Is God still in the lives of atheists even though they have rejected Him?

[tesuji]

24 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Thank you. He actually has applied for two teaching jobs at a local university.  ( adjunct prof.)  But hasn't heard anything from them.  He's a great teacher! He's also read a dozen books with the theme of "What Am I Good At?" or "What do I want to be when I grow up?"(for grown ups in a career crisis).   He even purchased a web-domain to do consulting if nothing shows up soon. But this is one man who is very risk adverse. He will not step off this sinking ship until another ship or at least a very sturdy lifeboat comes along. I'm also trying ( albeit reluctantly) to renew a lapsed RN license of 24 years so that I can help if necessary. THAT is not easy with this even older-than-her-husband middle aged brain!  I'm seriously afraid I'd inadvertently kill someone if I went back to work in the hospital.  I have so many "senior moments" these days that I'm dangerous. As well as half deaf. I really shouldn't be doing any work where life is at stake. 

 

I can't say the doors to heaven are completely locked shut.  I have to admit two impressions (if I can trust them to be such. I'm a little leary after our last escapade.) 1- I should really get my license back. (  I'd rather not but...)  And 2- Family relationships are more important than going on another far away, remote adventure for work.  That means things would have to work out in one of two locations. And neither are a sure thing at this point.  And either one would require sacrifice on the part of someone in the family. On the other hand, the most promising looking job would take us to a state that is probably #1 on my list of places I don't want to live. 

So yes, we're getting some heavenly instruction. But it certainly isn't making a lot of sense.  I do still wonder if atheists have the whole thinking process a little simpler. I wouldn't ever want to take the risk to find that out by rejecting God. But I'd at least know my decisions are my own and I wouldn't have to try to figure out nebulous messages that aren't quite coming in clear or just don't seem logical.  If I make the right choice I can take all the credit. If I make the wrong choice, it's all on me and I don't have to be mad at deity for either not making it clear enough or mad at myself for not being righteous enough to get the  correct message. 

Again, best of luck. Yeah, sometimes jumping into a new path is scary. 

I assume atheists just use their own wits to figure things out. Sad for them - God knows so much more than we do what we need.

But - I think that's why God tries us too, because he wants us to be able to stand on our own; something (I assume) atheists sometimes are better at than we are.

[carlimac]

1 hour ago, tesuji said:

 

I assume atheists just use their own wits to figure things out. Sad for them - God knows so much more than we do what we need.

But - I think that's why God tries us too, because he wants us to be able to stand on our own; something (I assume) atheists sometimes are better at than we are.

I wonder why this is. it shouldn't be this way. We should be more confident with the Lord on our side. 

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, tesuji said:

I assume atheists just use their own wits to figure things out. 

This just about sums it up. Granted, my wit is far from perfect, but it's all I have. And the way I see it, my success/fail rate in my life's endeavors ultimately aren't that much different from a theist in my same position. We're all trying to do the right thing for ourselves and our families. We just take different paths to get there. And we all have ups and downs along the way.

2 hours ago, tesuji said:

But - I think that's why God tries us too, because he wants us to be able to stand on our own; something (I assume) atheists sometimes are better at than we are.

We don't have much of a choice, do we? 

[Anddenex]

20 hours ago, carlimac said:

I wonder why this is. it shouldn't be this way. We should be more confident with the Lord on our side. (emphasis for point)

Part of life is for us to remove what we feel things should be, and what they actually are. In my thoughts, I would agree, "Why is it this way"? However, my first thoughts turn to one particular scripture referring to God being no respecter of persons.

I have wondered why one of my sons has received the witness that God lives he has, while my other children have not. My son has received a greater witness than even I, and the witness he has received I wish to receive one day before I die.

My other children have not; although they have prayed. One of my sons, will ask the question, "What if God doesn't answer your prayer"? Whereas, my other son will give witness, "Yes, pray, it really works." In my own children's life, this intrigues me, and yet all things are done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Over the past 17 years of my marriage, I haven't been successful in any of my vocations, despite my many prayers. In this case, we simply move forward, doing the best we can in the understanding "nevertheless the Lord suffered it." For whatever reason, the Lord is suffering your circumstance, and only you and your husband will discover the bread and water of life through that avenue. It might not be until you are further away from this scenario until you see the truth, and then you go, "Ah, that is why."

The key though, never give up (not saying you are, just reiterating something you already know)!

May you be further blessed with faith, hope, and charity that will abound you in all good works.

[Just_A_Guy]

On 7/14/2016 at 6:27 PM, Godless said:

We don't have much of a choice, do we? 

Of course you have a choice.  Would you like for two young men to visit your home and talk to you about our Heavenly Father's plan and the role of choice in that plan? 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[CV75]

On 7/11/2016 at 8:57 PM, carlimac said:

When we as believers have problems in our lives we almost immediately turn to prayer and ask for help from our Heavenly Father. We also believe that Jesus can soothe our souls and help us resolve our issues through His atonement.  And when our issues are solved, hopefully we then thank our heavenly Father for His help. 

So I assume that atheists don't turn to God with their problems. But I also assume that they don't often just hang onto their hardships their whole lives, either. Unemployment comes to an end, Relationships have their downs but their ups, too. Illnesses are cured and sticky problems in life are done away with for them, perhaps at about the same rate as for believers.

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

Yes, of course He is in their lives. D&C 88, which teaches about the light of Christ, operates in all God's children and in the world around them.  They do not recognize the operation and influence of the light of Christ as divine, but they can have morals, charity, intelligence, etc. that blesses the lives of others. They call the light of Christ something else, and have another explanation for what we understand to be God's influence and works. I think "reject" is too a strong word; only sons of perdition do this.

[nuclearfuels]

The eternal laws and principles by which God operates remain intact and in force on all of His creations.  God didn't create these eternal truths but he complies with them and IMHO we all will have to if we want to become like Him. The problem comes in assuming there is some huge, giant gap between scientific laws and eternal laws; no gap, just compliance and understanding and appreciating the Atonement and Plan of Salvation.

[nuclearfuels]

The eternal laws and principles by which God operates remain intact and in force on all of His creations.  God didn't create these eternal truths but he complies with them and IMHO we all will have to if we want to become like Him. The problem comes in assuming there is some huge, giant gap between scientific laws and eternal laws; no gap, just compliance and understanding and appreciating the Atonement and Plan of Salvation.

[Sunday21]

I was an atheist. He was in my life. Nudging me towards the path. My arm is stretched out still. He was there.

[Starlite]

[The gospel] embraces all morality, all virtue, all light, all intelligence, all greatness, and all goodness. It introduces a system of laws and ordinances (DBY, 3).

-Brigham Young

If there were a law, that was obeyed, say we call it the law of kindness, such as Jesus taught, for us to be kind to one another, and an atheist is kind, it could be said that a blessing will be bestowed upon him, regardless of his rejection of the Lord. The actual blessing is the direct result of the action of the atheist; he did good and net a blessing. May I interrupt myself? OK...I have done good and have received good, and I have done good and received a lot of horrible things; and this not because of my own doing but the unkindness and unrighteousness of another. I am in the pond and I get the ripples. I am in the ocean and I get the tsunami. Oh, well, its horrible, but its true that good things happen to bad (unrighteous) people and bad things (nasty occurrences) happen to good people. None of us is completely good so please, just humor me on that one....   

An atheist stands in need of the Lord, and it is up to the Lord how he visits that son or daughter. To say that everything is because of our own actions or decisions or an act of nature is true....and to add a thought...one other thing...or two...God can intervene regardless of the person's actions, or decision or an event of nature. He will use nature, He will use your help or mine, or whatever instrument He chooses, and it can and often does happen. Why? That's HIS business, and sometimes it is initiated by his own WILL and other times it is initiated by the plea of a concerned parent, friend, bishop, etc. Those prayers of faith will be set before the Lord and He can and does in fact, intervene. There will, somewhere in that equation, be a system of laws and ordinances that have been obeyed by someone who is in some way involved in reaching into the life of the atheist, and then the atheist receives divine intervention or due to an act not of his doing (as per this aspect of my explanation), has some "good" thing happen to him, in spite of his complete and often open rejection of Jesus Christ. Remember...Alma, the Younger? Did he receive an intervention because HE obeyed, "acted" righteously, "decided" righteously, or by "an act of nature"? I would have to say no. God moves nature; He is well above any natural movement, for He intervened. It was Alma the Elder whose faith moved the mountain because so powerful it was that God Himself sent an angel....

This is why, I believe in prayer over myself, my loved ones, over those who have despitefully used or hurt me, etc. and it can genuinely change the future, if not theirs, definitely mine. We are told to pray in faith. This is a direct command. To not pray is to be deceived by Satan. We can pray for atheists, and we can also learn much from them, for they are using at least one gift from God and that is that they do want to act of their own accord and usually accept the consequences. Should there come a day of intervention of some kind, it will be because someone has obeyed a principal or ordinance somehow and God has moved upon the situation and He most often is far more generous in His gifts than any offering or faith we have to add.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Starlite

[Sunday21]

As a former atheist, can I just make the point that atheists are not for the most part, evil? They lack knowledge but this does not make them cruel or demonic. I suspect that it is easier to convert an atheist than many others to the lds faith.

[Blueskye2]

On 7/10/2016 at 6:57 PM, carlimac said:

When we as believers have problems in our lives we almost immediately turn to prayer and ask for help from our Heavenly Father. We also believe that Jesus can soothe our souls and help us resolve our issues through His atonement.  And when our issues are solved, hopefully we then thank our heavenly Father for His help. 

So I assume that atheists don't turn to God with their problems. But I also assume that they don't often just hang onto their hardships their whole lives, either. Unemployment comes to an end, Relationships have their downs but their ups, too. Illnesses are cured and sticky problems in life are done away with for them, perhaps at about the same rate as for believers.

So do you think that it's the influence of God that is helping them, despite their rejection of Him? Or is it simply mind over matter or that they develop other ways of coping mentally and emotionally with their issues?

If we attribute all our blessings to deity, how do we account for successes (blessings) for those who don't believe?  They obviously don't ask for those blessings...from God anyway. 

Can anyone find scriptures to help with this question?

As a convert from atheism to Christianity, my experience is, when I look back on my atheist years I notice what I was unable to notice as an atheist. But I think St. Therese of Lisiex said it how it is: “Just as the sun shines on all the trees and flowers as if each were the only one on earth, so does God care for all souls in a special manner.”

[Larry Cotrell]

I believe God tries to reveal Himself to them, but that is where it ends until they accept Him.

 James 1:6-7 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

John 9:31 is another notable verse, "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Larry Cotrell

[Guest]

My brother is an atheist of about 3 years. I see God's hand in his life. I hope someday he recognizes it again. He's a good man, and I believe he's blessed for his goodness. I also believe our prayers in his behalf are heard and answered.

[wenglund]

On 7/11/2016 at 1:13 PM, tesuji said:

We are all children of God..

...and thus God is within all of us "genetically." We all bear his image and likeness.  The created will always bear the mark of the creator.

Thanks, Wade Englund

[wenglund]

On 7/11/2016 at 0:54 PM, Godless said:

It's difficult to contribute to a discussion when I don't accept a key part of the premise, which is that there is a higher power who occasionally intervenes in and directs our daily lives. I feel no need to find a supernatural explanation when something good happens to me, nor the need to blame something intangible when something bad happens to me. Everything that happens to me is the result of a decision I make, a decision someone else makes, or an act of nature. There's nothing outside of those three factors that controls my destiny. 

Would it be fair to say that the god (higher power) that is within most atheist is statism?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Guest Godless]

10 hours ago, wenglund said:

Would it be fair to say that the god (higher power) that is within most atheist is statism?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god(s). That's it. By definition, it doesn't come with any political baggage. Heck, it actually comes with a lot less religious baggage (again, by definition) than many people realize. 

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, Godless said:

No. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god(s). That's it. By definition, it doesn't come with any political baggage. Heck, it actually comes with a lot less religious baggage (again, by definition) than many people realize. 

Atheism is a form of skepticism. After all, atheists by definition are skeptical of the existence of God. I would think they would also be skeptical of a central authority like state as well. While it's true, most atheists I know lean leftward-there are some right leaning ones out there. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by MormonGator

[Traveler]

I have been making the point that intelligence is the engine of evolution.  That evolution is impossible without intelligence.  That the stand of atheists is in essence that there is no intelligence especially intelligence higher than human intelligence (no proof – means not possible) and in essence that human intelligence is pseudo intelligence that really does not exist. But is a temporary unreal phenomena that only seems real for some insignificant time in the reality of unending space time.  This is why I purport that atheists  are as misguided in the disbelief of G-d as they are in the hopeless claim that justice exists, can exist or be believed without G-d.  Without G-d justice (or even a belief in justice) becomes as unstainable as a quantum anomaly.  – Likewise any other human invented false hope such as kindness, love, compassion or any other “good” thing.  Without G-d there is nothing but death and the eventual end of all intelligence and any other dream of benefit.  There is no choice there is nothing that is good, bad or indifferent – eventually nothing matters because nothing changes the inevitable end result and will all eventually ends and be 100% meaningless.  And that includes the pseudo choices of the atheists.

I must admit that I do not understand that atheists think themselves intelligent in their rejection of G-d when such a belief cannot possibly have any impact or reason in the grand scheme of things - because if their view is true nothing at all matters and if false it is the greatest possible blunder of existence.  I find that notion void of any possible intelligence not the best possible example of it.

 

The Traveler

[Guest Godless]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

I must admit that I do not understand that atheists think themselves intelligent in their rejection of G-d when such a belief cannot possibly have any impact or reason in the grand scheme of things

A mind unencumbered by intangible beliefs in supernatural forces is a mind that can do great things to advance our materialistic understanding of the world we live in. That's not to say that theists can't/don't make or haven't made important scientific discoveries to increase our understanding of the universe and enhance our worldview, but the fact is that religion has historically been one of the greatest roadblocks to scientific progress. In that sense, atheism holds plenty of potential for impact in the great scheme of things, whereas theism can only remain objective in the realm of science so long as it doesn't clash with dogma.

- because if their view is true nothing at all matters

My life matters to the people who I am fortunate enough to call loved ones. Where questions of meaning and mortal significance are concerned, you and I have a very different sense of scale, but that doesn't mean that I can't find meaning and/or purpose in my existence. Will the things I do in this life have a lasting impact after I'm gone? Probably not, but wishing for a greater meaning outside of mortality and actually having it are two very different things. And FWIW, I don't wish for any kind of ultimate post-mortal fulfillment. I came to peace with my mortality years ago. 

and if false it is the greatest possible blunder of existence.  I find that notion void of any possible intelligence not the best possible example of it.

That's sounding dangerously close to Pascal's Wager. The great paradox of religious ideology is the idea that you believe or you burn, but without any assurance (outside of the very subjective confines of faith) that you're following the right ideology. Is it really so much of a blunder then to distrust all of those ideologies equally?

 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Godless said:

 Is it really so much of a blunder then to distrust all of those ideologies equally?

To a degree all belief systems are leaps of faith. From atheism to fundamentalist religious belief. You can't prove God exists, but you can't prove a negative either.  Even hardcore atheists like Freud (a man who I have HUGE respect for) and Hume knew and accepted this. 

[Windseeker]

Atheism is the ultimate fast-food religion. It asserts the disbelief in a god no one believes in. It makes sense that despite the evidence they would think religion encumbers progress. The atheist contribution to human advancement is a rain drop in the ocean compared with that of theists. It's true from time to time certain religions have stood in the way of fellow theists and their scientific advancements, but science itself and it's methods come from religion and the desire to discover the intelligence of god in his creation. Every advancement any atheist makes is done on the shoulders of god worshiping theists. 

When it comes to virtue don't get me started. the worst tyrants and offenders of mankind are atheists. 

So like I said, it's fast-food for the self-absorbed, self-obsessed and hyper ambitious. 

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Windseeker

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Godless said:

A mind unencumbered by intangible beliefs in supernatural forces is a mind that can do great things to advance our materialistic understanding of the world we live in.

Behold the insistent, and completely unproven, mantra of the disbeliever. "We are not weighed down by a foolish belief in an unseen being!" This is Korihor's argument in Alma 30, and it can be most convincing to those who don't actually bother to think about it.

Everyone believes things they haven't "proven for themselves." E-v-e-r-y-o-n-e. No exceptions. Perhaps you personally have engaged in number theory enough to prove the consistency of the system you use, and have personally reviewed and proven why Newtonian calculus works, and have personally verified the correctness of the usage of Dirac notation in particle physics, and have both mathematically and observationally verified all of Einstein's gravitational equations.

Oh, wait. No. You haven't. That's ridiculous. You believe people whom you think are authorized to make statements, and you have reason to believe them. So please, do not patronize us any longer with the patently false absurdity that our minds are simply benighted by our silly superstitions.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Godless said:

A mind unencumbered by intangible beliefs in supernatural forces is a mind that can do great things to advance our materialistic understanding of the world we live in. That's not to say that theists can't/don't make or haven't made important scientific discoveries to increase our understanding of the universe and enhance our worldview, but the fact is that religion has historically been one of the greatest roadblocks to scientific progress.

16 hours ago, Windseeker said:

It's true from time to time certain religions have stood in the way of fellow theists and their scientific advancements, but science itself and it's methods come from religion and the desire to discover the intelligence of god in his creation. Every advancement any atheist makes is done on the shoulders of god worshiping theists. 

Specifically, the religions that have hampered scientific progress are the ones who have exercised statist powers against scientific discovery.  Those religions who stay within the realm of religion or have a healthy respect for both arms of truth have had a tremendous impact on scientific discovery.

It is interesting to note that the Catholic Church (often cited as the cause of the dark ages) both helped and hampered scientific discovery.  They not only tried people for heresy based on some scientific discoveries, they also funded many universities and paid friars and monks to advance many scientific discoveries which were published throughout the world.  The church was a the leading sponsor for scientific research throughout the world.  And despite trials -- I've never heard of anyone being burned at the stake for claiming some scientific discovery.

Prior to public schools being instituted in the US, religions were the primary sponsors of education in this country.  Church sponsored schools were the norm.  That's how we became educated in the first place.

Isaac Newton formulated his three laws and Universal Gravitation based on the belief that a God of order created a universe of order with immutable laws.  Therefore, there must be laws of what we now call "science" which are now termed "physical laws".  This is not simply a theist who came up with a scientific discovery.  It is a scientific discovery born directly out of a religious belief.

Before that, we had some geometry that was developed with the religious influence on architecture.

Even the golden age of Islam resulted from the spread of Islam throughout the Middle east.  From the social order that Islam provided, centuries of scientific development was realized in that region of the world.  While they had statist powers, they did not use those powers to hamper scientific development, but rather provide for it.

Confucianism promoted just as many advances in the Far East during its heyday in history.

To deny such influence of the proper marriage between science and religion is to deny centuries of history in favor of a few decades and a few instances where they have clashed.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Guest

[Blueskye2]

4 hours ago, Godless said:

A mind unencumbered by intangible beliefs in supernatural forces is a mind that can do great things to advance our materialistic understanding of the world we live in. That's not to say that theists can't/don't make or haven't made important scientific discoveries to increase our understanding of the universe and enhance our worldview, but the fact is that religion has historically been one of the greatest roadblocks to scientific progress. In that sense, atheism holds plenty of potential for impact in the great scheme of things, whereas theism can only remain objective in the realm of science so long as it doesn't clash with dogma.

 

 

My life matters to the people who I am fortunate enough to call loved ones. Where questions of meaning and mortal significance are concerned, you and I have a very different sense of scale, but that doesn't mean that I can't find meaning and/or purpose in my existence. Will the things I do in this life have a lasting impact after I'm gone? Probably not, but wishing for a greater meaning outside of mortality and actually having it are two very different things. And FWIW, I don't wish for any kind of ultimate post-mortal fulfillment. I came to peace with my mortality years ago. 

 

 

That's sounding dangerously close to Pascal's Wager. The great paradox of religious ideology is the idea that you believe or you burn, but without any assurance (outside of the very subjective confines of faith) that you're following the right ideology. Is it really so much of a blunder then to distrust all of those ideologies equally?

 

I thought the same for some 25 years or so, then I started to notice that all minds are encumbered, by something or some things. The atheist mind is still a human mind.  I also started reading outside of atheist propaganda, and discovered that it was a Catholic, in a Catholic university, who instituted the scientific method and upon presenting it to Catholic colleagues at Catholic universities, it was received and implemented widely. I discovered a lot more than that. Most notably, the West remains highly influenced by Protestant propaganda against Catholics and Catholicism, including Protestant ideas being still entrenched in public education (and politics).

This idea of an unecumbered mind is rather Puritan in nature, if you ask me.  The pure in thought and method, kind of deal.

I also noticed that atheists have a lot to say about god(s) they don't believe in, and have in essence, built  false god(s) in which to not believe in. Personally, I found the acceptance of false god(s) to not be very true to the idea of atheism. I'd say this is more prevalent in those who were previously religious, but the ideas of the previously religious are often prominent in atheist propaganda. At any rate, I made the self observation that I wasn't a very good atheist, what with my concept of god(s) and what they are or should be, or are not.

Science is great. I love it, I mean, a great love for rational thinking, discovery and all the great things us humans do. I have a fondness for earth sciences, but that human anatomy class I had in college was a lot of fun. However, science is not philosophy, and it is kind of irksome to me that science is viewed as the end all and be all.  Scientists are human, makes mistakes, have flawed philosophies, have the flaws of humanity. Vices, greed, pride, inward focused, narcisim, etc. It isn't dogma that should hold science back it is metaphysics, in the sense as to what makes us human and to answer the questions about application of science. As what is possible isn't always in the best interest of humanity. 

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Blueskye2