever we desired to know.  Thus I cannot logically conclude that there is anything in mortality that would or could happen to us that we – through our agency, did not agree to with knowledge.  I have not encountered any logic from you or the brethren to indicate that we were ignorant to any degree concerning any possibilities in this life – but that we currently have a vail of forgetfulness in order to live this existence by faith.

Obviously both you and I have a vail of forgetfulness and do not remember our specific exercise of agency in the pre-existence.  I have tried to imagine any detail of our journey in this life that we could not have known before we came but I have not been able to say of anything – This is something that was not known by us.  As I review my life I have come to realize that every experience has flowed to the next and  continued to prepared me for where I am today.  If I am here by agency and choice I cannot conclude of anything in my journey here that is not because of my agency but also that I am not smart enough in this life to have so designed with such great percision my destiny.  If I am to be accused of speculating we knew too much in the pre-existence – I see no reason that such accusation is itself a speculation that we did not now know.

As to revelation – the simple straight forward answer to your question is yes.  If you desire to know why I think so I would be glad to explain.  Or if you wish you can judge me on that answer alone.  Just saying – if it was me asking the question – a yes or no - would not come close to what I would know of someone before I would try to draw a conclusion about what they really believe.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

39 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I will address some specifics.  It has occurred to me that we had and exercised agency in the pre-existence and that the exercising of that agency has reflection in this life.  The full extent I do not know – but I am inclined to think it to be much greater than most are even willing to consider.  There are two factors – one is that just about everybody that believes in G-d believes he knows in specific detail the outcome of our experience here.  The second point is – I do not believe he hid anything from us in the pre-existence.  That we could know whatever we desired to know.  Thus I cannot logically conclude that there is anything in mortality that would or could happen to us that we – through our agency, did not agree to with knowledge.  I have not encountered any logic from you or the brethren to indicate that we were ignorant to any degree concerning any possibilities in this life – but that we currently have a vail of forgetfulness in order to live this existence by faith.

Obviously both you and I have a vail of forgetfulness and do not remember our specific exercise of agency in the pre-existence.  I have tried to imagine any detail of our journey in this life that we could not have known before we came but I have not been able to say of anything – This is something that was not known by us.  As I review my life I have come to realize that every experience has flowed to the next and  continued to prepared me for where I am today.  If I am here by agency and choice I cannot conclude of anything in my journey here that is not because of my agency but also that I am not smart enough in this life to have so designed with such great percision my destiny.  If I am to be accused of speculating we knew too much in the pre-existence – I see no reason that such accusation is itself a speculation that we did not now know.

I'm well aware of your views on agency. I consider your view skewed. It's one of those things that is such a basic gospel principle that it's not worth explaining. If someone who is an educated, intelligent member cannot understand the matter then it is clear they do not want to, and all the explaining in the world isn't going to do any good. Of course none your explanation has anything to do with our points concerning authority to receive any given revelation or not. 

41 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As to revelation – the simple straight forward answer to your question is yes.  If you desire to know why I think so I would be glad to explain.  Or if you wish you can judge me on that answer alone.  Just saying – if it was me asking the question – a yes or no - would not come close to what I would know of someone before I would try to draw a conclusion about what they really believe.

I didn't say I 'only' wanted a yes or no. I just so rarely get a yes or no that I rarely truly get your position. As to whether you want to explain it or not is up to you. If you believe such revelations can be and are given outside of one's stewardship then you are simply wrong. The why of it might be interesting...but it won't counter the wrongness of it.

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm well aware of your views on agency. I consider your view skewed. It's one of those things that is such a basic gospel principle that it's not worth explaining. If someone who is an educated, intelligent member cannot understand the matter then it is clear they do not want to, and all the explaining in the world isn't going to do any good. Of course none your explanation has anything to do with our points concerning authority to receive any given revelation or not. 

 

I do not believe you have a clue what my views on agency actually are - it appears to me you have made conclusions on things you do not understand nor care consider in actual detail.  This I surmise from the questions you ask and do not ask.  I assume you have chosen to not know or understand my views.  Actually I do not believe our views to be as different as you do.  I would ask more questions to clarify but in the past you have indicated you are not interested in deep discussion.  I respect that and do not want to force a discussion where it is not wanted.  I had hoped to learn from you – but my honest impressions is that you do not enjoy our interchanges.  Mostly I have tried to clarify what you believe.  When I have posted any part of what I believe – I do not believe you have asked a single question to clarify anything.  If you have asked any question – I apologize because it appears at this point that you have come to a conclusion and do not want any conclusion you have made challenged.  We seem to be going in circles – whenever I try to respond to something I think you may be referencing – you say things like “I'm well aware of your views on agency” but when I ask a question to clarify – you do not seem to be aware of hardly the smallest if any detail.

 

Quote

I didn't say I 'only' wanted a yes or no. I just so rarely get a yes or no that I rarely truly get your position. As to whether you want to explain it or not is up to you. If you believe such revelations can be and are given outside of one's stewardship then you are simply wrong. The why of it might be interesting...but it won't counter the wrongness of it.

I have always tried to answer any question as completely as possible.  I also try to assess the interest others have as well as their openness to things they may not have considered.  Rarely do I encounter – “I have considered that possibility and this is what I concluded about that and why I have concluded this”.  Mostly I have discovered that the more someone resist learning of something – the more they resist truth in general regardless of the source from which new ideas come.  And when new ideas stop so has the quest or desire for truth

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm well aware of your views on agency. I consider your view skewed. It's one of those things that is such a basic gospel principle that it's not worth explaining. If someone who is an educated, intelligent member cannot understand the matter then it is clear they do not want to, and all the explaining in the world isn't going to do any good. Of course none your explanation has anything to do with our points concerning authority to receive any given revelation or not. 

 

I do not believe you have a clue what my views on agency actually are - it appears to me you have made conclusions on things you do not understand nor care consider in actual detail.  This I surmise from the questions you ask and do not ask.  I assume you have chosen to not know or understand my views.  Actually I do not believe our views to be as different as you do.  I would ask more questions to clarify but in the past you have indicated you are not interested in deep discussion.  I respect that and do not want to force a discussion where it is not wanted.  I had hoped to learn from you – but my honest impressions is that you do not enjoy our interchanges.  Mostly I have tried to clarify what you believe.  When I have posted any part of what I believe – I do not believe you have asked a single question to clarify anything.  If you have asked any question – I apologize because it appears at this point that you have come to a conclusion and do not want any conclusion you have made challenged.  We seem to be going in circles – whenever I try to respond to something I think you may be referencing – you say things like “I'm well aware of your views on agency” but when I ask a question to clarify – you do not seem to be aware of hardly the smallest if any detail.

 

Quote

I didn't say I 'only' wanted a yes or no. I just so rarely get a yes or no that I rarely truly get your position. As to whether you want to explain it or not is up to you. If you believe such revelations can be and are given outside of one's stewardship then you are simply wrong. The why of it might be interesting...but it won't counter the wrongness of it.

I have always tried to answer any question as completely as possible.  I also try to assess the interest others have as well as their openness to things they may not have considered.  Rarely do I encounter – “I have considered that possibility and this is what I concluded about that and why I have concluded this”.  Mostly I have discovered that the more someone resist learning of something – the more they resist truth in general regardless of the source from which new ideas come.  And when new ideas stop so has the quest or desire for truth

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I have always tried to answer any question as completely as possible.  I also try to assess the interest others have as well as their openness to things they may not have considered. 

 

You do fine Traveler. Remember that 99% of the time online "miscommunications" are the result of both parties, not just one. One will only hear what they want to and ignore what they don't. It's human nature. 

[The Folk Prophet]

On 6/21/2016 at 2:24 PM, Traveler said:

I do not believe you have a clue what my views on agency actually are - it appears to me you have made conclusions on things you do not understand nor care consider in actual detail.

I understand quite well actually. We have discussed this in length many, many times. The fact that I disagree does not mean I do not understand.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

This I surmise from the questions you ask and do not ask.

If I had a dollar for questions I've asked or points I have raised in the past that have gone unanswered or unaddressed... *sigh* Of course you answer my posts in general...you just disregard any hard questions that counter your ideas. 

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

Actually I do not believe our views to be as different as you do. 

Apparently then your ability to explain sucks. We've been back and forth on this issue for months. You seem to forget that you debate every point I make as strongly as I've debated the points you make. If we believe similarly you utterly have failed to show it.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

 I had hoped to learn from you

I have no sense of this whatsoever.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

but my honest impressions is that you do not enjoy our interchanges.

You are correct. Not 100% of the time. But often.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

Mostly I have tried to clarify what you believe.

I believe what the prophets and apostles teach. It's really not that complicated.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

I do not believe you have asked a single question to clarify anything.

This is, at the very least, more evidence of the fact that you are oblivious to what's actually happening in our interchanges. I have asked many questions of you. If I cared to I'd go through our post history and prove the matter. But I don't care to. But you clearly have a short-term memory when it comes to these things. Either that or you are being unscrupulous to try and make it seem all the other guy's fault.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

you say things like “I'm well aware of your views on agency” but when I ask a question to clarify – you do not seem to be aware of hardly the smallest if any detail.

I have literally quoted you like 20 times in one post...the exact words you said...THE EXACT WORDS in plain English. Once more...either you didn't mean what you said...in which case you have failed to communicate and failed to clarify, which is not my fault, or I understand quite well, in which case your accusations are flawed. Either way, I'm not particularly bothered. Either way, I understand the English words you use very well. If you don't mean to say what you said, you still said it, and it still means what it means.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

I have always tried to answer any question as completely as possible. 

True. My problem isn't with the lack of content in your responses...it's in the clarity. Apparently everything you've said on the matter isn't what you really meant.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

“I have considered that possibility and this is what I concluded about that and why I have concluded this”. 

I have considered the possibility that your views on agency are accurate, and what I have concluded is that many of them are wrong because they are plainly contrary to what the church teaches on agency.

The reason our discussions in the matter have been recently cut short by me is because there is nowhere else to go. You believe you are right. I believe you are wrong. So there it is. Oh well. Go on believing as you do. I just don't care to debate it back and forth endlessly to no avail.

On 6/21/2016 at 2:26 PM, Traveler said:

Mostly I have discovered that the more someone resist learning of something – the more they resist truth in general regardless of the source from which new ideas come.  And when new ideas stop so has the quest or desire for truth

This is the kind of arrogant boloney that makes discussions with you unpleasant. Anyone who disagrees with you must be resistant to truth. Anyone who doesn't see it your way isn't open to new ideas.

My disagreeing with you is nothing more or less than that and I don't particularly care for the insinuations and outright accusations of this sort. They are unpleasant.

Edited June 24, 2016 by The Folk Prophet

[Blackmarch]

On June 20, 2016 at 0:12 PM, Traveler said:

I like your post and idea - G-d has never commanded that we breath nor is there revelation telling us to do so -  And so I wonder how it is that some remain alive for more than just a few minutes??????

 

The Traveler

Hmm interesting insight, although not really the direction i was going, i think... In this sort of situations imo god gave whatever commands which were necessary during the creation, the consequences of which cascaded down to enable us to breathe, and perhaps as well whatever it is he does or did that enables us exist each second. Im sure that there are commands and knowledge that he issues to cause that to happen- these we know little to none on, or possibly might not have been shared to the public, or allowed to fade if they were.

I think there is a lot of knowledge that isnt necessary for us to have revelation on, but if we come to it by other means, god isnt too worried about it.

 

I was thinking more on why we dont generally dont get or dont get more revelation, and i narrow it down to three camps;

A, it will condemn us, B, it is useless to us at that point, or C we'll share it with other people.

[Traveler]

7 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

Hmm interesting insight, although not really the direction i was going, i think... In this sort of situations imo god gave whatever commands which were necessary during the creation, the consequences of which cascaded down to enable us to breathe, and perhaps as well whatever it is he does or did that enables us exist each second. Im sure that there are commands and knowledge that he issues to cause that to happen- these we know little to none on, or possibly might not have been shared to the public, or allowed to fade if they were.

I think there is a lot of knowledge that isnt necessary for us to have revelation on, but if we come to it by other means, god isnt too worried about it.

 

I was thinking more on why we dont generally dont get or dont get more revelation, and i narrow it down to three camps;

A, it will condemn us, B, it is useless to us at that point, or C we'll share it with other people.

Our thinking may not be so different by my conclusion may be.  I think that the reason someone can receive revelation is singular – that is - we receive revelation by covenant.  The reason we do not receive revelation boils down to two reasons.  1.  That we do not have a covenant to receive revelation or a particular revelation.  2. We have broken the covenant we have to receive the revelation.

 

The reasoning you provide may give more detail but it is my understanding that G-d deals with man by and through covenants.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 8:28 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

I have no doubt that "all" things will be revealed to all who are worthy...

...at some point.

 

At some point????? Really???? At some point even the wicked will have access to all things that are true.  I believe the correct doctrine is that those that seek, ask and knock will be given.  I am inclinded to think and believe that when revelation and truth is not revealed it is not a problem of G-d preventing it but rather those that do not receive it.  In scripture I can find examples of those not receiving revelation for lack of faith but I know of none that indicate G-d does not reveal some or certain things that are true because he does not want truth to be known.

If someone does not know of things that are true - I do not ever assume that G-d if the fault of that.  My assumption is that it is far more likely that the individual does not care or wish to know such truth  -  or they are listining to a lying spirit and very much like what they hear.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

At some point????? Really????

Yes. Really.

Er...I mean...

Really!!!!!!!!! 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

At some point even the wicked will have access to all things that are true.

I disbelieve this. Do you have any evidence that this is so?

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I disbelieve this. Do you have any evidence that this is so?

Yes - all references that imply or indicate that G-d is just.

 

The Traveler

[rpframe]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

At some point????? Really???? At some point even the wicked will have access to all things that are true.  I believe the correct doctrine is that those that seek, ask and knock will be given.  I am inclinded to think and believe that when revelation and truth is not revealed it is not a problem of G-d preventing it but rather those that do not receive it.  In scripture I can find examples of those not receiving revelation for lack of faith but I know of none that indicate G-d does not reveal some or certain things that are true because he does not want truth to be known.

If someone does not know of things that are true - I do not ever assume that G-d if the fault of that.  My assumption is that it is far more likely that the individual does not care or wish to know such truth  -  or they are listining to a lying spirit and very much like what they hear.

 

The Traveler

I'm with traveler on this one. God will not judge us in ignorance. At judgement day we will know the truth and feel the full weight of the sins that we refuse to forsake. But even knowing the truth, some will reject portions of it.

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, rpframe said:

I'm with traveler on this one. God will not judge us in ignorance. At judgement day we will know the truth and feel the full weight of the sins that we refuse to forsake. But even knowing the truth, some will reject portions of it.

For justice to prevail there is certainly truth that must be known. Certainly all will know of their guilt...all that will be shouted from the rooftops...and certainly all will know Jesus is the Christ and what the Atonement meant and did for us. And certainly any other applicable knowledge related to justice will be known. But I'm not sure that implies that all things will be known by the wicked. In point of fact, I think it is quite safe to say that some things must be kept from the wicked. The glory of God is intelligence. Hence...only those who inherit all that God has will receive such glory and such intelligence.

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, rpframe said:

I'm with traveler on this one. God will not judge us in ignorance. At judgement day we will know the truth and feel the full weight of the sins that we refuse to forsake. But even knowing the truth, some will reject portions of it.

For justice to prevail there is certainly truth that must be known. Certainly all will know of their guilt...all that will be shouted from the rooftops...and certainly all will know Jesus is the Christ and what the Atonement meant and did for us. And certainly any other applicable knowledge related to justice will be known. But I'm not sure that implies that all things will be known by the wicked. In point of fact, I think it is quite safe to say that some things must be kept from the wicked. The glory of God is intelligence. Hence...only those who inherit all that God has will receive such glory and such intelligence.

[Vort]

42 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Yes - all references that imply or indicate that G-d is just.

Non sequitur. God's justice does not preclude the ignorance of the wicked. On the contrary, it assures such a state.

[rpframe]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For justice to prevail there is certainly truth that must be known. Certainly all will know of their guilt...all that will be shouted from the rooftops...and certainly all will know Jesus is the Christ and what the Atonement meant and did for us. And certainly any other applicable knowledge related to justice will be known. But I'm not sure that implies that all things will be known by the wicked. In point of fact, I think it is quite safe to say that some things must be kept from the wicked. The glory of God is intelligence. Hence...only those who inherit all that God has will receive such glory and such intelligence.

Maybe I should clarify, I think we mean "all" in the sense of "everything pertaining to life on earth and salvation". Similarly to how Satan was fully informed about the plan to come to earth and get a body, but rejected it anyway.

Besides I'm pretty sure "How to make your own universe" is probably a bit beyond the skill and mental capacity of imperfect beings.