Heroes throughout history vs Obedience

[Guest]

Since I was in the primary, what's been pounded into my head is obedience, obedience, obedience to those in charge and in authority above me. The only problem with that is every great hero I can think of disobeyed obedience and rebelled. I'm talking America against the British, with the Boston Tea Party and the Revolutionary War. That was the Americans rebelling and look how that turned out. They are heroes. Just look at the movies, mainly the Star Wars franchise. You have the empire and then you have the rebel alliance who are what? Rebels. And they are the heroes. They are not obedient to the empire. Most all my favorite video games involve the heroes rebelling and being disobedient to the evil people in charge. So just how important is obedience in our daily lives, when we've seen rebellion throughout history being shown as acts of heroism. I know obviously we have to be obedient to God and Jesus, but what about others?

[Vort]

Obedience to legitimate authority is always appropriate and required. This is true, even when the legitimate authority might be wrong about some issues. But at some point, the legitimate authority's mistakes are such that the authority ceases to be legitimate. At that point, obedience to such illegitimate authority is no longer requisite, or many times even wise.

What happens in Star Wars movies is of no consequence whatsoever in the real world. I would rate Star Wars somewhere below Bugs Bunny in real-world relevance.

[Guest]

Well what if the Donald Trump picks for his cabinet turn out to be disastrous for our country and this country really goes in a downward spiral? Do we still support the President because of that one article of faith about being subject to kings, magistrates, presidents, etc. or do we make a stand? Are we being disobedient to God in wanting our country to be great and free?

Edited December 13, 2016 by Zarahemla

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Zarahemla said:

Well what if the Donald Trump picks for his cabinet turn out to be disastrous for our country and this country really goes in a downward spiral? Do we still support the President because of that one article of faith about being subject to kings, magistrates, presidents, etc. or do we make a stand? Are we being disobedient to God in wanting our country to be great and free?

In the case of the USA, every single American has respect for the office of President (or should have) but is not required to be obedient to the President.  Rather, every American is required to be obedient to the  US Constitution, including the President.

This is different from the Prophet who is the mouthpiece for Christ - so obedience to Christ is obedience to the prophets.

The President is not the mouthpiece of the US Constitution.  Rather, the 3 equal branches of government, only one of which is controlled by the President, work together to follow the tenets of the US Constitution.  So, if you have a problem with the cabinet picks, then call your representatives in Congress to correct it.

So far, though, if you're a Conservative, you have the Super Bowl of cabinet picks in place.  If you're a Progressive, you won't like them except for the trade and infrastructure guys...

Edited December 13, 2016 by anatess2

[Vort]

What you are fundamentally asking is: At what point does legitimate authority lose its legitimacy? I know of no explicit scriptural answer to this question, but I am familiar with a well-known treatise that considers just this question, albeit in a specialized instance and not as a general principle. It is well worth considering, especially noting how carefully it lays out the numerous conditions under which the authority is no longer considered legitimate. It reads as follows:

***********************************

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

• He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
• He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
• He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
• He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
• He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
• He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
• He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
• He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
• He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
• He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.
• He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
• He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.
• He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
• For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
• For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
• For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
• For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
• For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:
• For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
• For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies
• For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
• For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
• He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
• He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
• He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
• He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
• He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

— John Hancock

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott, William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark, Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross, Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean, Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn, Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

[Guest]

I appreciate Vort's posting the Declaration here.  I was thinking the same thing when I read the OP.

BTW some of the greatest heroes that we know were not heroes because they rebelled, but were being rebelled against:  Nephi.  Mosiah I, Ammon II, Moroni & Moroni, Helaman, Alma II, Mormon.  Abinadi and Alma the elder both rebelled, not against God, but against a tyrant king.

There is a difference between government (which comprises all the examples given in the OP) vs religion (which was where obedience was "pounded into Zarahemla's head").  Governments' just powers are derived from the consent of the governed.  True religion comes from the Almighty.  We can rebel against government gone awry and tyrants per the conditions outlined in the Declaration:

Quote

when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

To rebel against God is never advisable.  To try to counsel the Lord is never advisable.  So, as long as you have a testimony that this is the True Church and that the current Prophet is a true prophet, then rebelling would be to rebel against God.

If you belong to another church that doesn't believe in Divine Investiture of Authority then you just have a man telling you some personal interpretations from the Bible.  Such rebellion is against man, not God.

In our faith, we believe that a man must be called of God by Prophecy and by the laying on of hands.  As long as you believe this is the True Church and that the current Prophet is the chosen prophet of the time, then we need to obey.  But such obedience is not necessarily absolute.  Keep in mind that prudence, indeed, will dictate that a religion long observed should not be abandoned for light and transient causes.  

First of all, we usually find that when we have a disagreement with our church leaders, things just end up working themselves out in one way or another.  Second, we often find that we were the ones who were wrong after all.  Look at gay marriage.  I think this is a perfect example of when NOT to rebel.

1) Homosexual acts have ALWAYS been condemned of the Lord without exception throughout all of history.  So, why is it any surprise to anyone that the Church has taken the stance it has?  Nothing in the Church has changed on this matter.  Only society has changed to be more permissive.

2) This position is not just from one man.  It is written in scriptures multiple times.  It is not any new pronouncement.

We begin to see that it is not a rebellion against a "man" or "the Church".  They are rebelling against God.  Even if there were no Prophet and no Church, the commandment is still there.  They simply try to justify it by saying they disagree with "the Church", not God.

In all our doings, we shall Move forward with a firm reliance on the instruction of Divine Providence, knowing that our souls are worth more even than our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Guest

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

Since I was in the primary, what's been pounded into my head is obedience, obedience, obedience to those in charge and in authority above me. The only problem with that is every great hero I can think of disobeyed obedience and rebelled. I'm talking America against the British, with the Boston Tea Party and the Revolutionary War. That was the Americans rebelling and look how that turned out. They are heroes. Just look at the movies, mainly the Star Wars franchise. You have the empire and then you have the rebel alliance who are what? Rebels. And they are the heroes. They are not obedient to the empire. Most all my favorite video games involve the heroes rebelling and being disobedient to the evil people in charge. So just how important is obedience in our daily lives, when we've seen rebellion throughout history being shown as acts of heroism. I know obviously we have to be obedient to God and Jesus, but what about others?

I think D&C 134 might offer some insight into what constitutes the loss of legitimacy in government. I picked out a few:

Wholesale abuse of the citizens with impunity with regards to “the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life” or abusing the equity and justice of the rule of law, should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will of the sovereign. Sedition and rebellion are warranted only when refused protection “in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments.”

I think as long as we have a Constitution, we need to uphold it and work within its framework to change our condition (D&C 98:5-6).

[Larry Cotrell]

Romans 13:1-7

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

Obedience is a wonderful thing but you also need to remember that God gave you reason, judgement and hopefully common sense. Trust in those and you'll be fine. 

[NeuroTypical]

11 hours ago, Zarahemla said:

So just how important is obedience in our daily lives, when we've seen rebellion throughout history being shown as acts of heroism.

I like this training video.  Depending on what the two sides are, I can see myself on either side.    Am I in the US, or Iran?   What insignia are on the uniforms?  What are the motives of the mob?

When I kneel down at the feet of my Master and need to explain my choices and which side I joined, what will be the reaction?

 

 

[mirkwood]

Maybe you could show me where Captain Moroni was disobedient.

[Traveler]

 

Individuality is such an over hyped thing in our culture – few understand very well even the concept of accomplishing anything in coordination with anyone else.  I personally think this is one of the great problems with marriage.   I have spent many years whitewater rafting.  One would think getting 10 people to paddle a raft in unison would be a simple task.  Not in our society. 

The method is simple.  The raft caption calls out “stroke” and every one puts their paddle in the water and works together.  The training is that each person watches the person in front of them and avoids crossing their paddle with the one in front of them.  All it takes is one person in the row that is out of unison and the raft will not be controlled.  That one person out of unison puts the entire raft at risk – even in class 3 hydraulics.

Many times I have told those I am working with that it is better for a raft to work together in perfect unison with a raft caption making mistakes than it is for any one person on the raft to be doing the right thing all by themselves.  This is such a critical notion that one person doing the right thing by themselves rather than working together with mistakes; can cause serious harm and even death.

I believe that white water rafting is a microcosm for life.  Often it is better to have unity than it is for one person to be right all by themselves.   There is a time a place to call out the unity when it is headed for a bad situation.  But there is also a critical point when it is better to just work through a mistake in harmony and unison.  In my mind a hero is someone that know that critical point and does their job – often unnoticed.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Individuality is such an over hyped thing in our culture

Funny you say that because I think no one talks about individuality anymore and it's tragically dying in our culture. It's the most undervalued and under appreciated value in our culture today. Too many people are just mindless conformists who are simply unable to think for themselves. 

[mirkwood]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Funny you say that because I think no one talks about individuality anymore and it's tragically dying in our culture. It's the most undervalued and under appreciated value in our culture today. Too many people are just mindless conformists who are simply unable to think for themselves. 

I like The Ramones too. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, mirkwood said:

I like The Ramones too. 

lol. That's awesome. Johnny was a staunch conservative republican by the way.  

[Vort]

30 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I believe that white water rafting is a microcosm for life.

I spent my teenage years watching a Church movie to that effect at every MIA activity.

[mirkwood]

I'm a clone.  I know it and I'm fine.

[Traveler]

 

Just wondering what callings some have in wards that has given so many the idea that human nature is just to do what is good and right without thinking beyond what is preached.  You all must have at least 90% of your members attending Church, paying tithing and holding temple recommends. 

And in your communities there are no drugs, no crime and no need for police.  There is not much need for layers because everybody just gets along; there are no traffic accidents and not much need for doctors because no one is overweight and everybody just conforms to eating healthy and hardy exercise. 

Where is this place of mindless conformity that you all live?

Thanks for the responses - I so wanted to make this response post. 

 

The Traveler

Edited December 14, 2016 by Traveler