Do other religions have some bit of truth to them?

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

1. Of course people can repent, both here and in the spirit world, and yet repent insufficiently to enjoy a resurrection of the just and true or the just, and only sufficiently for a resurrection of the unjust. Those of perdition do not repent.

2. Jesus came into the world to cleanse it from all unrighteousness, but that doesn’t mean everyone accepts that, as indicated in verse 52 (“that they might be cleansed…”).

3. People who do not join the presence of God, or the fullness, are cast off to lesser kingdoms to receive lesser ministrations.

4. Having no law is different than dying without the law due to choice and/or not receiving the testimony of Jesus (the spirit prophecy and whoever prophesies by it).

5. These verses do address being cleansed and receiving salvation according to their works as lived in the spirit.

6. D&C 29 teaches what I have been saying since each order of resurrection follows that initial sounding of Michael’s trump. D&C 76 fills in the details.

7. But a resurrected being, like man and God, are spirits, and when ministering to a lesser kingdom, are ministering spirits.

8. Paul is clearly telling them to repent of identifying themselves in terms of religion by or in the name of any human authority. His is not addressing those he calls his fellow saints, but those he is telling are called to be saints.

9. Speaking of two groups does not deny the existence of the third. But my other, equally salient point was that the designation of “Last of all…” refers to those of the last resurrection, or the telestial heirs.

 10. Sons of perdition are certainly unrepentant but more importantly, they are worse than unrepentant, which is why Christ saves all the rest in a kingdom of some glory.

The main returning argument seems to be if it is possible to remain unrepentant and without saving ordinances and still inherit a place in heaven. It seems as if the argument centers around what degree of cleanliness a person achieves vs. whether they cabe saved at all unless they are completely cleansed.

My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment.  

It appears your position is something different. Is this assumption correct?

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I take issue with the statement that the LDS church is the _only_ church with the _full_ truth. 

I can yield to the only church with the full authority to perform ordinances with God's authority, but I suspect we will eventually find that other churches have far more truth than we give them credit for, and that the LDS church has far more flaws than we recognize.

I agree with this. As for proper authority, I do believe we have an overwhelming monopoly. As for the doctrine our church centers around and how we interpret it, we still have a lot of work to go towards finding the whole truth. We have changed a lot since Joseph Smiths Nauvoo period. In many ways, our church today in the way we worship and our particular beliefs and the church in Josephs day were almost two different churches. It shows to me that just like other churches, we stumble around somewhat in coming to the truth on matters.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

The main returning argument seems to be if it is possible to remain unrepentant and without saving ordinances and still inherit a place in heaven. It seems as if the argument centers around what degree of cleanliness a person achieves vs. whether they cabe saved at all unless they are completely cleansed.

My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment.  

It appears your position is something different. Is this assumption correct?

Rob, I still don't exactly get what kind of paradigm you're advancing; but let me try to summarize my understanding of it (which includes some interpolations/questions of my own) and you can tell me if I'm misrepresenting you:

• The kingdoms of glory as described in D&C 76 do not represent final states.  Rather, they represent stages of progression. 
• This earth in its current state IS the Telestial Kingdom.  Those who abide the applicable divine laws will progress on to a Terrestrial state.  Those who don't, go to a state of eternal and irredeemable damnation.
• For those who get into the Terrestrial Kingdom--again, it's not an eternal state; it's just a stage of existence.  Those who succeed will progress to a Celestial state.  Those who don't . . . I'm kind of fuzzy on this.  Is it your position that everyone who makes it to a Terrestrial existence will eventually proceed to a Celestial?  Or is it possible to "flame out" of Terrestrial living; and if so, what happens to you then?

Responding to some of your more immediate points above--I don't think most Mormons would say that you can get into the Telestial Kingdom while being "unrepentant".  It is not a kingdom of perpetual scofflaws.  D&C 76:109-110 describes the Telestial as acknowledging Jesus' lordship, which I think entails repentance.  Neither the Gospel Essentials manual nor this year's D&C Manual say that the Telestial never repent; those manuals merely state that repentance does not occur in the spirit world (i.e., prior to the final judgment).  Which jibes well with the scripture that says the Telestial confess His lordship at the time of the judgment itself.   

Regarding your statement that "a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment"--it may sound a bit pedantic, but it's probably worth noting that we are saved by Jesus Christ's intercession and not by our own obedience (yes, obedience is a precondition; but it's not the saving mechanism).  D&C 76:105-107 speaks of the Telestial as suffering eternal fire until a future time when Christ puts *all* enemies under His feet; the inference being that the Telestial will then be spared from additional suffering (which would explain why their glory is described in verse 89 as "surpass[ing] all understanding").  So the Telestial are not saved through their own obedience during their mortal probations.  Nor are they saved through their own post-mortal sufferings:  If mankind could, through their own suffering, earn an eternal glory that "surpasses all understanding", then they would have no reason to bow before a Jesus who had given them nothing but what was rightfully theirs.

No; I think ultimately we are spared from hell when Jesus, seeing that the discipline has converted us into disciples, steps in and says "It is enough!".  The difference in rewards between celestial, terrestrial and telestial have less to do with what we "deserve" or how many "spots" we retain after our purported cleansing, than the kinds of work throughout eternity that our various intelligences (Abraham 3:18-19) have shown themselves fit to undertake.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Rob, I still don't exactly get what kind of paradigm you're advancing; but let me try to summarize my understanding of it (which includes some interpolations/questions of my own) and you can tell me if I'm misrepresenting you:

• The kingdoms of glory as described in D&C 76 do not represent final states.  Rather, they represent stages of progression. 
• This earth in its current state IS the Telestial Kingdom.  Those who abide the applicable divine laws will progress on to a Terrestrial state.  Those who don't, go to a state of eternal and irredeemable damnation.
• For those who get into the Terrestrial Kingdom--again, it's not an eternal state; it's just a stage of existence.  Those who succeed will progress to a Celestial state.  Those who don't . . . I'm kind of fuzzy on this.  Is it your position that everyone who makes it to a Terrestrial existence will eventually proceed to a Celestial?  Or is it possible to "flame out" of Terrestrial living; and if so, what happens to you then?

Responding to some of your more immediate points above--I don't think most Mormons would say that you can get into the Telestial Kingdom while being "unrepentant".  It is not a kingdom of perpetual scofflaws.  D&C 76:109-110 describes the Telestial as acknowledging Jesus' lordship, which I think entails repentance.  Neither the Gospel Essentials manual nor this year's D&C Manual say that the Telestial never repent; they merely state that repentance does not occur in the spirit world.  The spirit world, of course, ends at the final judgment; and the aforementioned attitudinal shift of the Telestial at the time of the final judgment shows that they do not remain in a state of rebellion forever.  

Regarding your statement that "a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment"--it may sound a bit pedantic, but it's probably worth noting that we are saved by Jesus Christ's intercession and not by our own obedience (yes, obedience is a precondition; but it's not the saving mechanism).  D&C 76:105-107 speaks of the Telestial as suffering eternal fire until a future time when Christ puts *all* enemies under His feet; the inference being that the Telestial will then be spared from additional suffering (which would explain why their glory is described in verse 89 as "surpass[ing] all understanding").  So the Telestial are not saved through their own obedience.  Nor are they saved through their own sufferings:  If mankind could, through their own suffering, earn an eternal glory that "surpasses all understanding", then they would have no reason to bow before a Jesus who had given them nothing but what was rightfully theirs.

No; I think ultimately we are spared from hell when Jesus, seeing that the discipline has converted us into disciples, steps in and says "It is enough!".  The difference in rewards between celestial, terrestrial and telestial have less to do with what we "deserve", than the kinds of work in the hereafter that our various intelligences (Abraham 3:18-19) have shown themselves fit to undertake.

My view of section 76 is that Joseph Smith was wondering about there must be various places in heaven and was thus shown a vision. It is my belief that what was shown to him in vision was done so to help him understand how men can go from waging sinners to humble saints. It is hard for man to comprehend the reality of the requirements and end result of salvation from hell. Was the vision shown to Josrph Smith? Yes. Was the vision properly understood? No, it wasnt. A very careful reading shows this fact. The vision was or is supposed to show how in the end there will be a resurrection of the righteous to inherit celestial glory on the one hand and on the other a resurrection of the wicked who are sons of perdition who die the second death. 

The endowment which was revealed much later helps us better interpret the vision found in section 76. The endowment, according to official LDS teachings,  states - "The temple ordinances encompass the whole plan of salvation, as taught from time to time by the leaders of the Church, and elucidate matters difficult of understanding. There is no warping or twisting in fitting the temple teachings into the great scheme of salvation." (Preparing to enter the Holy Temple).

But, where does the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms fit in with the temple? In the endowment it is explained that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are in reality our own earth at different stages of progression before it is quickened to celestial glory. With this definition, in reading section 76, it thus makes proper sense that Joseph was not shown three separate worlds after resurrection but rather the same earth at different points in its progression. He just never made that connection.

Let me ask you this- if the temple encompasses the whole plan of salvation then it should explain all three kingdoms shouldnt it? And yet it very much does, its just not what we teach outsude the temple.

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

In the endowment it is explained that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are in reality our own earth at different stages of progression before it is quickened to celestial glory.

This is simply not true. It is a particular (and idiosyncratic) interpretation of the endowment presentation.

[Rob Osborn]

58 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is simply not true. It is a particular (and idiosyncratic) interpretation of the endowment presentation.

How so? It specifically states that the earth we now live on- "the lone and dreary world" is the telestial kingdom. We then are given instructions prior to entering the terrestrial kingdom where we then receive instructions prior to entering the celestial kingdom. 

[Just_A_Guy]

@Rob Osborn that's definitely an interesting way of looking at Section 76, which I will have to chew on.  One caveat about your use of Preparing to Enter quote in question originates with John A. Widtsoe who elsewhere embraced a quite conventional interpretation of Section 76. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

@Rob Osborn that's definitely an interesting way of looking at Section 76, which I will have to chew on.  One caveat about your use of Preparing to Enter quote in question originates with John A. Widtsoe who elsewhere embraced a quite conventional interpretation of Section 76. 

I should also mention that Joseph Smith mentioned that "Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob’s ladder— the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter."

The first rung according to the dream is the earth right now.

[MarginOfError]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with this. As for proper authority, I do believe we have an overwhelming monopoly. As for the doctrine our church centers around and how we interpret it, we still have a lot of work to go towards finding the whole truth. We have changed a lot since Joseph Smiths Nauvoo period. In many ways, our church today in the way we worship and our particular beliefs and the church in Josephs day were almost two different churches. It shows to me that just like other churches, we stumble around somewhat in coming to the truth on matters.

While it's nice to have a similarly minded statement, I feel compelled to point out that one of the primary origins of Mormon miscomprehensions is over analyzing _everything_ and trying to mine it for every nugget of truth. Or otherwise trying to qualify _every_ inconsistency. 

Religion is, at its core, a subjective exercise.  We would do well to recognize that any subjective exercise is going to fall short of a completely closed, logically consistent system. The best religionists I've known have accepted that and moved on. 

Writing exposes that go to great length to make religion a closed system usually makes the matter worse.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The main returning argument seems to be if it is possible to remain unrepentant and without saving ordinances and still inherit a place in heaven. It seems as if the argument centers around what degree of cleanliness a person achieves vs. whether they cabe saved at all unless they are completely cleansed.

My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment.  

It appears your position is something different. Is this assumption correct?

I’m not sure I understand your position enough to comment. All you’ve posited and defended are what you consider to be ten internal contradictions in D&C 76 that I don’t see supported by the verses you’ve used, and I’m not sure we’re attaching the same meaning to the same words.

But for the sake of conversation, I believe a person is saved from physical and spiritual death through the atonement to the degree he is obedient to the spirit and the law of the fullness of the Gospel. The degree of physical salvation is reflected in the natural body he receives upon resurrection according to the glory by which his natural body is quickened. The degree of spiritual salvation is reflected in the kingdom he receives according to the measure of ministration, in other words, the presence of the Holy Spirit, Christ alone, or both Christ and the Father. An exalted person is more physically and spiritually alive than a telestial person because he does more, and with greater joy, fulfilling the Abrahamic promise with the continuations of the seeds.

Are you suggesting that the vision in D&C 76 shows that the telestial world is mortality, that the terrestrial world is a progressive, post-resurrection stage to the eventual, virtually inevitable entry into the celestial kingdom, that the celestial kingdom is heaven, and that perdition is eternal hell? If so, how does this view help better carry out God’s work and glory and “work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory,” where eternal (endless, or God’s) hell must have an end?

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I’m not sure I understand your position enough to comment. All you’ve posited and defended are what you consider to be ten internal contradictions in D&C 76 that I don’t see supported by the verses you’ve used, and I’m not sure we’re attaching the same meaning to the same words.

 

But for the sake of conversation, I believe a person is saved from physical and spiritual death through the atonement to the degree he is obedient to the spirit and the law of the fullness of the Gospel. The degree of physical salvation is reflected in the natural body he receives upon resurrection according to the glory by which his natural body is quickened. The degree of spiritual salvation is reflected in the kingdom he receives according to the measure of ministration, in other words, the presence of the Holy Spirit, Christ alone, or both Christ and the Father. An exalted person is more physically and spiritually alive than a telestial person because he does more, and with greater joy, fulfilling the Abrahamic promise with the continuations of the seeds.

 

Are you suggesting that the vision in D&C 76 shows that the telestial world is mortality, that the terrestrial world is a progressive, post-resurrection stage to the eventual, virtually inevitable entry into the celestial kingdom, that the celestial kingdom is heaven, and that perdition is eternal hell? If so, how does this view help better carry out God’s work and glory and “work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory,” where eternal (endless, or God’s) hell must have an end?

 

I am suggesting that section 76 is about being saved to celestial glory or being cast into eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels.

This shows the straightness of the path that leads to the one and only salvation. Our current doctrine teaches it is possible to never accept the gospel and after suffering for ones own sins they can be redeemed from hell. Everything is wrong with that philisophy. Here is the exact teaching-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, ch. 41)

 

This is a false teaching.

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am suggesting that section 76 is about being saved to celestial glory or being cast into eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels.

This shows the straightness of the path that leads to the one and only salvation. Our current doctrine teaches it is possible to never accept the gospel and after suffering for ones own sins they can be redeemed from hell. Everything is wrong with that philisophy. Here is the exact teaching-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, ch. 41)

This is a false teaching.

You missed something, so I helped you out.

I just love it when people decide they're smarter than the prophets.

[Rob Osborn]

Once we correctly understand that all must be born again, through baptism becoming His sons and daughters, we will then come to realize that the dichotomy of heaven/ hell as taught by the Book of Mormon, NT, PoGp, and D&C is spot on.

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

You missed something, so I helped you out.

I just love it when people decide they're smarter than the prophets.

It says specifically that they have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ and that they do not repent. How can one be saved through the atonement if they refuse to repent? Again this just shows the flaw of the teaching.

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

While it's nice to have a similarly minded statement, I feel compelled to point out that one of the primary origins of Mormon miscomprehensions is over analyzing _everything_ and trying to mine it for every nugget of truth. Or otherwise trying to qualify _every_ inconsistency. 

Religion is, at its core, a subjective exercise.  We would do well to recognize that any subjective exercise is going to fall short of a completely closed, logically consistent system. The best religionists I've known have accepted that and moved on. 

Writing exposes that go to great length to make religion a closed system usually makes the matter worse.

I think in this particular discussion, an easy trap to fall into is assuming that the scriptures (and even official church publications) were laid down with the precision of a legal code--that words are used in consistent ways throughout, that any rule statement must immediately be followed by a list of every possible exception to that rule, that they build on a universally-interpreted set of symbols and metaphors, and that literary devices like hyperbole are entirely absent.

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am suggesting that section 76 is about being saved to celestial glory or being cast into eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels.

This shows the straightness of the path that leads to the one and only salvation. Our current doctrine teaches it is possible to never accept the gospel and after suffering for ones own sins they can be redeemed from hell. Everything is wrong with that philisophy. Here is the exact teaching-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, ch. 41)

 

This is a false teaching.

I agree with you that a number of church manuals foster the impression that the telestial are ultimately saved by their own suffering and (by implication) that Jesus' atonement does not reach them.  I further agree that such an impression is both unfortunate and theologically incorrect.

What I would disagree with, is the notion that orthodox Mormonism says that the Telestial are unchanged by their sufferings and that they emerge from Hell and enter into their salvation as impenitent and rebellious as ever they were.  I don't think such a notion is part of Mormonism at all.

To clarify your overall paradigm, though--it sounds like you are saying that the Telestial/Terrestrial are states of *mortal* existence, that the Celestial is the natural ending state of those who engaged the process in mortality, and that those who fail to engage with that process in mortality will wind up in perdition.  Is that accurate?

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think in this particular discussion, an easy trap to fall into is assuming that the scriptures (and even official church publications) were laid down with the precision of a legal code--that words are used in consistent ways throughout, that any rule statement must immediately be followed by a list of every possible exception to that rule, that they build on a universally-interpreted set of symbols and metaphors, and that literary devices like hyperbole are entirely absent.

I agree with you that a number of church manuals foster the impression that the telestial are ultimately saved by their own suffering and (by implication) that Jesus' atonement does not reach them.  I further agree that such an impression is both unfortunate and theologically incorrect.

What I would disagree with, is the notion that orthodox Mormonism says that the Telestial are unchanged by their sufferings and that they emerge from Hell and enter into their salvation as impenitent and rebellious as ever they were.  I don't think such a notion is part of Mormonism at all.

To clarify your overall paradigm, though--it sounds like you are saying that the Telestial/Terrestrial are states of *mortal* existence, that the Celestial is the natural ending state of those who engaged the process in mortality, and that those who fail to engage with that process in mortality will wind up in perdition.  Is that accurate?

Yes that is accurate. And, the scriptures support this position. For instance, we know that the earth after the millennium will become the celestial kingdom. In Revelations it speaks of the saved who dwell there while all the rest are in hell in the second death.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yes that is accurate. And, the scriptures support this position. For instance, we know that the earth after the millennium will become the celestial kingdom. In Revelations it speaks of the saved who dwell there while all the rest are in hell in the second death.

So, under this paradigm, 1) where does proxy temple work/spirit world repentance come in? and 2) is it possible/expected to attain a celestial state while yet in mortality?

[zil]

14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

precision of a legal code

(I've read some of that code, and written another kind of code myself, and "precise" is not the word I would use for legal code.  Just sayin'.  But I agree with your point. )

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

So, under this paradigm, 1) where does proxy temple work/spirit world repentance come in? and 2) is it possible/expected to attain a celestial state while yet in mortality?

Everyone must repent both here and in the spirit world. Proxy work is done for everyone so that the books on earth agree with the books in heaven.

No one attains to the celestial state from mortality. Even the temple shows that we do not go straight from the telestial room to the celestial room. We must go through the terrestrial room to enter the celestial. Interpreted, we go from mortality in the telestial world to being quickened to the terrestrial world (earth during millennium) to become perfected, or "spotless" during the 1000 years. Then are we qualified to enter into celestial glory.

[estradling75]

23 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What I would disagree with, is the notion that orthodox Mormonism says that the Telestial are unchanged by their sufferings and that they emerge from Hell and enter into their salvation as impenitent and rebellious as ever they were.  I don't think such a notion is part of Mormonism at all.

To reinforce this point...  Recall the conversion story of Alma the younger.  He and the Sons of Mosiah were visited by an Angel and he fell to the earth and was unresponsive for days.  When he came around he was a changed person.  He later describes being in "Hell" by any reasonable definition of the term.  His only way out was to call upon Christ for redemption.  There is no reason to think that those who are redeemed from Hell and make the Telestial Kingdom do so by some different kind of method or mechanism or have no real change personality/behavior because of their experience.  In fact In Alma the Younger's example being redeemed from Hell is a life altering experience, which we have every reason to believe is the norm.

   

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am suggesting that section 76 is about being saved to celestial glory or being cast into eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels.

I may not be following your rationale. Do you have an independent publication (link if possible) detailing the doctrine you are trying to explain, and would you provide it?

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

This shows the straightness of the path that leads to the one and only salvation. Our current doctrine teaches it is possible to never accept the gospel and after suffering for ones own sins they can be redeemed from hell. Everything is wrong with that philisophy. Here is the exact teaching-

"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, ch. 41)

This is a false teaching.

I don’t see how anyone rejecting the gospel in the spirit world would not suffer in some way. Do you have a scriptural reference that teaches that those who in the end reject the gospel even in the spirit world obtain joy in the presence of God?

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Once we correctly understand that all must be born again, through baptism becoming His sons and daughters, we will then come to realize that the dichotomy of heaven/ hell as taught by the Book of Mormon, NT, PoGp, and D&C is spot on.

Teaching basic gospel principles in terms of two extremes does prove that only those two extremes exist.

 

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Everyone must repent both here and in the spirit world. Proxy work is done for everyone so that the books on earth agree with the books in heaven.

No one attains to the celestial state from mortality. Even the temple shows that we do not go straight from the telestial room to the celestial room. We must go through the terrestrial room to enter the celestial. Interpreted, we go from mortality in the telestial world to being quickened to the terrestrial world (earth during millennium) to become perfected, or "spotless" during the 1000 years. Then are we qualified to enter into celestial glory.

OK, for the sake of trying to illustrate your paradigm, I've come up with the following.  Let me know if it accurately represents your position:

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I take issue with the statement that the LDS church is the _only_ church with the _full_ truth. 

I can yield to the only church with the full authority to perform ordinances with God's authority, but I suspect we will eventually find that other churches have far more truth than we give them credit for, and that the LDS church has far more flaws than we recognize.

 

There are two basic truths that the world does not quite know how to deal with – First:  That there is one true and living G-d.  Second: That there is one true and living church.  (Church being synonymous with Kingdom of G-d, way or path of truth and light.)

For every reason that there is one true and living G-d the same reasoning applies to one true and living church.

Being a member of a church or citizen of a kingdom of itself does not constitute loyalty to the laws and principles by which it is established.

 

The Traveler

[NightSG]

I'm just hoping we'll find out that Bill and Ted were closer to the exact Truth than any of the churches.

Or maybe George Burns.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

OK, for the sake of trying to illustrate your paradigm, I've come up with the following.  Let me know if it accurately represents your position:

 

Thats about right