The Mormon Church Supported and Benefitted from Nazi Germany

[Anddenex]

16 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

When I first saw this, I felt I knew what they were referring to.  I believe this individual is probably referring to an unfortunate event in which, yes, the LDS church did side with the Nazi's against it's own. 

 

I am familiar with this young man, and nothing confirms what you say with the LDS siding against its own. The Church counseled its members, probably knowing exactly what would happen if they did not listen. This young men went against the counsel, and unfortunately he was turned in by his bishop (very sad), if I am remembering the story correctly. This young man was the youngest person to be executed, because they said he was smart for his age and thus could be tried as an adult.

When we act against counsel, we have to accept personal responsibility for the consequence. This is not the Church being complacent, complicit, or in support of the Nazis. This would be similar to saying because the Church took the same stance with East Germany, they were supportive, complicit, and complacent with what was being done within the walls of East Germany. No, they weren't. They honored the 12th Article of Faith, and because so our people were able to worship their God, without much interference from the government.  Our members were also allowed to go outside of the wall to the temple in small groups because of the Church's stance, and the government said to the Church leaders something to this point, "If you say your people will come back after going to the temple, I can trust you because you have shown respect for our laws and government. The Church's stance was able to get a temple into East Germany before the wall fell.

If the Church counsels its members to be neutral and an individual chooses not to, then they have to accept personal responsibility for their actions, not the Church. If I counsel any of my sons to not do something, and they choose to do so, they are responsible for their actions. This does not make me complacent, complicit, or supportive of the neutral stance I am taking, especially if it isn't my government.

This would be similar to me going to the Middle East, a city that expects woman to be fully covered. I counsel my daughters to honor the government. They decide to disregard my counsel, even though their stance may be right, they will face the consequence of their decision. This does not mean I am complacent, complicit, or supportive. This means I have an understanding of government and I am trying to teach my children the same.

[JohnsonJones]

20 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I am familiar with this young man, and nothing confirms what you say with the LDS siding against its own. The Church counseled its members, probably knowing exactly what would happen if they did not listen. This young men went against the counsel, and unfortunately he was turned in by his bishop (very sad), if I am remembering the story correctly. This young man was the youngest person to be executed, because they said he was smart for his age and thus could be tried as an adult.

When we act against counsel, we have to accept personal responsibility for the consequence. This is not the Church being complacent, complicit, or in support of the Nazis. This would be similar to saying because the Church took the same stance with East Germany, they were supportive, complicit, and complacent with what was being done within the walls of East Germany. No, they weren't. They honored the 12th Article of Faith, and because so our people were able to worship their God, without much interference from the government.  Our members were also allowed to go outside of the wall to the temple in small groups because of the Church's stance, and the government said to the Church leaders something to this point, "If you say your people will come back after going to the temple, I can trust you because you have shown respect for our laws and government. The Church's stance was able to get a temple into East Germany before the wall fell.

If the Church counsels its members to be neutral and an individual chooses not to, then they have to accept personal responsibility for their actions, not the Church. If I counsel any of my sons to not do something, and they choose to do so, they are responsible for their actions. This does not make me complacent, complicit, or supportive of the neutral stance I am taking, especially if it isn't my government.

This would be similar to me going to the Middle East, a city that expects woman to be fully covered. I counsel my daughters to honor the government. They decide to disregard my counsel, even though their stance may be right, they will face the consequence of their decision. This does not mean I am complacent, complicit, or supportive. This means I have an understanding of government and I am trying to teach my children the same.

 

And your statement is why there are many that have a problem with the story in regards to the LDS church.  It's this idea that has hurt some individuals testimonies.

The LDS church is, in fact seen as a cooperative entity with Nazi Germany.  You can say you don't like history, or what it portrays, but that's the dice.  The church did, in fact cooperate with the Nazis, and in fact DID benefit from it.  Was that inspiration, revelation, or some other item?  It would surely have suffered (and a certain favorite apostle of some may have never grown up to be an apostle) had they not done so.  It was because of that complicit and cooperative nature which left the church somewhat intact to be effective after the Nazi's were gone.

Your argument that he was going against the church's wishes is also something that hurts testimonies.  How can a young man who chooses to do the RIGHT thing...doing wrong?

I see it differently.  He was excommunicated, and excommunication that the LDS church never nullified in and of itself.  I think that shows the power of your church leaders, and how important it is to be righteous and reverent enough to do as the Lord would, instead of how we would.  His leader probably also used that type of justification that you stated. 

However, the LDS church has also taught us to think for ourselves, to gain a testimony for ourselves.  The LDS church stated that though they didn't nullify the excommunication (have they ever done this?), they did say the excommunication was done improperly and thus implied that his excommunication was NOT in line with what should have been done.  He was rebaptized and all other ordinances in the temple.  I see this as the LDS church showing their support for his decision.

In this light though, the LDS church in Germany sided against their own member, when the member chose to do the right thing.  Standing up to tyranny and evil, such evil as we saw in Germany, is NOT wrong.  However, the LDS church in Germany at this time chose to side with the Nazi's rather than do anything to help Helmuth (where in prison he was bereft of even the simple civil rights of a warmth and decent food, and was open to abuse, when the church could have provided some of those things for him).

Was it the right choice?  I don't know.  To this day, I couldn't tell you.  I'd say they shouldn't have excommunicated him, and though he was, it was done improperly.  Was it right to cooperate or be complicit in light of Nazi Germany's evil...I don't know.  Luckily, I wasn't the prophet, that was a hard decision he had to make.  Because of his (edit: to clarify, the prophets statements of what the saints in Germany were to do in regards to the Nazi's in power and the German government) decisions, the church existed in Germany after WWII, even behind the iron curtain.  That, in itself, is a miracle that compounded on itself when the Temple was built.

I prefer to see Helmuth's story as an inspiration for LDS individuals though, rather than something that is disparaging by showing things we can wonder about endlessly in regards to decisions that the LDS church had to make.

Edited August 17, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Snigmorder]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

When I first saw this, I felt I knew what they were referring to.  I believe this individual is probably referring to an unfortunate event in which, yes, the LDS church did side with the Nazi's against it's own.  They are probably referring to Helmuth Hubener.  I do not believe in hiding history, or ignoring that it occurred.  His is a story that one can read to hurt their testimony, or build it up.  It is one that has made some doubt the LDS church because of what they did to him. 

He is a shining example of what type of leader the LDS church raises when it utilizes the Scouting program, and the type of individual which should be an inspiration.

I'll summarize his story below.

He was original in the Scouting program until the Nazi's took over and forced the youth to join the Hitler Youth.  Helmeth found that many things that were being taught or done did not seem to be congruent with his LDS upbringing, nor the things that he had learned as a young man.  He was not alone in this.  There were several members that felt this way.

However, the LDS church's policy has always been one more of neutrality rather than opposition to whatever government is in power or not in power.  In this light, Heber J. Grant recommended LDS members to remain in Germany, to try to cooperate when needed with the appropriate authorities, and to not cause trouble.  Helmeth, did not follow this counsel.  In this light, however, the LDS church is seen as one of the organizations that cooperated with Nazi Germany at that time, and unlike other religions which were persecuted fiercely, avoided much of the persecution that others suffered.  They are also not seen as standing up for what was good or right against a tyrannical government.

That said, history can be unkind to those it leaves in it's wakes in how it sees the LDS church in this situation.  Heber J. Grant and the Brethren may not have realized what was happening in Germany (and almost no one did in regards to the death camps, even many Germans, until after the War, and for many that did find out, they didn't find out till near the end of the war anyways).  We cannot know how the church would have responded if they knew.  Perhaps it would have been the same.  As I said, though seen as cooperative with the Nazi Government (or as much as any organization that wasn't run by them, which meant that they still suffered somewhat), the saints did NOT suffer as grieviously as others.  In this light, perhaps it was revelation to preserve the saints as much as possible and leave the church on firm ground that had this revelation come forth.  Because of this, the church eventually was able to build temples and other things for those many saints that remained, and include us getting an apostle from there today.  We may not have had that if the church had some other policy in place.

I don't know, but the rest of the story of Helmuth is tragic.

Helmuth supposedly lived in a ward where around 3/4 or more of the pro-Nazi supporters who were also LDS went to church.  The leader of the church was one of those. 

Helmuth had gotten access to a radio via some friends, and could hear the BBC over it.  He found out that the stories the German government told them, and what was told elsewhere were vastly different.  With his background, he knew he could think critically.  He did not have to follow blindly.  This is something LDS leaders have taught us for decades, to find out for ourselves what the truth is rather than relying on the words of others.  He went forth and decided that what was happening was wrong and wrote pamphlets trying to expose the truth.

He was captured and placed in prison by the German government/Nazi's.  Just listening to those broadcasts was considered treason (be glad we live in the US where we can listen to what we wish).  Distributing pamphlets critical of the Nazi's was even worse.  He was scheduled to be executed.  He was stripped of being a citizen and human rights. 

During this time, Helmuth was promptly excommunicated by his church leader.  In prison, he suffered from exposure to the cold elements without much comfort except the cold floor.  He had little food.  Excommunicated from the church with all that this meant, on the verge of being Excommunicated, he exclaimed "know that God lives and He will be the Just Judge in this matter… I look forward to seeing you in a better world!"

Helmuth knew that the man who excommunicated him was very pro-Nazi, the very group he opposed.  He still remained true to the faith, and had a testimony, despite all that seemed against it, of the truth and the gospel.  He was beheaded, I think he is the youngest one accused of treason and being an enemy sympathizer that was killed for that at the age of 17.

The LDS church came in four years later and said that the excommunication was done through improper channels.  Helmuth never had the ability to attend the church court that excommunicated him, and it never was assembled at a higher level than the ward.  That said, the LDS church did not nullify the excommunication either.  Instead, they had him rebaptized, and his ordinances done.

Because of this, it has angered people.  Some feel that this indicates that the LDS church cannot be true because of their choices in the matter of Helmuth Hubener.  I think this stance dishonors his memory.  If anything, I personally believe (so this is a personal belief, not fact, or anything like that) that Helmuth would rather people know he still had a testimony, that he knew how the excommunication should have been done, and what his true stance with his Lord in heaven was.  I feel he would rather people join the LDS church and remain faithful, even when all other abandon them like Job, and keep their testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel.  I think he recognized the difference between the gospel and what it teaches, and that of the choices of men, even leaders in the church occasionally...and that there IS a difference, especially with local leaders occasionally.

I think Helmuth is an example of what we should be, and the testimony each of us needs to strive to attain.  I see the story of Helmuth Hebener as someone who kept their testimony, even when all else was lost.  He was one that took to heart that each of us needs to find and discern the truth, and choose the right no matter what the worldy cost, with the guarantee that our rewards in heaven will be given us and that the Lord is just, even if those of the world are not.  I think his testimony at the end, that God lives and is the Just Judge, shows us that we each can have a testimony that transcends just the church and it's organization here on earth, but one that is of the true gospel of the Lord.

As I said, I think this is probably the story and ideas which were referred to, and I can see how it can be taken the way it was expressed.  I also see how it can also be a shining testimony to each of us to hold strong and NEVER lose the faith in the Lord and his path.

 

Accusing the church of "tolerating the Nazis" seems like a bad case of presentism.

[Midwest LDS]

I think the story of Helmuth Huebler reveals two important fact about the Church.

1. While we are lead by revelation God does not reveal all things in this world to his prophets at all times. For example you can find a famous quote from Joseph Fielding Smith saying that man will never land on the moon. Does this invalidate him as a prophet? Hardly, he was a mighty warrior of the Lord who received many powerful revelations. But he was also a man, and was allowed to hold his own opinions and was not shown all things that would ever happen. President Grant was the same, he did the best he could for the Church in a chaotic situation without being shown how evil the Nazis would become.

2. Huebner is in good company having to suffer through a false excommunication. Our Savior himself was cast out by the man who purported to be His High Priest, although that wicked man was too spiritually dead to know it. The same is true of Huebner's Branch President. While Zander's crime was not on the level of Caiaphas's, it was in the same vein and perpetrated through the same wicked spirit. Not only did he not consult his superiors, he did not even have the courage to hold a church court "excommunicating" him on his own authority, completely invalidating it in the eyes of God. Huebner knew this in his heart, and knowing God as I do, I'm sure he gave this young man an extra portion of the Holy Spirit to help him through his martydom. The church, rightly disregarding Zander's illegal excommunication, rebaptized and did Huebners temple work so there would never be any doubt as too his final destination with God. 

In that respect I agree with @JohnsonJones. Studying the whole history of the event actually strengthens my testimony in the church. For me it shows that our prophets and apostles will always try to do what's right, even if it requires them to fix a mistake. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Midwest LDS
Clarification

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

And your statement is why there are many that have a problem with the story in regards to the LDS church.  It's this idea that has hurt some individuals testimonies.

They are welcome to their individual problems, and it isn't my statement that is the catalyst to their problems, nor a hurt testimony. People choose to be hurt, and if truth hurts, this is something they have to look inward and overcome themselves.

 

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

The LDS church is, in fact seen as a cooperative entity with Nazi Germany.  You can say you don't like history, or what it portrays, but that's the dice.  The church did, in fact cooperate with the Nazis, and in fact DID benefit from it.  Was that inspiration, revelation, or some other item?  It would surely have suffered (and a certain favorite apostle of some may have never grown up to be an apostle) had they not done so.  It was because of that complicit and cooperative nature which left the church somewhat intact to be effective after the Nazi's were gone.

The LDS can be seen as many things, this doesn't justify what you are specifying. No one said they don't like history, or what it portrays. I provided examples of how silly it is to portray that the Church was complicit and supportive, this is just silly and naive. The Church honored a government, as it did with East Germany and as it does now with Russia again pertaining to missionary service. The inspiration is called 12th Article of Faith. It is really this simple. We can see the same sentiment now, as the Church took back then with Russia:

"The Church recognizes a new law will take effect in Russia on July 20, 2016 that will have an impact on missionary work. The Church will honor, sustain and obey the law. Missionaries will remain in Russia and will work within the requirements of these changes. The Church will further study and analyze the law and its impact as it goes into effect." (emphasis added)

People will continue to twist the Church's decision by saying the Church is supportive, complicit, and complacent with Russia's decision. No, they will do as they have always done, honoring, sustaining, and obeying laws of governments. Yes, this is called following inspired guidance that was given by Joseph Smith. Truly simple.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Your argument that he was going against the church's wishes is also something that hurts testimonies.  How can a young man who chooses to do the RIGHT thing...doing wrong?

No, people hurt their own testimony. Truth doesn't hurt a testimony unless a person allows it. It is a truth, this young man (although courageous) did go against what the Church was counseling. This brings your own words back to surface, "You can say you don't like history, or what it portrays, but that's the dice." I provided a very simple example of how someone is able to disregard counsel and then face the consequence. Your comment regarding doing right and doing wrong doesn't apply. He followed his heart. He disregarded counsel. He accepted the consequence of his decision to defy the Nazis. If the Church counsels the membership, as they did, to not do something, and then you do it. This isn't the Church's fault.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I see it differently.  He was excommunicated, and excommunication that the LDS church never nullified in and of itself.  I think that shows the power of your church leaders, and how important it is to be righteous and reverent enough to do as the Lord would, instead of how we would.  His leader probably also used that type of justification that you stated.

I will begin with the unfortunate last statement you have made. First, you have no clue what justification the leader used to justify his actions, so this becomes moot. Second, his leader was "a" supporter of the Nazis government. He wasn't just honoring, sustaining, and obeying the law. So, again, your last statement is unfortunate and problematic, and untrue, as you have no clue and are speculating.

Here is an article that you should read regarding this young man, Helmuth Hubener, and here is snippet, "It is well known that the Branch President of the St. Georg Branch in Hamburg, Arthur Zander, excommunicated Helmuth Hübener at the time for his treasonous behavior and that the Church ultimately nullified the excommunication, reinstating his membership, after the war. The excommunication of Hübener is a perplexing episode. It is true that Arthur Zander was “enthusiastic in his support of the Nazi regime” (Minert, 128), which Rudi Wobbe claimed was very rare among the Mormons in the Hamburg District. But regardless of Zander’s own political leanings, when Hübener was arrested it put the whole branch in great danger. The branch came under the scrutiny of the Gestapo, which was a terrifying prospect, especially for any in the branch who sympathized with Hübener. After the arrest agents frequently attended meetings, taking notes. The Gestapo naturally believed that adults in the branch had influenced Hübener and his friends to act (ibid., 129). In fact, the acting District President of the Hamburg District, Otto Berndt, was interrogated for four days by the Gestapo following the Hübener arrest (ibid.). Berndt miraculously survived the interrogation without incriminating himself in the eyes of the interrogators by accidentally contradicting himself as he answered questions not only about the Hübener group’s activities but also “about the teachings of the Church, the relationship of the Church and the state, the philosophy of the Church regarding Jews, and several other topics” (ibid., 130). Apocryphally, Berndt is said to have been told after these four days of relentless interrogation that “after the Jews, the Mormons are next.” (emphasis added)

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

In this light though, the LDS church in Germany sided against their own member, when the member chose to do the right thing.  Standing up to tyranny and evil, such evil as we saw in Germany, is NOT wrong.  However, the LDS church in Germany at this time chose to side with the Nazi's rather than do anything to help Helmuth (where in prison he was bereft of even the simple civil rights of a warmth and decent food, and was open to abuse, when the church could have provided some of those things for him).

This is a scripture you need to become familiar with, "And in the fifty and first year of the reign of the judges there was peace also, save it were the pride which began to enter into the church—not into the church of God, but into the hearts of the people who ^aprofessed to belong to the church of God—." The principle being taught in this verse of scripture is that pride was in the hearts of those who professed to belong to the Church. The LDS Church did not side against their own member. The bishop, but not the whole ward, sided with the Nazis government. This is a huge, and simple distinction. Yet for some reason, people (like yourself) are likening one branch to the whole Church.

Have you thought hard on this subject? Honest question, because I can't really tell. If the Church came out against the Nazis government, and begin to shoot slanders, what ramifications would have happened to other members of the ward, and other wards in Germany? Helmuth made a choice, he knew the consequence if he was caught. You seem to be saying, the Church (not just the branch) should have come out in rebellion against Germany. Ya, that would have turned out great for members in Germany. Instead of one member suffering the consequences of his personal decision, all members would suffer. Nice thought. Look at how Germany treated those that rebelled against the head, and then you have your answer. Read again the snippet I provided you with, particularly this statement, "Apocryphally, Berndt is said to have been told after these four days of relentless interrogation that “after the Jews, the Mormons are next.” (emphasis added)

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Was it the right choice?  I don't know.  To this day, I couldn't tell you.  I'd say they shouldn't have excommunicated him, and though he was, it was done improperly.  Was it right to cooperate or be complicit in light of Nazi Germany's evil...I don't know.  Luckily, I wasn't the prophet, that was a hard decision he had to make.  Because of his (edit: to clarify, the prophets statements of what the saints in Germany were to do in regards to the Nazi's in power and the German government) decisions, the church existed in Germany after WWII, even behind the iron curtain.  That, in itself, is a miracle that compounded on itself when the Temple was built.

I prefer to see Helmuth's story as an inspiration for LDS individuals though, rather than something that is disparaging by showing things we can wonder about endlessly in regards to decisions that the LDS church had to make.

The right choice is moot for either you or I to decided. The Church followed already inspired revelation from God to Joseph Smith. So that is the right decision for the Church. Helmuth will account before the Lord his decision, as all of us will. He made the choice he felt was right, that is what matters. I don't condemn him. His decision though brought the whole branch under scrutiny, which is what the Church was hoping to avoid.

Helmuth story is an inspiration for all people, not just youth. He stood up for what he believed. His decision caused grief to his ward members also. Our decision affect other people. One thing is for certain, the Church continues to honor the 12th Article of Faith, and that is a good thing, no matter how many people want to wrest what the Church actually did.

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Anddenex

[Midwest LDS]

On the other hand I also agree with @Anddenex. I completely reject the notion that the church was somehow complicit with Nazi Germany. Other than direct revelation from God, they had no way of knowing how evil Nazi Germany would become.

Also I know we all believe that in this kind of situation, we would be Huebners and stand against evil. But the truth is the flesh is weak, and when we stop speaking hypothetically and actually live through an event as horrific as a Nazi goverment, I believe many of us would fall short in the same way Peter fell short, who denied Christ to save his life (and I say this with the greatest respect for Peter, he is one of my heroes as he proved with a lifetime of service). I'd like to believe I would have acted better than Zander, but I've never been in danger of my life, so I can't say for certain that I would not have fallen short. I believe it is always a mistake to assume you would do better from the safety and comfort of your armchair.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[priesthoodpower]

43 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

 

Also I know we all believe that in this kind of situation, we would be Huebners and stand against evil. But the truth is the flesh is weak, and when we stop speaking hypothetically and actually live through an event as horrific as a Nazi goverment, I believe many of us would fall short in the same way Peter fell short, who denied Christ to save his life (and I say this with the greatest respect for Peter, he is one of my heroes as he proved with a lifetime of service). I'd like to believe I would have acted better than Zander, but I've never been in danger of my life, so I can't say for certain that I would not have fallen short. I believe it is always a mistake to assume you would do better from the safety and comfort of your armchair.

We were at a ward BBQ in the churchs parking lot a few years back and a water ballon fight broke out. Our EQ president was hunched over helping his 5yr old daughter tie a water balloon. A couple of youth boys (14yr olds) came running out of nowhere with a bucket of water to douse him, at the very last second our EQ pres. grabbed his daughter and used her as a shield. Courageos? hardly. Smart? maybe

[Suzie]

5 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

 The LDS church stated that though they didn't nullify the excommunication (have they ever done this?), they did say the excommunication was done improperly and thus implied that his excommunication was NOT in line with what should have been done.  He was rebaptized and all other ordinances in the temple.  I see this as the LDS church showing their support for his decision.
 

Actually, the Church nullified the excommunication and reinstated his membership after the war.

[Just_A_Guy]

IIRC, Hubener was his branch clerk; and he used his branch's typewriter to produce many of his writings.  Whatever Zander's personal political leanings may have been, he and the branch were in a horrible position once Hubener was arrested.

We can admire Hubener's moral compass and sheer chutzpah, while still noting that his actions were terribly reckless.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Suzie]

10 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I have a friend on Facebook that commented on her wall regarding the President's response to the Neo-Nazi group, and it is breaking her channel. Here is one comment directed toward her and the Church, which I wanted to find out thoughts. I did a quick search and the top results are from ex-Mormons and you know the think Mormon that pretends to be neutral and only providing facts.

The irony, the rest of her comment was talking about not perpetuating hate and falsehoods.

Even though there were many members and leaders (among the 15,000 in Germany) who openly supported the Nazi party, particularly with regards to the use of alcohol, etc among the youth,  the Church always maintained caution. They didn't benefit from it. Quite the contrary, the majority of the members lived in fear. Missionaries had several restrictions with regards to meetings, places and even Church literature. Some books were strictly forbidden. The Gestapo spied Church services, the scouting program was eliminated, and even some hymns were forbidden. And all of this is JUST the tip of the iceberg...

 

 

[JohnsonJones]

6 hours ago, Suzie said:

Actually, the Church nullified the excommunication and reinstated his membership after the war.

There are many Mormons that hate facing the truth, or want to rewrite the truth.

AS for the Leader of the church unit, the excommunication of Hubener was NOT done properly.  It was NOT approved by the Stake, nor by any other higher authority at the time.  The leader was part of the Nazi party and very PRO-Nazi.  Unfortunately, instead of saying that whatever his decision was, since it was done improperly and did not go through the proper channels or method, was invalidated and had no power or effect, hence no action in regards to rebaptism was needed because the original baptism was enough, that did not happen.

In this instance, the reason people get upset is that his excommunication was NOT nullified.  Nullified means that there would have been no need for rebaptism.  This is actually a big sticking point with those in various places because instead of nullification (in which case, no rebaptism would be necessary), the excommunication was accepted and so a rebaptism WAS done (or I suppose for temple ordinances and such).

It is a strange case, to say the least.  In 1946 a notation was added to his record that he had been excommunicated by mistake.  That still left him excommunicated.  Family members then were proactive and got him rebaptized in the temple in January 1948.  Finally, later in the month, the record was again amended by George Albert Smith to say the excommunication was reversed.  However, this still left the notation that he had actually BEEN excommunicated and  was seen also as being done as the individual now had been rebaptized.  The rest of the ordinances were done in June of that year in the temple.

When they say, nullification, it means the actual excommunication was of no effect, meaning no rebaptism would be necessary. 

The sticking point is whether this has ever actually been done in the history of the LDS church. I don't know of any situation where the LDS church has straight up nullified an excommunication and stated no rebaptism is necessary, as I notated above.

We, as Mormons, however, do no favors to try to hide our history in this.  When we hide history or try to say it didn't occur, people WILL find out, and WILL find the truth. 

Were the Mormons complicit and cooperative with the Nazi's in WWII Germany.  Yes.  They were. This is NO secret, especially in Germany and other locations. 

Trying to say it didn't happen, or rewrite this is similar to some humorous Japanese history rewrites In saw in the entertainment arenas where the Japanese told WWII stories where they were with the allies against Germany, or were the actual good guys of the War.  Even if those programs tried to rewrite history, the rest of the world knows the truth, and trying to rewrite or hide it isn't going to make people think differently.

What it does, is make people look poorly on the LDS church at times (though in this instance, this isn't the church trying to rewrite stuff, the church has admitted much of this, I see it as specifically members who feel uncomfortable seeing this, without trying to understand).

The thing is to try to understand WHY it was done, and what occurred because of it.  In this instance, we know what probably would have occurred to the LDS church if it hadn't cooperated with the Nazi's.  The same that happened to others that didn't cooperate or were not complicit.  In many instances, those organizations ceased to exist, the people killed or severely restricted, and a huge amount of suffering ensued.  All organizations that were not directly under the control of the Nazi's suffered somewhat, but those who did not cooperate, faced hardships that we today probably can't even imagine.  People think that cooperation is a bad word, and in some ways it is.  What they don't realize is the COST of Non-cooperation with the Nazi's in Germany at that time.  Those who did not cooperate, and were not complicit...well...in that light, Hubener is also a good story to reflect upon.  If the LDS church did not cooperate, look to see what happened to Hubener to see what else may have happened to the membership.

Because of the cooperation, the LDS church remained in Germany.  It continued to exist both in the West, and surprisingly even survived somewhat behind the Iron Curtain.  This is the effect.  It is in essence, a miracle that this occurred, and even more miraculous that because of this, and the church's neutrality in general as well as being seen as supporting whatever government was in charge (whether Nazi...or Communist later on in the East, or other wise), a temple was allowed to be built in an era where such things were normally not allowed.  That is a HUGE miracle.

In addition, though the church was complicit and cooperative, a fact that probably preserved the church, not all went down easily or nicely.  Otto Berndt deserves recognition in this.  Zander was the Hamburg District leader for the Nazi Party, however, Otto Berndt was the Hamburg district President.  He did not agree with what Zander did, and in fact was severly interrogated himself in regards to the Helmuth affair.  He never broke under questioning, and in reality considering the harsh circumstances, should have died.  He attributed divine intervention as to why he survived.  Berndt did not actively oppose the Nazi's, however, he also did not simply bow the knee and be optimistically engaged as Zander was.  Berndt may also be the one who we can attribute to trying to help correct the wrongs against Hubener after WWII. 

Of interest, the LDS church suppressed much of Hubener's story until the 1990s.

An excellent book, at least from a historian perspective, is Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany by David Conley.  It goes further than what I have stated about cooperation, and makes the theory that the LDS church was not just cooperative, it actually collaborated with Nazi Germany.  I see it more as a non-biased book, but some Mormons who don't really know about historicity here may view it as an attack against Mormons.  It words things far stronger than I would have, but I see it as telling an essential history that we need to know, while recognizing the heroics that went on (such as Helmuth Hebener and Otto Berndt) at the same time.

In history circles, I actually would be considered somewhat weak in contesting that the church ONLY cooperated and at worst was complicit, where as many feel the LDS church was actually a collaborator.  I still hold that the church was cooperating, and it is pure nonsense to try to argue that they weren't.  No one outside the LDS church would take you seriously, and I doubt even the LDS history department would take that claim seriously.  It's no secret about the cooperation of the LDS church in Nazi Germany.  That said, I would NOT argue that the LDS church was a collaborator however (even if some historical contexts such as the book above would make that claim), which is where I think some people in this thread are getting confused.

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

Just to be clear, I am NOT positing that the LDS church were Nazi collaborators, they WERE cooperative however, and complicit.  One can see many of the miracles that occurred because of this stance, not just with Nazi Germany, but with the Communist government in the East after that. 

The book that I suggested above is NOT for the weak of testimony.  It is probably the best book out there in regards to Mormons in Germany from the mid 1800's on, and though I see it as non-biased, I know many members who are offended by my comments in this thread may see it (the book) as an attack on the church.  It takes a FAR stronger stance against the LDS church's activities (as I stated, it basically says the LDS church collaborated with Nazi Germany, a stance I personally DO  NOT agree with, though I do admit the LDS church definitely cooperated with the government in power at the time) and as such, may offend some of those who don't like my comments in this thread and others like them. (this is a heads up and warning for those who may be offended by it so they aren't surprised if they pick it up and are so offended later).

The LDS church suffered less even then some other religious organizations that also cooperated with Nazi Germany.  Cooperation did not mean easy sailing.  LDS churches were still searched at times, hymnbooks confiscated, and anything positive about Jews or Israel at times destroyed.  What it did mean was that the LDS population overall did not get sent to death camps or other places of horror.

The biggest significance of this though, that I see, is that we can see the blessings to those who followed the prophet's counsel, and the miracles in Germany that followed after WWII.  One can see this as a testimony building experience, or one that hurts it.

As I stated before, Helmuth is probably the biggest example that is used today in this regards to the LDS church's actions in Germany (and as I said, it's not just the excommunication portion, while in prison, membership could have aided him with comforts and other things he was denied, but chose NOT TO...that's not just the branch president there this lies upon.  In addition, Hubener was disavowed up until at least 1945 by the church in Germany and was known to membership).  However, the most inspirational thing is Helmuth NEVER LOST HIS TESTIMONY.  In an instance where I think most of us would despair, deserted by friends and members, and to a point, even the church, HE HELD TO THE FAITH.  I cannot express how inspirational that story is in that light.  Even where most of us would have no hope, he still kept his faith in the Lord and his testimony of the gospel.  That speaks volumes more about the truth of the gospel and how if we have a testimony of it we will not fall when upheld by the Lord in our faith.

In many ways, his story is one of a hero as well, one that has been known by Germans and German saints far longer than that of Mormons in general.  His story is one that can build your testimony of the church, and the gospel, if you can see and understand the different elements of it. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I know it sounds crazy, but this individual is talking about LDS (Mormon Church). The best part is the individual saying "It's literally white people going to other cultures..." I served with quite a few Latino missionaries. I guess Latino is the new white. My dear Latino members, you are no longer "Latino" if you serve a mission. You are now "literally" a white person.

Here's something I can add to the list.

I believe the best speech ever given in General Conference was "Don't Look Around.  Look Up."   'nuff said.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Guest

[estradling75]

The idea that the Mormon Church Supported and Benefited from Nazi Germany... is kind of like saying the people of Limhi supported(with their tribute) and benefited from their Lamanite masters.

People seem to have the false idea that God would never have us submit to an evil worldly power in-spite of all the scriptural evidence to the contrary.

The people in Limhi's day were commanded by God to submit to the Lamanites... And first they rebelled against God and their Lamanite masters... and they got crushed.  It was not until they submitted to the will of God in all things did they begin to have power, and eventually freedom.

Same with the church in Nazi Germany... God told the church members to submit.  Those that did not heed the council got crushed, those that did gained power and strength and (eventually) freedom. 

 

 

[Anddenex]

20 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The idea that the Mormon Church Supported and Benefited from Nazi Germany... is kind of like saying the people of Limhi supported(with their tribute) and benefited from their Lamanite masters.

People seem to have the false idea that God would never have us submit to an evil worldly power in-spite of all the scriptural evidence to the contrary.

The people in Limhi's day were commanded by God to submit to the Lamanites... And first they rebelled against God and their Lamanite masters... and they got crushed.  It was not until they submitted to the will of God in all things did they begin to have power, and eventually freedom.

Same with the church in Nazi Germany... God told the church members to submit.  Those that did not heed the council got crushed, those that did gained power and strength and (eventually) freedom.

Also similar to Alma and his people who fled and then were discovered by the Lamanites. When discovered they had to submit to different restrictions, and if not, they would die. The Lord blessed them with stronger backs to bear up their burdens. In what is presented, by the individual online, is that Alma was complicit and complacent because he didn't stand up against. Your example is great and clear.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The idea that the Mormon Church Supported and Benefited from Nazi Germany... is kind of like saying the people of Limhi supported(with their tribute) and benefited from their Lamanite masters.

I was putting some thoughts together on this very same thing.  But you said it very well.

[Fether]

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-forty-the-saints-during-world-war-ii?lang=eng

not sure if someone posted this yet, but here is a church history manual chapter about WWII. There is a section that talks about Mormon Nazis and had a pretty cool story.

Helmuth is mentioned briefly 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Fether

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, estradling75 said:

The idea that the Mormon Church Supported and Benefited from Nazi Germany... is kind of like saying the people of Limhi supported(with their tribute) and benefited from their Lamanite masters.

People seem to have the false idea that God would never have us submit to an evil worldly power in-spite of all the scriptural evidence to the contrary.

The people in Limhi's day were commanded by God to submit to the Lamanites... And first they rebelled against God and their Lamanite masters... and they got crushed.  It was not until they submitted to the will of God in all things did they begin to have power, and eventually freedom.

Same with the church in Nazi Germany... God told the church members to submit.  Those that did not heed the council got crushed, those that did gained power and strength and (eventually) freedom. 

 

 

?????

Is that simply because you don't like Nazi Germany that spurs this.  I get the feeling a LOT of these statements are NOT because people are interested in the truth of what happened, but out of emotion because they can't believe the LDS church benefited in a situation like that. 

I could go listing things that the LDS church benefited from their association in Germany, but from many responses, it sounds like there are many that do NOT want to hear history and instead wish to ignore it.  In that light, I feel by talking about the miracles that happened then and later which directly benefited the church, would not be well understood or accepted by some here.

If one wants to understand why the prophet's statements may have been inspired, then it is important to understand HOW the church benefited from following what he stated.  When one understands those benefits, and what happened to other church's and religions, one can see how it truly turned into a miracle during WWII and in the ensuing years where they had similar stances with other governments.

Yes, I think Helmuth Hebener was a Hero, and did the right thing, but I also think the church was blessed by following what the prophet stated.  It is possible for both to be accurate.

In many instances, the initial response to the history of the LDS church in some areas may not sit well with you, and in that situation you can have it hurt your testimony, you can try to understand it and in that instance your testimony may grow, OR, you can try to ignore or rewrite it or disagree with historical facts.

The reason I think people can't believe that the LDS church cooperated (which was absolutely necessary for survivial in Nazi Germany, even cooperation brought on things like church searches and other things, non-cooperation was a death sentence for MANY people), or that the LDS church didn't benefit is because when one mentions the word Nazi, it instantly brings up the image of bad guys and evil...and the instinct to disavow any connection one may have springs to our lips (or in this instance, our fingers).

Instead, I'd encourage people to read and understand history, and then, instead of trying to fight the world and say it never happened, embrace it. 

There are many stories in the gospel and the church that may appear horrible at first.  However, as we understand what it was for, or the blessings that may have come from it, normally if we allow the spirit of the Lord, our Testimonies can grow.

There is more I could say on how this story personally affects me, but I don't think that might go over well with some people here.

Edited August 17, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-forty-the-saints-during-world-war-ii?lang=eng

not sure if someone posted this yet, but here is a church history manual chapter about WWII. There is a section that talks about Mormon Nazis and had a pretty cool story.

Helmuth is mentioned briefly 

Thanks for the link.  Nice reading for those who are interested.

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

?????

Is that simply because you don't like Nazi Germany that spurs this.  I get the feeling a LOT of these statements are NOT because people are interested in the truth of what happened, but out of emotion because they can't believe the LDS church benefited in a situation like that. 

I could go listing things that the LDS church benefited from their association in Germany, but from many responses, it sounds like there are many that do NOT want to hear history and instead wish to ignore it.  In that light, I feel by talking about the miracles that happened then and later which directly benefited the church, would not be well understood or accepted by some here.

If one wants to understand why the prophet's statements may have been inspired, then it is important to understand HOW the church benefited from following what he stated.  When one understands those benefits, and what happened to other church's and religions, one can see how it truly turned into a miracle during WWII and in the ensuing years where they had similar stances with other governments.

Yes, I think Helmuth Hebener was a Hero, and did the right thing, but I also think the church was blessed by following what the prophet stated.  It is possible for both to be accurate.

In many instances, the initial response to the history of the LDS church in some areas may not sit well with you, and in that situation you can have it hurt your testimony, you can try to understand it and in that instance your testimony may grow, OR, you can try to ignore or rewrite it or disagree with historical facts.

The reason I think people can't believe that the LDS church cooperated (which was absolutely necessary for survivial in Nazi Germany, even cooperation brought on things like church searches and other things, non-cooperation was a death sentence for MANY people), or that the LDS church didn't benefit is because when one mentions the word Nazi, it instantly brings up the image of bad guys and evil...and the instinct to disavow any connection one may have springs to our lips (or in this instance, our fingers).

Instead, I'd encourage people to read and understand history, and then, instead of trying to fight the world and say it never happened, embrace it. 

There are many stories in the gospel and the church that may appear horrible at first.  However, as we understand what it was for, or the blessings that may have come from it, normally if we allow the spirit of the Lord, our Testimonies can grow.

There is more I could say on how this story personally affects me, but I don't think that might go over well with some people here.

???

 

If the Lord command you to do something... then I fully suspect that at some point you would gain a Benefit..  Claiming the benefit was from some worldly organization might be technically correct, but it is like thanking the scalpel and not the Doctor that wielded it for a successful operation.

Did the church benefit from following the Lord council in Germany... absolutely I would expect nothing less.  Saying the church did what they did in Germany to "help the Nazis" rather then because they were following God commands shows a lack of faith that the Church was then being lead by God to serve his ends (Even with flawed humans sometimes screwing up)

[JohnsonJones]

13 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

???

 

If the Lord command you to do something... then I fully suspect that at some point you would gain a Benefit..  Claiming the benefit was from some worldly organization might be technically correct, but it is like thanking the scalpel and not the Doctor that wielded it for a successful operation.

Did the church benefit from following the Lord council in Germany... absolutely I would expect nothing less.  Saying the church did what they did in Germany to "help the Nazis" rather then because they were following God commands shows a lack of faith that the Church was then being lead by God to serve his ends (Even with flawed humans sometimes screwing up)

help????

As I stated previously, though popular historical perception is that the LDS church were Nazi collaborators, I actually disagree with my peers in that arena.  You will find me in the minority because of that view.  I am not arguing that the LDS church were Nazi collaborators.  Ignoring that they benefitted from being complicit or cooperating is to ignore what happened in history. 

The views that some have expressed in this thread that disagree even moreso to what history stated would not be taken seriously by any historian in many instances though.  Even my arguments that though the LDS were cooperative, they were not collaborators are not taken seriously in some instances.  However, benefiting and blessing can be two sides to the same coin.  Historically speaking, there is no way to deny the LDS church benefitted or as some would say, was blessed by how the church in general acted in Germany at the time.

It's similar to how we are blessed in the US.  For example, if you stated that you are blessed by the Lord to be able to access the genealogical resources kept in the US, you could say it was a blessing from the Lord, and you are right.  However, many would also say that you are benefiting from the freedoms granted to individuals in the US to be able to do so.  Others in other nations may not have those blessings/benefits.

In many instances, blessings and benefits are congruently the same in observation.

Now, there's a LOT more too it, that could definitely be stated as blessings (for example, the church members suffered along with the rest of Germany at the end of WWII with the bombings and post war events...to a degree many today would be absolutely floored by...but via the blessings of the Lord many of these burdens were lightened to the point that some can point back to that time and see the hand of the Lord...), but what one would term as benefits to the LDS church because of their cooperative nature during WWII could also be seen as benefits directly related to their stance regarding the governments at that time.

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

help????

As I stated previously, though popular historical perception is that the LDS church were Nazi collaborators, I actually disagree with my peers in that arena.  You will find me in the minority because of that view.  I am not arguing that the LDS church were Nazi collaborators.  Ignoring that they benefitted from being complicit or cooperating is to ignore what happened in history.

We are not ignoring it... I am pointing out that blessing and benefits from God are to be expected and a given as a default.  Therefore the only reason to bring up the blessing and benefits without mentioning that it was of God is to attribute it to more worldly source which is common these kind of accusations.

 

[JohnsonJones]

1 minute ago, estradling75 said:

We are not ignoring it... I am pointing out that blessing and benefits from God are to be expected and a given as a default.  Therefore the only reason to bring up the blessing and benefits without mentioning that it was of God is to attribute it to more worldly source which is common these kind of accusations.

 

Huh?

What in the world???

Okaaaaay.  If that's what you think.

I think I've often enough pointed out how miraculous these things were, in fact repeatedly...but...if that's what you think...sorry you think that way about me.

[estradling75]

7 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Huh?

What in the world???

Okaaaaay.  If that's what you think.

I think I've often enough pointed out how miraculous these things were, in fact repeatedly...but...if that's what you think...sorry you think that way about me.

You seem to insist on making this personal and all about you.

This was a thread and I responded to the Subject Line and you seem to think I kicked your dog

 

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, estradling75 said:

You seem to insist on making this personal and all about you.

This was a thread and I responded to the Subject Line and you seem to think I kicked your dog

 

My mistake then.  I apologize.