Struggling with my Feelings About Tithing

[Guest]

Attitude does have a lot to do with it, but it's also good to learn to be resourceful (which it sounds like you're doing). I can't help but think that this experience in frugal living is a blessing in itself, as the economy doesn't appear to be improving anytime soon for the middle class. How many women do you know who don't know how to cook from scratch or live on a budget?

I'm a piano teacher who barters for haircuts and sometimes other things. Sometimes getting creative gets things I wouldn't normally have, while the person on the other end gets piano lessons for their kid where they might not otherwise. Win-win. Creativity fills in a lot of gaps. 

[estradling75]

19 minutes ago, ldsister said:

Oh well. Perhaps I simply need to care less about whether the kids get piano lessons or school photos. I do think that would help. 

I recently read a saying on a shop wall that I think is very true... It said "Gratitude... Makes what you have enough"

It sounds to me that you have a life that would be the envy of many of God's children on this planet.  Yet you seem to be suffering because you desire "more"

Now there is nothing inherently wrong with piano lessons or school photos, but what is the desire for such doing to your faith? your trust in God? your immortal soul?  Ask yourself that and then ask yourself if the "price" is worth it.

Edited August 26, 2016 by estradling75

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, ldsister said:

I probably wasn't very clear. I don't see any blessings *as a result of paying tithing*. We--all of us, the whole world--enjoy much from God. Part of what makes me wonder is that in my observation, those blessings tend to be given more bountifully to those who do *not* tithe. Promotions go to the boss's drinking buddies, quick recoveries from job losses go the people who left the church years ago, etc. I see the greatest inner peace and health among non-tithe payers, etc. This probably only bothers me because I was always taught the exact opposite. Perhaps if I'd been raised with the acknowledgement that it is a sacrifice without mortal compensation, pure and simple, I would be less confused. 

  You are obeying it faithfully which is amazingly awesome, but you have not figured out what it is for.  The blessing is spiritual knowledge.  The blessing is the aligning of our Will to God's.  The blessing our fulfillment of the commandment to love God and love others as we love ourselves.  That's what makes us Gods.  For what does it benefit man to gain the whole world and lose heaven?

There was a time when I didn't learn this lesson yet too.  I paid tithing faithfully for 2 years after my baptism (I am a convert).  After 2 years of faithful tithing, my husband lost his job.  I continued to tithe on my husband's unemployment check and my income.  Then the company I worked for went into bankruptcy - I was in danger of getting laid off - every Friday was a game of roulette, who gets to go this week.  I became a bit bitter because here I was paying tithing faithfully yet my little family are facing the possibility of personal bankruptcy.  So, I quit paying tithes.  I never did lose my job, my husband finally got another job but the damage was already done.  I have already stopped tithes.  Not too long after that, my husband and I got into marital troubles, and not too long after that we quit going to church all together.  It started with the tithes and because we weren't doing that, we couldn't see what the point is with the WoW, then we couldn't see the point in wearing garments, and it was just downhill from there.  It took us a couple of years before we finally broke down, humbled ourselves, and crawled our way back into church through a process of repentance.

Why do we do anything required of us in our covenants?  What blessings do we really get from wearing garments, WoW, tithes, keeping the Sabbath holy, etc. etc.?  Do we look at our neighbors in their bikinis, slugging a beer at the beach on a Sunday and think - they have all the fun?  It's the same with tithes.

Everytime we walk into the temple and baptize one dead soul we are blessed by our tithes - for we have given our part in Elijah's promise.  Everytime we see a Mormon graduate from BYU having paid only $5K a year we are blessed by our tithes - for we have given our part in the mortal and spiritual education of our youth necessary in building the kingdom of God.  Everytime we walk into our ward building, open a hymnbook, open an RS manual, hear the organ playing in Sacrament meeting we are blessed by our tithes - for we have given our part in the fellowship of the Saints.  Everytime we see a missionary passing out a Book of Mormon to a complete stranger, we are blessed by our tithes - for we have given our part in the gathering of the field to bring them closer to Christ.

So... now, when my husband and I sit down to work our finances, we have this method - we have our income, then we have our tithes, then we have our taxes, then we have our expenses (bills).  When money is tight - the outgoing money are getting bigger than the incoming money - we adjust our expenses or increase our income.  We don't adjust tithes just like we don't adjust taxes.  When money is tight and you want to go on a vacation, have you ever sat down and tried to cut out taxes to pay for that vacation or grumbled about why we have to pay it (okay, I have... many times.  But I still pay taxes anyway)?  Same with tithes.  Tithes is God's.  It is my covenant to God.  It is a stronger covenant than my W-4 that committed me to pay the US government taxes.  I'm not going to renege on my covenant to love my neighbors as I love myself and bring them closer to Christ just so I can go on vacation.

Hope this helps.  I know it is hard.  It was very, very, very, very hard for me.  It still is.

[Guest]

Oh, here's another one! (This is a great exercise for me, so forgive my multiple posts). I can promise you that your marriage is blessed for the way you live. I know, because about a year ago we were the ones totally maxed out on debt and the stress put more strain on our marriage than I ever could have imagined. Since then we were able to take care of that problem, acknowledge where we need to reinforce some places in our marriage, and we are so much better. We're still poor little church mice but without the weight of that debt, and living within our means, our marriage is thriving. Having gotten a taste of the other side, I have to tell you that that is most certainly a blessing.

[NeedleinA]

22 minutes ago, ldsister said:

Yes. Those are blessings, but they don't seem to come from tithing. They seem to come from living in accordance with economic principles. Perhaps that's just pride on my part. Or an overly literal, logical brain. I've witnessed some situations where I analyze it and say, "that's God," and others where I examine it and say, "That's math. Anyone, tithed or not, would have had the same outcome." It seems like our situation always seems to fall into the math category, when I'm hoping for a bit more divine intervention.

Oh well. Perhaps I simply need to care less about whether the kids get piano lessons or school photos. I do think that would help. 

Ultimately, I think your disappointment in tithing appears to be, like you said some kind of $ math problem.
If I pay $5k in tithing in 2014. Then in 2015 I will get a raise and earn more money, simple.

If this was a case of pay out money ONLY to get more money back, then everyone would clamor to pay their tithing, NOT for other blessings but because it was always a monetary win for themselves.  If this was how tithing worked, we would all eagerly pay out of mere self interest/selfishness.

This is not a dollar for 2x dollar transaction with the Lord. This is a dollar for blessing transaction. Our job is to recognize our blessings and be grateful for the ones we have.

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by NeedleinA

[Guest MormonGator]

In fairness to the OP I totally see her point. Sometimes it can be very, very hard to pay tithing. She's asking questions many of us have. 

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

In fairness to the OP I totally see her point. Sometimes it can be very, very hard to pay tithing. She's asking questions many of us have. 

And she is getting answers that many of us have learned from having gone through such questions.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And she is getting answers that many of us have learned from having gone through such questions.

Yup, absolutely true.   

[Vort]

Dear sister, you have been through the temple, so are familiar with the instructions and promises given therein. One important lesson we learn is that we require money sufficient for our needs, and no more. By its very nature, money is of the world. Another term for "first-world problems" is "being overly enamored of the things of the world". Disneyland is fun, and it's great to be able to take the kids there every few years. But it is not important. Your family is highly unlikely to be any happier in the eternities because you took the kids to Disneyland. The opposite might well be the case, in fact; those who often take their children on expensive vacations may well be trying to compensate for some lack at home in an effort to "jump-start" some family intimacy that has not been carefully cultivated by daily family prayer, scripture study, and time together.

Do you want the blessings of God? He does not open the windows of heaven and pour out cash. Consider the following blessings you enjoy from paying tithing:

• If otherwise worthy, you can receive a recommend to enter the holy temple of God.
• You get to participate directly in financing the kingdom of God on the earth, in full fellowship with the Saints.
• Your children see your example. Honestly, this may well be the greatest blessing of tithing.
• You are living that part of the law of sacrifice, and thus slowly building, brick by brick, the spiritual foundation that comes from living that law.

Have you explained your financial situation to your children? Do they know that you are choosing to pay tithing instead of e.g. go to Disneyland? Perhaps they should. Perhaps they ought to be able to see their parents willingly sacrifice fun but unimportant things for the sake of keeping their covenants.

God is blessing you with HIS blessings, which rarely include cash payments. If you open your eyes and your heart to them, you can enjoy them with your family, right now and for the rest of your life.

All the best to you.

[Sunday21]

Dear Sister,

I know it is hard. My tough thing is Sabbath observance. There is always a good reason to work on the Sabbath. Being a Mormon is tough. I feel for you. I hope things get better.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

. Being a Mormon is tough. 

Exactly. It's actually very tough and perhaps some members (no one here, it's a shoe fits kind of statement) need to do a better job of understanding that. It's especially tough on converts.  

[Sunday21]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Exactly. It's actually very tough and perhaps some members (no one here, it's a shoe fits kind of statement) need to do a better job of understanding that. It's especially tough on converts.  

Right on!

[ldsister]

3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

I fully believe the blessings of paying tithing do in fact come in this life. Sure some will/may come later in the next life, but there are tons of blessings here and now for us.
Perhaps the circle of people you are comparing your life too is too limited OR perhaps the fact that you appear to be comparing your life to lives of others around you. I would suggest, stop worrying about what others have or how fast they excel, etc. You seem to be counting "others" blessings rather than your own.

What blessings do you have? Would you trade those blessings for an extra $8k-$10k (random figures) in your pocket?

 

I don't know if your question was rhetorical, but I'll try to answer it seriously. 

From a mortal perspective, I think that I wouldn't lose most of the blessings I have. I believe my family would remain healthy and we'd continue on as we do, only with a lot less stress and a bit more fun. 

It's hard to say what I'd lose from an intellectual/spiritual perspective because I don't see anything in my life that's particularly different from those who don't tithe. Theologically, I'm sure it must be there. I just don't know what it is, so I don't know if I'd be willing to trade it. 

I'm hanging heavily on the hope that all these things become worth it when one dies, so I won't quit paying it. 

[ldsister]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Dear Sister,

I know it is hard. My tough thing is Sabbath observance. There is always a good reason to work on the Sabbath. Being a Mormon is tough. I feel for you. I hope things get better.

Thanks! I don't know that our financial situation will ever improve much, but I hope that *I* can get better at not caring. 

[ldsister]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Do you want the blessings of God? He does not open the windows of heaven and pour out cash. Consider the following blessings you enjoy from paying tithing:

• If otherwise worthy, you can receive a recommend to enter the holy temple of God.
• You get to participate directly in financing the kingdom of God on the earth, in full fellowship with the Saints.
• Your children see your example. Honestly, this may well be the greatest blessing of tithing.
• You are living that part of the law of sacrifice, and thus slowly building, brick by brick, the spiritual foundation that comes from living that law.

Have you explained your financial situation to your children? Do they know that you are choosing to pay tithing instead of e.g. go to Disneyland? Perhaps they should. Perhaps they ought to be able to see their parents willingly sacrifice fun but unimportant things for the sake of keeping their covenants.

God is blessing you with HIS blessings, which rarely include cash payments. If you open your eyes and your heart to them, you can enjoy them with your family, right now and for the rest of your life.

I want those things to feel like enough compensation and to bring me peace and happiness. They don't, but I do wish they did. 

[ldsister]

3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Ultimately, I think your disappointment in tithing appears to be, like you said some kind of $ math problem.
If I pay $5k in tithing in 2014. Then in 2015 I will get a raise and earn more money, simple.

If this was a case of pay out money ONLY to get more money back, then everyone would clamor to pay their tithing, NOT for other blessings but because it was always a monetary win for themselves.  If this was how tithing worked, we would all eagerly pay out of mere self interest/selfishness.

This is not a dollar for 2x dollar transaction with the Lord. This is a dollar for blessing transaction. Our job is to recognize our blessings and be grateful for the ones we have.

 

Yes. I understand that the blessings aren't always (usually? ever?) financial, but I'm trying to see any blessings at all. Peace, happiness, intellect . . . ah, well. Perhaps what matters is that we simply pay and stop caring about anything else. Perhaps I don't have the right to ask what benefit it brings to my life. Perhaps that's the point. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by ldsister

[ldsister]

3 hours ago, Eowyn said:

Oh, here's another one! (This is a great exercise for me, so forgive my multiple posts). I can promise you that your marriage is blessed for the way you live. I know, because about a year ago we were the ones totally maxed out on debt and the stress put more strain on our marriage than I ever could have imagined. Since then we were able to take care of that problem, acknowledge where we need to reinforce some places in our marriage, and we are so much better. We're still poor little church mice but without the weight of that debt, and living within our means, our marriage is thriving. Having gotten a taste of the other side, I have to tell you that that is most certainly a blessing.

Oh, that's definitely true. Being financially responsible is fantastic for a marriage. I'm not sure what role tithing plays in that, since we do experience the strain and sadness that comes to any marriage when there's not enough money for the things that would benefit the children, but budgeting together at least keeps us from thinking we have more money than we do and thus getting into trouble. We may at times feel discouraged and sad, but at least we're on the same page and neither of us is alone in our feelings. 

[ldsister]

Thank you all so much for your comments. I think the answer the answer to my question is that if pain relief or piano were important, it would have been provided for. It wasn't, so it wasn't. Chin up, buck up, (perhaps a bit of suck it up--lol) and move on. 

[Guest]

FWIW, @ldsister, I'm very sorry about your chronic pain. That's a tough way to live.

I wonder if you've looked at any sliding scale clinics, or looked into programs to help pay for prescriptions?

[NeedleinA]

7 minutes ago, ldsister said:

Chin up, buck up, (perhaps a bit of suck it up--lol) and move on. 

Great attitude.

If we ever feel bad for ourselves and our situation, perhaps rather than look at those who have "more/healthier", we can look at those who have "less/sicker". It doesn't hurt to spend a day or two serving others with even less than ourselves to help whip a pity party back into perspective again, I'm speaking from personal experience. For my wife's birthday, at her request, we just went to a severally underfunded area outreach shelter and home for abused women/children to volunteer. We also spent several hours making hygiene kits for the homeless, etc.

You leave with a refreshed sense of what "really" matters... kind of like going to the temple.

Last thought. On my mission, one of the Wards I served in was a wonderful faithful Bishop who took me under his wing. Several of his teeth had fallen out, common in Chile. He wore the same sweater each Sunday to church. He was an awesome man. Right before transfers I was at a different church across the city. There stood a bicycle leaning against the church. We went in and there was a janitor scrubbing toilets. It was of course my Ward's Bishop. For a job, he rode his bike across town cleaning church buildings in the area. I said, "Bishop, I had no idea you were a janitor". He said, I am and I'm grateful for the job I have.

Solid-Solid Brother.

 

[Sunday21]

Being lds gets me down sometimes. I try to imagine who will be the cool kids in the next life, probably not the pampered and entitled. Probably, the bishop described by Needle above. Still is discouraging down here on planet earth sometimes!

[james12]

12 hours ago, ldsister said:

My struggle is that I'm experiencing lots of sacrifice and pain (literally) as a result of paying tithing, and I see no blessings coming from it.  ...It's all been singularly non-divine. Precisely what you'd expect this situation to look like on paper: tight, hard, and sacrificial. ...I will never stop paying tithing, but I'm keenly aware of how much our family sacrifices for it, and sometimes I simply sit and cry with sadness and discouragement because I was raised to believe that it would bring blessings and, IME, it simply does not. 

Isn't there supposed to be more to this whole tithing thing? If so, how do I find it? I've already done the Sunday School answers. I've experienced no peace or divine assistance. People say that the blessings can be non-tangible, but I don't see any there either. Our emotional, marital, and physical lives are no better than average. In fact, they may be worse due the fact that we can't afford things (medical care, personal development activities) that would probably enhance our well-being. And far from my testimony being enhanced, I've become hardened and skeptical about the church's promises. I WANT to feel blessed by tithing, but given the evidence I see, I don't know how. Is there any hope? 

I agree that you should be concerned about sacrificing but not seeing tangible blessings. M. Catherine Thomas made a great statement about gospel living. She said, "Intentional spiritual development is not experienced as sacrifice but as empowerment." (The God Seed). I believe that is true. If we are living the gospel but only experiencing pain and heartache over and over again, than we are somehow approaching the gospel incorrectly. After all this gospel is to bless us here and now, not only after we die.  

Let me think a bit more about this and I'll comment further tomorrow. 

 

[yjacket]

6 hours ago, ldsister said:

Thank you all so much for your comments. I think the answer the answer to my question is that if pain relief or piano were important, it would have been provided for. It wasn't, so it wasn't. Chin up, buck up, (perhaps a bit of suck it up--lol) and move on. 

I actually have a different take on tithing that I don't think has been mentioned here.  Tithing is more than simply hoping and wishing for material benefits in the here and now and the spiritual benefits in the future.

It provides a very real, very tangible benefit that IMO does not get talked about enough-or if it does is IMO mentioned without the right explanation.

Every single organization needs money to run on.  I don't care if you are a Fortune 500 company, the local Republican/Democrat part, a voluntary charity organization, etc.  God certainly doesn't need our money, but the Church does.  The cost to build a single chapel in the US can easily cost over 2 million dollars.  I have access to the real world building project bid proposals the Church puts out due to a side business.  A simple renovation of a restroom can cost 200k, a handicap ramp addition 500k. And this doesn't count all the other things the church provides.  A well-done website will cost millions to build and millions to maintain.  Generating and printing hymn books, purchasing projectors, videos, etc. Turning on the lights. Providing a stipend for Mission Presidents, General Authorities, etc. Plus the untold thousands of other things the Church provides to it's membership.

Where do people think the money comes from for these things?  150 years ago, each local congregation would actually build the chapel themselves. Yet obviously, due to economic circumstances some areas of members are poorer and some areas are richer. Today we pay tithing and my tithing funds might go to my local chapel or they might go to help people in Asia have a worship place to meet.

In every other volunteer organization, people understand the money to operate comes from the people who volunteer!! If you volunteer your time to the local Republican organization, it is expected to pay the yearly membership fee. If you are part of a community with a pool and tennis court, you pay the HOA fee.

It is called paying your dues. Every complex organization has a way of obtaining money to operate-some volunteer organizations ask for donations from the community, others ask for donations from its membership.  If the organization operates by obtaining money from it's membership, it is very commonly understood that those "members" who don't pay their dues aren't really a part of the "community" and are simply along for the ride . . .free-loaders in essence.

Donating financially to a volunteer organization demonstrates more than most anything else where one places that volunteer organization in the priority list.  As they say, put your money where your mouth is.

It is in many ways absolutely shocking to me and maybe simply a sign of our current culture that people have a hard time paying tithing or they expect wealth and riches untold b/c they pay tithing. Yes, sometimes paying tithing will result in immediate spiritual and temporal benefits (a surprise bonus, a pay raise, a gift, etc.), but many times it does not. Sometimes I wonder if those things come about to help the faith of the individual who is paying tithing . . . .

I think too many times we as members in the Church have proscribed to the "Prosperity Gospel", i.e. if I'm righteous I'll be so much better off than everyone else.  Umm, nope, not the case.  One will be better off living righteously than had they not lived righteously, but there is no guarantee that living the gospel will make me better off than everyone else.

Sometimes, doing the right, moral, ethical thing has an extremely high cost. I recently came very close to losing my job for doing the moral, ethical thing.  For being the provider to my family and the massive political costs associated with my actions, it would have been very easy to have simply let something slide. So, I can now curse God and say . . "God, why did this happen? I did the right thing!! Why am I being punished for doing what I know is right?" or I can simply say "God, I did the right thing, this trial is very hard for me, please help me in this trial-please help me find a way out, but regardless I will submit to whatever it is I need to go through".

As far as gross vs. net; I think Vort is a little out of line.  The Church has never stipulated what exactly constitutes a 10% tithe. The scriptures say 10% of your increase and the Church has said that means "income". Personally for me (and I'm not advocating anything, it's just my opinion). I pay on what comes into my bank account,i.e I don't pay on taxes.  I personally consider taxes theft, so I don't pay tithing on money that is violently stolen from me.

Regardless, I would advise a change of perspective.  For the next two months, every time you go to church think that you personally paid for the hymn books, that your tithing is going to pay the electricity for the chapel, for the water, etc.  

For those who can pay tithing and don't whether they realize it or not they are free-loading off the rest.  And the Gospel certainly teaches that free-loading is not cool.

[yjacket]

7 hours ago, ldsister said:

I want those things to feel like enough compensation and to bring me peace and happiness. They don't, but I do wish they did. 

As far as kids go; I'm not saying you have, but you might have bought into the current child-centered culture that permeates everything in modern culture.

Oh you didn't take your kids to disneyworld- you're a horrible parent. Your kids don't have piano lessons-you're a horrible parent.  Your kids don't go to dance, you're a horrible parent.  Your kids don't do soccer, blah,blah, blah-you're a horrible parent. Your kids don't have a smartphone, have hundreds of toys-your a horrible parent. Today's culture is such that if a parent doesn't sacrifice everything and anything for their precious special child-your a horrible parent.  Oh sure, it might not be said that way-but it is implicitly understood.

What a bunch of rubbish. 60 years ago, parents didn't give two flips about this. The child was an appendage to the marriage not the main attraction. Parenting back then was about training not about giving. From ages 3-18, parents understood their primary focus was to train their children to be responsible, hard-working, ethical, contributing members of society-it wasn't about "fun" activities. It was about learning if you want something in life you work for it, you can't get everything you want in life, be respectful of others, etc. etc.

There is an economic principle at work-the less you have of something desired the more valuable it becomes. If you only have 5 toys, you learn to really value those 5 toys, which later in life means that you really learn to value the blessings that you do have in life.

You are actually teaching your children a very valuable lesson that if done right will pay huge dividends in the future. You are teaching your children how to sacrifice for the most important thing in this world-God. If done right, in 20-30 years your children will look back and admire your strength, courage and perseverance.

I'll give you another secret to life-individuals who have a longer term perspective in life will generally do much better than those who don't.  You have seen that with being financially prudent, the same principle applies everywhere else. 

 

[james12]

11 hours ago, james12 said:

I agree that you should be concerned about sacrificing but not seeing tangible blessings. M. Catherine Thomas made a great statement about gospel living. She said, "Intentional spiritual development is not experienced as sacrifice but as empowerment." (The God Seed). I believe that is true. If we are living the gospel but only experiencing pain and heartache over and over again, than we are somehow approaching the gospel incorrectly. After all this gospel is to bless us here and now, not only after we die.  

Let me think a bit more about this and I'll comment further tomorrow. 

 

ldsister, I have thought some more about what you are experiencing. Here are my thoughts.

Moroni gives us valuable insight into how the Lord works. He says, "For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God." (Moroni 10:8). Now, I'm not saying you are evil. You are clearly a dedicated and good person. But in this commandment do you give grudgingly? Do you wish you had kept the 10% (or as you calculate it, 14%)? If this is the case then the Lord is limited in the blessings he can give you because in your heart you have retained the gift. You have given the dollars and cents but kept from giving with real intent.

My suggestion? Forget what you might have done with the money, what you are missing out on and even the exact percentage. This is a hard thing the Lord has required of you, but notwithstanding the fact, give with an open and free heart. As King Benjamin said, "I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received." (Mosiah 4:24-25). When you will willingly give more if you had more then you will free the Lord to bless your life.  

Again, M. Catherine Thomas boils it down so well. She says, "Here's the principle: your focused intention is the key to accessing the power of God. You tell Him what you intend, you show Him that you mean it, and he responds with His power." Therefore do not worry about tommorow for the Lord knows what you need. Instead give freely with an open heart and He will change you. He may not give you more of the worldly things but I guarantee you will see his hand, and you will be overwhelmed with the blessings.