Mormonism is to Christianity what Buddhism is to Hinduism?

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Mormonism is to Christianity what Buddhism is to Hinduism?

Opinion only. Agree or disagree?

DISAGREE.

Buddhism has no relation to Hinduism.  Mormonism is a restoration of Christianity.

[nuclearfuels]

Buddhism was a rejection of Hinduism, according to Siddartha.

Mormonism is a restoration of gospel truth and a rejection of false religious and spiritual teachings, which would include every other Christian religion (and other religion) at that time.

Edited July 15, 2016 by nuclearfuels

[nuclearfuels]

9 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Yes, the King Follet papers are on LDS.org. That doesn't make them canonized doctrine. Spamming the board with links to those papers doesn't make them doctrine. I don't have anything else to say on that matter.

The forum rules are at the top of the forum. You also agreed to them when you signed up, so I assume you read them. Opinions are fine, as long as you follow the guidelines in those rules. I took exception with "LDS believe..." 

I'm not trying to fight you. Just keeping in mind that many more read these forums than post, and part of my responsibility as a moderator is making sure that the Church is being represented here accurately. 

Feel free to delete the post or block me from the site entirely; no harm- no foul...but before you do, can you provide links to articles that aren't about what people teaching class on Sunday should be doing, like articles that state specifically that King Follet is not doctrine and is worth, say, what one might read in the newspaper?

If I'm not allowed to ask LDS questions on an LDS forum, please advise where I might do so.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Opinions (added: and questions) are fine, as long as you follow the guidelines in those rules.

 

[nuclearfuels]

according to your interpretation of those rules, LDS doctrine, etc....

 

whatever.

[anatess2]

8 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Buddhism was a rejection of Hinduism, according to Siddartha.

Mormonism is a restoration of gospel truth and a rejection of false truths, which would include every other Christian religion (and other religion) at that time.

This is not a correlation.

Buddhism did not get created BECAUSE of Hinduism - they have no relation.

Mormonism is not a rejection of Christianity.

A closer juxtaposition would be... Buddhism is to HInduism as Vegetarian is to Paleo-dieters.  They have absolutely no relation even though you'll find both Vegetarians and Paleo-dieters eat vegetables and even if we find that (just making this up) the founder of vegetarianism was once a Paleo-dieter.

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by anatess2

[Connie]

5 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

If I'm not allowed to ask LDS questions on an LDS forum, please advise where I might do so.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/ is a good one for heavier topics and debate. 

[zil]

7 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

false truths

Oxymoron.  False truth cannot exist.

2 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

according to your interpretation of those rules, LDS doctrine, etc....

whatever.

She's a moderator, NF (check out the text around her avatar).  That's her job.  You seem to be missing the fact that the only complaint is you making an unconditional claim as to LDS belief in something which is not canonized per the church.  All you have to do is change "LDS believe..." to "In the King Follet Sermon, Joseph Smith is reported as having taught...." (or something similar, as appropriate to the topic or quote at hand) and it's all good.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

My questions are...off / amiss?

Not off or amiss-   questions are good things.  But there are such things as good, better, and best questions.  And many questions depend on answers from other questions, so it's best to examine those questions first, so that way we have a sure foundation of knowledge.  That sure foundation will in turn let us ask better questions and get better answers that we wouldn't have understood without the foundation.

I would suggest that many of your questions are good, but better questions would address the foundation of things you're asking about first.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Jane_Doe

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Agree or disagree?

As a student of history and Buddhism I would purport that as Christianity suffered under the Great Apostasy in Western Civilization and became Traditional Christianity (mostly Catholic and Protestant) that it is possible that Christianity suffered likewise under the Great Apostasy in Eastern Civilization and became Tradition Buddhism (mostly the Mahayana and Hinayana).   Some may argue that ancient dates and times do not align for influences of Christ in Buddhism – but the reality of history – as yet - leaves doors open for the conclusions I have suggested.

 

The Traveler

[tesuji]

I still have no idea what the point of this thread is. What is it?

Just to keep things interesting, though - I as a Mormon personally believe the King Follett discourse. It was delivered by Joseph Smith. It's been published in the Ensign. The doctrine in it "tastes good" to me, as the sermon itself says. It's core doctrine, I personally feel.

Do I take it with a grain of salt - yes, I take everything with a grain of salt. I absolutely believe in the scriptures, but even in that case, I take my own interpretation of them with a grain of salt - who knows if I'm understanding them correctly.

Edited July 14, 2016 by tesuji

[tesuji]

From the conclusion of official Gospel Topic "Becoming Like God"

Quote

All human beings are children of loving heavenly parents and possess seeds of divinity within them. In His infinite love, God invites His children to cultivate their eternal potential by the grace of God, through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of humans’ eternal potential to become like their Heavenly Father is central to the gospel of Jesus Christ and inspires love, hope, and gratitude in the hearts of faithful Latter-day Saints.

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

 

[LeSellers]

The hymn, "If You Could Hie to Kolob" is doctrinal: please note that the First Presidency chose the hymns it includes and signed the completed tome.

Quote

 If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

'Tseems there is no end, nor any beginning, to the "generations" of God.

Lehi

Edited July 14, 2016 by LeSellers

[bytebear]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thank you, Godless.

Not trying to upset you here, but (edit: some) LDS believe (what Joseph Smith taught and lectured though not canonized) in that "God never had the power to create Himself out of nothing," meaning He had Parents, Grandparents, etc. and also meaning that more than one God exists. LDS also believe that no one can reach the highest exaltation level alone, so Temple marraige and fidelity are required, for all - across the board, and indirectly implied, through all who have gone before us, including God Himself.

No beginning and no end, bro. 

No, this is a gross mischaracterization of Mormon belief.  There is only one God, but there are many who are gods, including you, because you are currently progressing.  And all beings are eternal with no beginning, so the notion that a grandpa God created God's dad who created God is just plain wrong.

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, bytebear said:

No, this is a gross mischaracterization of Mormon belief.  There is only one God, but there are many who are gods, including you, because you are currently progressing.  And all beings are eternal with no beginning, so the notion that a grandpa God created God's dad who created God is just plain wrong.

Dear bytebear,

Claiming an argument which is directly implied from Joseph Smith's lecture is "just plain wrong," is not an argument, does not contribute to a discussion / debate / anything.  That is an opinion, not validated by anything.  To strengthen your claim, you could provide things like references which, most likely, like most of the other posters on this topic, will be articles that instruct people on how to teach more effectively in church, on Sunday or - as if that is related, but hey, at least they provide a reference.  I should "like" their comment for that reason alone. 

Why is it so troubling for you to grasp?

God didn't and couldn't create Himself out of nothing. Something or more likely, someone (probably two someones) created Him. Not that we worship His Parents, Grandparents, etc. which I never claimed anyway, but just to reiterate.

Perhaps I should restate my point: SOME (see how that's not all inclusive?) LDS believe that God didn't create Himself out of nothing, like Joseph Smith taught verbatim. This teaching, a true and good, "tasting good" principle, directly indicates Someone else created God the Father.  God progressed as we are now and followed His God, just as His God had done and so on and so forth, forever. No beginning and no end.  While this principle does not mean all LDS are polytheists, it demonstrates how polytheism took some of the divine truths of the gospel, tweaked them / apostatized the doctrine, and that all religions, polytheism and monotheism, have the same origin (God, Jehovah, Adam and Eve) as well as the same origin eternally (intelligences, spirit bodies, mortal bodies, etc.). So we're really not all that different, biologically, spiritually, heritage-wise, etc.

[nuclearfuels]

16 hours ago, LeSellers said:

The hymn, "If You Could Hie to Kolob" is doctrinal: please note that the First Presidency chose the hymns it includes and signed the completed tome.

'Tseems there is no end, nor any beginning, to the "generations" of God.

Lehi

That's absolutely correct. 

God has a genealogy, just like the rest of us.  All Those in His Genealogy probably do the same thing He does, which is the same thing He wants us to do.

Not sure why this is so offensive to some people. Seems beautiful and inspiring to me.

[nuclearfuels]

16 hours ago, tesuji said:

From the conclusion of official Gospel Topic "Becoming Like God"

 

This is also absolutely correct.

We can become like God, just as He became like His God, who became like HIs God, etc. etc.

One eternal round.

 

[nuclearfuels]

18 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is not a correlation.

Buddhism did not get created BECAUSE of Hinduism - they have no relation.

Mormonism is not a rejection of Christianity.

A closer juxtaposition would be... Buddhism is to HInduism as Vegetarian is to Paleo-dieters.  They have absolutely no relation even though you'll find both Vegetarians and Paleo-dieters eat vegetables and even if we find that (just making this up) the founder of vegetarianism was once a Paleo-dieter.

 

Buddhism's creation/revealing was as strong a rejection of Hinduism as Mormonism's Restoration was a rejection of apostatized Christianity.  

If Mormonism isn't a rejection of Christianity, what is it? A slightly helpful nudge in the right direction...to those who have been taught false principles....for the past 18 centuries or so. Come on.

[nuclearfuels]

Lest we forget, Buddhism also believes, as LDS do, that plants and animals have spirits/consciousness.  This demonstrates another similarity between the two, which are restorations/instaurations/break-offs/rejections of the then-dominant religion, Hinduism and Protestant Christianity.

 

Do animals have spirits and are they resurrected? Yes. The Prophet Joseph Smith received information concerning the eternal status of animals. Answers to questions he posed are in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 77. He also spoke about the resurrection of animals in a sermon but did not expand on the subject. (History of the Church, 5:343.)

To what degree of glory do animals go? The scriptures speak only of animals being in the celestial kingdom. Whether they go to other kingdoms is a matter of conjecture. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith on one occasion said the distribution of animals into all three degrees of glory is “very probable,” (Improvement Era, Jan. 1958, pp. 16–17.) To my knowledge, no other prophet has published an opinion on the subject.

Are animals judged and resurrected according to their obedience to laws? According to Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, animals do not have a conscience. They cannot sin and they cannot repent, for they have not the knowledge of right and wrong. (Man: His Origin and Destiny, Deseret Book Co., 1954, pp. 204–5.)

Can animals be with their owners in the hereafter? There is no revealed word on this subject. Reason would tell us that a rancher or farmer may not want all of the cattle he has owned during his life. On the other hand, emotional ties may be honored and family pets may well be restored to their owners in the resurrection. Elder Orson F. Whitney wrote that Joseph Smith expected to have his favorite horse in eternity. (Improvement Era, Aug. 1927, p. 855.)

Just what is the relationship between men and animals? Men are children of God. Animals are for the benefit of man. This does not mean, however, that man is not to have a concern for this part of his stewardship. The prophets in all ages have indicated that man will be accountable for his treatment of animals and that justice and mercy should be exercised concerning them. Alma encourages us to pray over our flocks. (Alma 34:20, 25.) There are numerous examples in Church history of animals being administered to by the anointing of oil and their resultant healing. In the best-known incident, Mary Fielding Smith’s oxen were spared to bring her pioneer family, including a future President of the Church, Joseph F. Smith, to Utah. (Preston Nibley, Presidents of the Church, Deseret Book Co., 1959, pp. 234–35.)

Though the prophets have spoken frequently about man’s responsibility to show proper treatment to animals in this world, very little detail is known about the states of animals in the eternities. Greater emphasis is rightly placed upon man’s need to live the gospel and be worthy to return to his Heavenly Father where he will then learn the answers to such questions. Quoting again from the editorial cited at the beginning of this article: “Men cannot worship the Creator and look with careless indifference upon his creations. The love of all life helps man to the enjoyment of a better life. It exalts the spiritual nature of those in need of divine favor.” (Juvenile Instructor, Apr. 1918, p. 182.)

Edited July 15, 2016 by nuclearfuels

[Traveler]

If a devout LDS was to visit an ancient or long standing Buddhist grave yard and look around they would see things and wonder where such things had roots in the past.  Likewise Buddhism underwent some rather interesting “transformations” of refinements in the first century BC up through the 3rd and 4^th century BC – similar to Christianity.  It is also interesting that at the end of this cycle of transformation and refinement that much of the great texts being preserved in libraries (such as the great Library of Alexandria in Egypt were destroyed – all about the same time period in history) which were destroyed from Eastern libraries.  Hmmmmm where did the Kings come from???

One of the greatest archeological finds of the most ancient hidden Buddhist manuscripts also contain New Testament texts.  But Christians are not interested in ancient Buddhist archeological finds – they cannot even deal honestly with the Dead Sea Scrolls – calling the texts Essen when many of the scribes at what Christians call Qumran were also at Masada and no one has ever suggested that Masada was Essen.  And the biggest cover up of all – is the ancient name of the settlement – Big hint – it was not Qumran it was Damascus.

My point being my friend nuclearfuels – you do not have to make anything up with wild theories of speculation – a detailed study of history will provide all the fuel to controversy one can handle.

 

The Traveler

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Buddhism's creation/revealing was as strong a rejection of Hinduism as Mormonism's Restoration was a rejection of apostatized Christianity.  

If Mormonism isn't a rejection of Christianity, what is it? A slightly helpful nudge in the right direction...to those who have been taught false principles....for the past 18 centuries or so. Come on.

"Mormonism" is not a REJECTION of Christianity.  It's a RESTORATION.  When you restore Christianity, you don't have intensions of becoming non-Christian.

As far as Buddhism being a rejection of Hinduism that is not why Buddhism exists.  The founder rejected Hinduism, true.  But Buddhism doesn't exist as a restoration of Hinduism or even in exchange of Hinduism.  Buddhism, as founded, is simply a collection of philosophies of good living that the founder believes leads to enlightenment.  Hinduism and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive.

Edited July 15, 2016 by anatess2

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

This is also absolutely correct.

We can become like God, just as He became like His God, who became like HIs God, etc. etc.

One eternal round.

 

Slight correction.  We don't just become LIKE God.  We can BECOME God.

This is where the ONE God teaching becomes important in distinction.

Edited July 15, 2016 by anatess2

[Traveler]

I am wondering if our new forum friend nuclearfuels is a little on the younger side - if so perhapse we older types could cut him/her a little slack.

The Traveler

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Buddhism's creation/revealing was as strong a rejection of Hinduism as Mormonism's Restoration was a rejection of apostatized Christianity.  

If Mormonism isn't a rejection of Christianity, what is it? A slightly helpful nudge in the right direction...to those who have been taught false principles....for the past 18 centuries or so. Come on.

Nuclearfuels, gramatically speaking, the term "Christian" denotes a lifestyle as well as a dogma.  Even if we could get past our devotion to Jesus of Nazareth long enough to acknowledge that maybe some of our non-core teachings take us outside of the ideological ballpark of traditional Christian denominations:  given that where lifestyle is concerned Mormons are out-Christian-ing most self-identified Christians, you can't possibly expect any Mormon to acknowledge their religion as a "rejection of Christianity"--can you?

If you're just trying to mine a quote that you can then take back to your anti-Mormon buddies so that you can all cluck together about how much smarter you are than us heretics, then I suppose I could indulge you with the following: 

"Mormonism certainly arose as a rejection of institutional Christianity.  However, it is merely a refinement of ideological Christianity and a perfection of applied Christianity."

Happy now? 

17 hours ago, bytebear said:

No, this is a gross mischaracterization of Mormon belief.  There is only one God, but there are many who are gods, including you, because you are currently progressing.  And all beings are eternal with no beginning, so the notion that a grandpa God created God's dad who created God is just plain wrong.

I get the distinction between "binding authority" (aka "canon") versus "persuasive authority" (ie, statements by individual Church leaders); but on this limited issue I gotta side with Nuclearfuels here.  I don't know that I've ever met, in real life, a Mormon who didn't subscribe to the notion that God attained His current exalted status through some sort of "plan of salvation" that is roughly analagous to the one we believe ourselves to be undergoing--and who didn't therefore strongly suspect, if not outright believe, that God does have His own "Heavenly Father" and "Heavenly Mother" out there somewhere.

I would hasten to add, though; that this is not technically polytheism; which is usually construed as entailing the worship (not just acknowledging the existence) of multiple gods.  We might be labeled "henotheists", but I find most discussions along these lines to be awfully pedantic and generally calculated to downplay Mormonism's Christian nature and create an association with bizarre pagan rituals or ideas that just isn't true. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

If Mormonism isn't a rejection of Christianity, what is it? 

An affirmation of the reality and divinity of Christ from the other side of the planet.  A second witness that bolsters Christian claims that Jesus is the Christ, our Savior.

Yeah, all those who believe in Christ then join the massive dogpile brawl and argue about details and word definitions and theology and truth and scripture and whose specific flavor is better than the others.  But we're in that pile, not the Islamic or Buddhist or Hindu or Zoroastrian pile.

Edited July 15, 2016 by NeuroTypical