You know I'm gonna be difficult, but did I go too far?

[dahlia]

So the other night I took our very young missionaries to dinner. I think the Church is taking them out of middle school these days... Anyway, I got a call tonight asking me if I would go with them on a lesson to someone nearby.  Let's just say that after some questioning on my part (because I knew where this was going), I find out that the investigator is black (of course, they never ask me to go to anyone else) and a single mother (of course, because that just perfectly fits the narrative about what black women are [and yes, I know there are white single mothers, but white women aren't defined by single motherhood as are black women].

I debated if I should just beg off because I was tired from work, or if I should speak some truth and educate these guys. Well, I choose to educate. I tried to do it very nicely, recognizing that they are both young and not used to diverse populations.  But I can.not tell you guys how tired I am of being asked to go see the black investigator, who is always poor and uneducated. No. Don't want to do it. These people aren't my friends. They won't become my friends. They aren't people I socialize with, they don't want to socialize with me. We don't have anything in common. 

Why, in name of all that's holy, do I, in one of the whitest states in the Union, have to meet every black investigator some Utah boy runs into? Do these people not understand that doing this appears as racist? It's not that I think these sweet boys are racist; I do think they don't understand what it looks like to the 'other' to be dragged around to all the other 'others' and never asked to meet anyone else. 

There's also something else. Many of the black people here come from Chicago as a number of (stupid, #*#*# lib communities) invited them down for the Section 8 housing and a better life in the cornfields. However, what most of them have done is to bring Chicago crime with them. You're aware of Chicago crime statistics, no? I live in a wonderful area where the UPS guy can leave your package at the door, where people are friendly and hard working, and then there are... the Chicagoans.  It's like the worst of Philly (where I lived for years) dropped into a sea of innocents.  I don't care if the investigator is a woman. The Chicago people brought their female criminals, too. And if the woman isn't a criminal, her boyfriend is. I know you good people will say I'm exaggerating, but unless you've lived in a big city with a majority black criminal element, you have no idea how real this is. And if you want to say everyone can change, perhaps, but they can do it without me. At 63 and living alone, I don't plan on being anyone's victim.

I know we are children of God and all that, but I just don't want to meet with these people. I told the missionaries that I would be happy to meet the investigator if they ever get her to church. Obviously, with this attitude, she is probably better off without me anyway. Was I wrong to tell the elders my real reason for not wanting to meet their investigator? 

[Guest MormonGator]

You have a serious right to be angry. If I were you I'd have a major issue. This needs to be addressed with leadership five minutes ago. 

[Maureen]

34 minutes ago, dahlia said:

...Was I wrong to tell the elders my real reason for not wanting to meet their investigator? 

Not at all, better to be honest. Hopefully they've learned something.

M.

[Jane_Doe]

Being honest it the best move-- and that's the move you made.

[beefche]

I don't think you were wrong to tell them how you feel and set boundaries on how you will help. And yes, these young men probably don't realize that what they are doing is racist (or at least, perceived as racist). As long as you aren't being rude or harsh, instructing them will only help them.

I can see them asking you to help with an investigator who may have some issues with the history of the church and the priesthood (addressing the 1978 revelation). As a black person, you will have insight into the objections and can provide testimony despite the history. But, again, if you are unwilling to go to the homes of people (your reasons are your own), then simply let them know you are unable to do so. Perhaps you could discuss it with them if they attend church. 

 

[Sunday21]

You are not wrong. Your actions make complete sense.

[unixknight]

I can see both sides of this one.  On one hand, I can see why you'd feel like the token that they bring along to boost their credibility with an investigator who is black.  On the other hand, I can also see where they might feel like their not being black makes it hard for them to be credible because of the way racial tension has been ratcheted up in our culture over the last few years.

So I don't blame you or them, but would recommend some prayer on this point.  It may be that these guys just don't feel able to connect with these investigators because of their naiveté, but it's also possible that you can make a real difference, at least in some cases.

I'm sorry to hear of the Chicago crime issues coming to your area.  I don't blame anybody for wanting to get away form Chicago, but it would be great if people could get out of that place and not bring that trouble with them.  Maybe in the long term, missionary efforts will help fight it by bringing something better.

[Guest]

@dahlia,

I know exactly where you're coming from.  

Quote

When I was in 5th grade, the principal called me to the front office.  I had no idea why.  I saw my sister coming down the hall and found that she was also called.  I raised an eyebrow and wondered what it was about.  Was my family hurt or something?

We got to the front office and found that there was a Korean child a year or two younger than I who couldn't speak English.  So I asked,"So why did you call us?"

"How would you feel if you were all alone and couldn't speak the language?"

"Again, why did you call us?  What good are we supposed to do?"

"Well, you just need to be nice."

"I can be nice.  I don't see how much good that will do when I can't even communicate to him."

"But you're Korean too."

"That doesn't make much difference when I can't even speak the same language."  They couldn't really deny that fact.  But they refused to let me go back to class.

It took me many years to figure out that there was really nothing wrong with what they did.  They just wanted to help this boy feel better.  And they had no idea what to do.  So, they were grasping at straws.  Useless?  Maybe.  But sometimes the Lord grants us gifts simply because we're willing to do whatever He asks, no matter if it makes sense or not.

The specifics of your situation (including the nuances that we can't know without being there) make the response your decision.  So, I'm not going to tell you that you're right or wrong.  What I can say is that many times I just roll my eyes and go along with it.  Is the work they're asking you to do "good works"?  Then you should do it at a priority level that your life allows for.  Do you actually feel like you can do some good?  Then do some good.  If race should have nothing to do with their request, then it should have nothing to do with your response.

You mentioned that you cannot relate to these specific individuals because you don't share their background.  Who in the ward DOES share that background?  SOMEone needs to relate to them.  Why NOT you?

Edited July 11, 2017 by Guest

[Sunday21]

I am the go to girl for some types of investigators. Shy, nerdy students. I try not to think about why they would want me!

[estradling75]

There is a very sad fact of the world we live in is that the color of ones skin can cause issue...  Another sad fact that is that White people (especial young while males) are told quite clearly that they can't get "Racial issues" that they need to sit down, shut up, and take whatever answer non whites say need to be done.

Given this... is it at all surprising when the missionaries encounter "Racial Issues" that they turn to the best "Authority" they have that society deems acceptable to address the issue?  Congratulation @dahlia that's you... and you have my sympathies as well.

By all means if you know a better way for the young missionaries to address powerfully and directly the issues of race and the church in a manner that will help reassure investigators.  And one that works better then a living and breathing success story (aka you)...  Then by all means share that wisdom.  We could all use it

[Guest MormonGator]

I was thinking about this last night. I've been asked to go out with the missionaries to meet people with tattoos before, but I've never felt used by it.Granted, having tattoos is NOTHING like being of a certain race. So I can understand where @dahlia is coming from to a very, very very small degree. Like I said, it's nothing like race. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by MormonGator

[unixknight]

46 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I was thinking about this last night. I've been asked to go out with the missionaries to meet people with tattoos before, but I've never felt used by it.Granted, having tattoos is NOTHING like being of a certain race. So I can understand where @dahlia is coming from to a very, very very small degree. Like I said, it's nothing like race. 

Tattoos are nothing like race, you're right... and yet in this case I think you're also right to draw the comparison.  Anything that culturally sets the Missionaries apart from the investigators they're talking to can be a thing that a fellow member can help with.

I was once asked to go with the Missionaries to visit an investigator who was a former Catholic, and believed in the Church and wanted to join, but was refusing to get Baptized.  After talking to her as a fellow former Catholic, I realized that she just didn't realize that you can get Baptized more than once.  From her point of view, it was "Well I've already been Baptized, so why would I do it again?"  The answer is priesthood authority, of course, but I don't think she'd quite understood that fully at the time.  After I told her that I had been Baptized as an infant into Catholicism, but was Baptized again as an adult when I joined the Church, she readily agreed and was Baptized a few weeks later.

So it's sometimes something as simple as bringing in a perspective that the investigator can connect with, that the Missionaries themselves just don't have the personal experience to deal with on their own yet.  It can be race, religion or tattoos.  Doesn't matter, the solution is still the same.

[dahlia]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You mentioned that you cannot relate to these specific individuals because you don't share their background.  Who in the ward DOES share that background?  SOMEone needs to relate to them.  Why NOT you?

Probably 'cause I don't want to. No one is asking the white folks to relate to criminals from Chicago.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, dahlia said:

Probably 'cause I don't want to. No one is asking the white folks to relate to criminals from Chicago.

I can certainly understand that.  But what if it isn't about what you want?  What if it isn't about what the missionaries want?  What if it is about what the investigators need? 

It isn't just about the ignorance of a couple of young white kids just out of their parents' home trying to do whatever they can.  You probably know as well as I do that the criminals from Chicago are probably pretty racist themselves.  Whether you feel like you can relate to them is a lesser point.  They will only listen to another black person simply because that is what they know.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I can certainly understand that.  But what if it isn't about what you want?  What if it isn't about what the missionaries want?  What if it is about what the investigators need? 

It isn't just about the ignorance of a couple of young white kids just out of their parents' home trying to do whatever they can.  You probably know as well as I do that the criminals from Chicago are probably pretty racist themselves.  Whether you feel like you can relate to them is a lesser point.  They will only listen to another black person simply because that is what they know.

I can see both sides here. @dahlia is right, it is about the ignorance of naive, wet behind the ears missionaries. I do not think they are racist, just a little clueless. 

That said, @Carborendum is also right here. Sometimes people listen better to those who look like/act like them. So both of you have a point, in my view. 

[Guest]

Just now, MormonGator said:

I can see both sides here. @dahlia is right, it is about the ignorance of naive, wet behind the ears missionaries. I do not think they are racist, just a little clueless. 

That said, @Carborendum is also right here. Sometimes people listen better to those who look like/act like them. So both of you have a point, in my view. 

FWIW, I'm not really arguing for or against anything.  I think it would be perfectly understandable and even correct for her to refuse to go on splits with the missionaries anymore.  But I'm simply offering different perspectives to evoke thought.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

FWIW, I'm not really arguing for or against anything.  I think it would be perfectly understandable and even correct for her to refuse to go on splits with the missionaries anymore.  But I'm simply offering different perspectives to evoke thought.

Oh absolutely! Like I mentioned I think both of you are right and raise great points. 

[dahlia]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I can certainly understand that.  But what if it isn't about what you want?  What if it isn't about what the missionaries want?  What if it is about what the investigators need? 

It isn't just about the ignorance of a couple of young white kids just out of their parents' home trying to do whatever they can.  You probably know as well as I do that the criminals from Chicago are probably pretty racist themselves.  Whether you feel like you can relate to them is a lesser point.  They will only listen to another black person simply because that is what they know.

Perhaps you are unaware of the classism and colorism in the black community? You've probably heard about blacks who accuse those who try hard in school or try to speak correctly of 'acting white.'  There is also an issue of some high yellow person such as myself telling dark skinned people about themselves. Nope. I don't even want to go there.

I do hear what you're saying about the investigator's needs. I'm not blind. I just don't know how much I have to give to this population.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, dahlia said:

Perhaps you are unaware of the classism and colorism in the black community? You've probably heard about blacks who accuse those who try hard in school or try to speak correctly of 'acting white.'  There is also an issue of some high yellow person such as myself telling dark skinned people about themselves. Nope. I don't even want to go there.

I do hear what you're saying about the investigator's needs. I'm not blind. I just don't know how much I have to give to this population.

Yes, I'm aware of it.  And in the end, you're probably right.  I'm sure you feel about as useful as I did with that younger student.  I was just trying to delve into the topic a bit further.

[askandanswer]

As the father of a currently serving missionary, I hope that the members in the branch where my son is serving will always respond positively when asked by the missionaries for assistance. Education is important but the highest priority always has to be the saving of souls and the work associated with that task, so I recommend saving first and educating later. As the first Australian born missionary serving in the first, newly created Chinese branch in an Australian mission, with a mainland Chinese companion as his trainer, my son has a lot of cultural issues to work through.