An Investigator Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Personally I love the idea, The UK is a very expensive place to live and this will give people who work but earn minimum wage etc opportunities to further their education or take time out to look after family etc.. Studies have shown that small scale investment like this really increases the skill Base of a country and saves money long term as they have less people needing state lead care etc. I know if I was paid it I could afford to stay home with my kids which isn't an option at the minute as my husband earns too much to have any government help but not enough to cover our essential bills. Edited to say.. The welfare state in the UK is quite comprehensive and we get taxed quite heavily though so a system like this, to me seems fairer then the one we have currently. Edited January 11, 2017 by An Investigator Sunday21 and Backroads 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 @An Investigator Yes, situation in Canada is similar in that we are also taxed heavily. Many people think that guaranteed income would be cheaper. An Investigator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 I have seen literature suggesting that it would be far cheaper to just give welfare recipients a cash payout, than what it currently costs to administer AFDC, WIC, and all the other government assistance programs. So a "minimal income" sort of makes financial sense IF it is done in lieu of existing welfare programs and IF we are willing to let those who squander their cash assistance live with the consequences of being well and truly destitute without further prospects for government bailouts. But I don't think Americans have that kind of backbone (or heartlessness, if you prefer) mordorbund and zil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) I wonder how guaranteed income would play out? It is an interesting idea. The program raises a lot of issues. What is the role of government? how would this affect immigration? Edited January 11, 2017 by Sunday21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Sunday21 said: If you were guaranteed a very modest income not to work, would you quit work? i would not. I would choose to work. The issue is not whether you would choose to work or not work. Yes, most everybody has a desire to work. The issue is WHAT you choose to work on. A society does not function just by people choosing whatever they want to work on. Rather, a society functions by people doing the work that is needed by society. Yes, most everybody would choose to work. Now, how many people will choose to work collecting garbage? This is the paradigm of a socialist society - the government assigns the work. The Canadian basic income paradigm is not that. Mixing socialism with capitalism does nothing but move money from the productive to the non-productive. I choose the word productive instead of work for a reason. Working on cutting grass is fine and good but is not productive if there is no need to cut grass. Edited January 11, 2017 by anatess2 askandanswer, Blackmarch and yjacket 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 @anatess2 Yes I see your point. If you do not need to work to survive, who would choose to pick up garbage? I think though that both Canada and the US are a mixture of government intervention and free market. In both societies the government provides some services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 32 minutes ago, Sunday21 said: @anatess2 Yes I see your point. If you do not need to work to survive, who would choose to pick up garbage? I think though that both Canada and the US are a mixture of government intervention and free market. In both societies the government provides some services. I have to smile at this sentence. The government is not some amorphous entity somewhere up there. The government IS the people. So yes, the government provides some services by hiring a bunch of people to perform the service... a lot of whom would rather do something else than work at their government jobs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Heard recently from a former relief society president- "Theres nòthing like trying to take down a bishops food order in a home when the big HD flatscreen TV is blaring some random kids show from the Directv sattelite". Im personally against any equal pay system of welfare. The fix- work harder, fix it yourself. Edited January 11, 2017 by Rob Osborn zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: Heard recently from a former relief society president- "Theres nòthing like trying to take down a bishops food order in a home when the big HD flatscreen TV is blaring some random kids show from the Directv sattelite". You forgot to mention the Ferrari out front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 17 hours ago, Sunday21 said: You know Swedes work quite hard. They have a strong work ethic. I have had Swedish exchange students and they are keen on their careers. I also know quite a few married women who are married to successful men and these women work, they work hard too! Swedes work quite hard, yes. It is a cultural thing from their mainly Protestant upbringing. They're quite a homogeneous society. But even then, their Democratic Socialist experiment failed them. The Swedes have been trying to fix this for the past 10 years so much so that they almost - as in by a smidgen! - succeeded in throwing out their EU-friendly government last year. Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Investigator Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 16 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said: I have seen literature suggesting that it would be far cheaper to just give welfare recipients a cash payout, than what it currently costs to administer AFDC, WIC, and all the other government assistance programs. So a "minimal income" sort of makes financial sense IF it is done in lieu of existing welfare programs and IF we are willing to let those who squander their cash assistance live with the consequences of being well and truly destitute without further prospects for government bailouts. But I don't think Americans have that kind of backbone (or heartlessness, if you prefer) I'm sorry but I really dislike this comment as it's making the assumption that someone is poor because they are unable to get their lives in order. This might be true for a small micro section of society but lots of families with means are disfunctional too. A few years ago they did a social experiment in the UK where they gave so many families all of their benefits for the year. Yes, they made mistakes, for some it was the biggest amount of money they had, had in their lives but at the end of the experience some had started their own businesses, one was at university and the others had work. It gave them options rather then living day to day and their self respect back. Sunday21 and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, An Investigator said: I'm sorry but I really dislike this comment as it's making the assumption that someone is poor because they are unable to get their lives in order. This might be true for a small micro section of society but lots of families with means are disfunctional too. A few years ago they did a social experiment in the UK where they gave so many families all of their benefits for the year. Yes, they made mistakes, for some it was the biggest amount of money they had, had in their lives but at the end of the experience some had started their own businesses, one was at university and the others had work. It gave them options rather then living day to day and their self respect back. I don't deign to speak for JAG as he is quite capable of defending himself but I would just like to point out that nothing in JAG's post indicated that ALL poor people are unable to get their lives in order. I just read it again. Twice. And I still don't see where you got that conclusion from. Rather, what I read is that JAG stated that there are those who squander their resources and end up poor. He didn't say that those who are poor squandered their resources. Big ginormous difference between those two sentences. In light of that, my experience in the Philippines point to one plain truth. It takes a certain skill/knowledge/experience to stay out of poverty. Giving cash to poor people who has no skill/knowledge/experience to stay out of poverty would only give them a party season then back to poverty. Therefore, the best way to get a person out of poverty is to give him skill/knowledge/opportunities for experience needed to stay out of poverty instead of giving him cash. This also applies to those who have skill/knowledge/experience who, by unfortunate circumstances, end up in poverty. Give a guy cash and he'll eat for a day. Give a guy a job and he'll eat for a long time. Edited January 12, 2017 by anatess2 Just_A_Guy, zil and Blackmarch 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 To reinforce the Point made by Anatess... There is worlds of difference between someone that gets knocked down and needs an hand getting up (or simply needs help getting started). And someone that chooses to stay down. Very few people have any issue with first and most of the church programs are geared to exactly that. Many government programs (including this government guaranteed income that we are talking about) are geared to the latter and in many cases encourage the latter. Now is it possible that someone could take this "guaranteed income" and use it to pull themselves up? Absolutely in fact that would be the ideal... But reality tells us that JAG is correct that there would be some people that would take this "guaranteed income" waste it and then be in absolute poverty until the next check comes in which would again be wasted. In between checks they would starve, which is what the program is suppose to prevent. The bottom line is you can't build massive government program based on an "ideal" of what you think people should and would do with the handout. Because many will not live up to the "ideal." You have to build it to "worse case" and that is a much more expensive and intrusive proposition Just_A_Guy and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted January 12, 2017 Report Share Posted January 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, estradling75 said: The bottom line is you can't build massive government program based on an "ideal" of what you think people should and would do with the handout. Because many will not live up to the "ideal." You have to build it to "worse case" and that is a much more expensive and intrusive proposition You hit on the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives. In my experience liberals think human nature is innately good and decent while conservatives know better. Yes, it's a generalization but it's fairly accurate. Many liberals I know think "Well if I got a monthly handout I wouldn't abuse it, so no one else would either." While conservatives generally understand that humanity doesn't work that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Well let's try the experiment on a small group of people and see what happens! The uk has a very generous benefit system, I have many 1st cousins there. A good social program system is not Armageddon. Europe has a number of different systems. Some are disasters eg Greece, others are better eg Germany. Is there a EU nation without a generous: health care system, vacation, maternity leave? Some countries are thriving. Some not so much. At least admit that it is possible to have a generous welfare system without ruining the country: Uk, Germany, Sweden, Australia Canada. We are still standing. Do we have problems? Yes. The alcoholic employees in Canada...big problem especially in a northern country. I suspect that in our Canadian way there are ways of dealing with the situation that are nor written down but which become apparent when you call the provincial government. I am trying to work out the system. With employment law in general, many laws don't apply if you are small. If you have a small company and you don't want to hire visible minorities, we won't force you. Another saving grace is that it is very easy to get help. There is a friendly 800 number that you can call for all kinds of help if you work for and run a business. The government will send a nice person out to help. But yes, there are problems. Try opening a business up here. The red tape will kill you. Try getting a liquor license! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Sunday21 said: Well let's try the experiment on a small group of people and see what happens! The uk has a very generous benefit system, I have many 1st cousins there. A good social program system is not Armageddon. Europe has a number of different systems. Some are disasters eg Greece, others are better eg Germany. Is there a EU nation without a generous: health care system, vacation, maternity leave? Some countries are thriving. Some not so much. At least admit that it is possible to have a generous welfare system without ruining the country: Uk, Germany, Sweden, Australia Canada. We are still standing. Do we have problems? Yes. The alcoholic employees in Canada...big problem especially in a northern country. I suspect that in our Canadian way there are ways of dealing with the situation that are nor written down but which become apparent when you call the provincial government. I am trying to work out the system. With employment law in general, many laws don't apply if you are small. If you have a small company and you don't want to hire visible minorities, we won't force you. Another saving grace is that it is very easy to get help. There is a friendly 800 number that you can call for all kinds of help if you work for and run a business. The government will send a nice person out to help. But yes, there are problems. Try opening a business up here. The red tape will kill you. Try getting a liquor license! One thing you need to remember... You can't equate the United States of America with Germany, Sweden, Australia, etc. If you want to equate them, you'll have to equate the members of the EU to the members of the USA... for example: If it is possible in Germany, then it is possible in Ohio. Or if it is possible in France, then it is possible in Louisiana. Now, if you want to equate something to the USA, then you'll need to say, if it is possible in the EU (or the old USSR) then it is possible in the USA. The demise of the USSR and EU's Brexit should give you an understanding on why those things may work within STATES in the United States but will not work for the entire Union. And... instead of making the USA be like everybody else, you need to realize that there is a reason why European Nations FOLLOWED the USA model and formed the EU. Really... the US set-up is a much more superior system that has managed to evade the pitfalls of Europe. Edited January 13, 2017 by anatess2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmarch Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 On January 10, 2017 at 5:41 PM, Sunday21 said: http://www.basicincomepilot.ca/ We are thinking of trying out a guaranteed income. WHat do you think? Sweet. Are we going to start enslaving other nations to do the work for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 On 1/12/2017 at 7:54 AM, anatess2 said: I don't deign to speak for JAG as he is quite capable of defending himself but I would just like to point out that nothing in JAG's post indicated that ALL poor people are unable to get their lives in order. I just read it again. Twice. And I still don't see where you got that conclusion from. Rather, what I read is that JAG stated that there are those who squander their resources and end up poor. He didn't say that those who are poor squandered their resources. Big ginormous difference between those two sentences. Just so. It isn't that they will *all* waste it; but some subset of them--I'm thinking of addicts specifically--will. If you take those who blow through their checks and then give them all the things they were supposed to buy for themselves, then 1) you've created a really perverse disincentive to those who spend prudently, and 2) all of a sudden you *still* need bureaucracies to administer housing, food stamps, et cetera; and you've lost the administrative simplification that cash assistance was supposed to offer. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 I can appreciate wanting a cheaper and streamlined source, particularly if you have reason to believe the majority will use it to step up. I even get the idea behind socialism of everyone pooling resources for things everyone wants. I am just not sure if I trust it. An Investigator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Well Finland is about to do a small experiment. Let's see how it goes. Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Sunday21 said: Well Finland is about to do a small experiment. Let's see how it goes. If you want a really good selection of yummy food from around the world (Thai to Texas Steak House), go to Helsinki - all right in one fairly tight location. Yum. Sigh, I miss the good old days. (We now return you to your regularly-scheduled Canadian television.) Edited January 15, 2017 by zil Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Here are the discussions on a guaranteed income project run in Canada in the 1970s. Apparently 5 projects like this were run in the us. http://web25.uottawa.ca/academic/health/ipph/EvelynForget_phiric.pdf https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/colby-cosh-what-the-poverty-advocates-forget-about-canadas-flirtation-with-a-basic-income Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Dup Edited January 15, 2017 by Sunday21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 32 minutes ago, zil said: If you want a really good selection of yummy food from around the world (Thai to Texas Steak House), go to Helsinki - all right in one fairly tight location. Yum. Sigh, I miss the good old days. (We now return you to your regularly-scheduled Canadian television.) Love it! Have you been to Helsinki! The pictures of the town look lovely! zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, Sunday21 said: Love it! Have you been to Helsinki! The pictures of the town look lovely! Yes, long ago, for a long weekend. One of my favorite pairs of shoes came from there - long since worn until there were holes in them. It was a very nice town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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