Scott's Question About Jephthah

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Scott said:

The problem with that explanation is that is the exact opposite of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (Joseph Smith did finish the book of Judges), the Bible Dictionary, and the Chapter headings in the Scriptures. 

Nope.  It is not.  You're putting words into their quills & keyboards.

18 minutes ago, Scott said:

The JST, Bible Dictionary, and Chapter headings make it clear that the daughter was indeed sacrificed (the word burnt offering is specifically mentioned). 

Nope.  "Burnt offering" is never mentioned in the chapter heading or the Bible Dictionary with regard to Jephthah. The JST does NOT give any further information on the topic that the KJV.

18 minutes ago, Scott said:

While it may be true that the Bible Dictionary is not considered official doctrine (the introduction to the Bible Dictionary even clarifies this), the JST is.

I'd say no to each of these statements.  But that's another topic that isn't really important.

18 minutes ago, Scott said:

I don't know if you know this, but Cassel, whom is quoted as the source wasn't ever a member of our Church, in fact he didn't believe in it. Cassel was a Bible scholar, temperance preacher, and publisher, not of our faith. 

And ???  How many times have we heard C.S. Lewis quoted in General Conference?  How many times are his words quoted in our lessons?  He was a great Christian thinker.  And he had a lot of good things to say.  He also really didn't like Mormonism -- I'm not quite certain I'd categorize him as an anti-Mormon.  But he really was not a fan.

18 minutes ago, Scott said:

 I'm actually not sure why the Old Testament uses his explanation that goes directly against the JST translation of the Bible.  There are many other instances of this as well.

Again, you've created your own interpretation of the words and insisted you are correct before recognizing the story behind the story.  The JST is not what you think it is.  And if that is the source of your concern, I'm afraid you're not as learned as you believe your memorization makes you.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

You should check out the corresponding Wikipedia article on Jephthah.  

The idea that the "sacrifice" meant perpetual virginity has gone back for centuries and is based off of the idea that the verse is mistranslated, that it should read, "Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, or I will offer it up for a burnt offering."  This would explain the perpetual virginity - the daughter surely was the Lord's, but she was not offered as a burnt offering.

Such a situation would still fit the "rash vow" discussed in the Bible Dictionary.  If my parents told me they covenanted with the Lord that I would be a virgin forever, I think I would have been pretty upset!

Even if it is a burnt offering, I am unaware of any scripture or prophet saying the Lord approved of such an outcome.  Could it be, if Jephthah actually sacrificed the daughter, it is a sign that he was actually wicked, that he is an example of Israelites bringing in pagan belief into Judaism, and that the people were indeed very, very wicked?  Perhaps something would be lost in translation.  I am not seeing that the Lord actually approved of human sacrifice here, but there are certainly many ways to think about it.

[JohnsonJones]

In essence the chapter was explaining an Israelite Custom and why it is done. 

The chapter itself indicates that it was not a burnt offering necessarily, but could have been an either/or (as Dr. Lemon has already stated).  This is evinced upon the idea that she wants to go away to grieve that she will never marry.  If she was going to be killed and burned, there probably would have been far more she would have been grieving about, and her entire family as well.

However, either way, it is an example of to beware of rash vows and oaths.  It's sort of like fairytales like rupelstiltzkin where the protagonist makes a promise but really doesn't realize the ramifications of it till later.

[Guest Scott]

Thank you so much for moving this to a different thread.   I feel that the discussion was distracting from the intended purpose of the other thread.  

I am very appreciative for other's insights on the scriptures and am thankful for the discussion.   I also want to say that I'm not here to argue, be contentious or to tear anyone down.   I respect any differing ideas.  In fact, I'd appreciate some understanding of this scripture.

Here is the scripture story in question, for those that care to follow.   This is the story of Jephthah and the sacrifice of his daughter as related in Judges 11:29-40..

29 ¶ Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32 ¶ So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.

33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34 ¶ And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrelsand with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.

36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, evenof the children of Ammon.

37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

Bible Dictionary:

Jephthah 

Judge of Israel; for his history see Judg. 11–12. He is chiefly known for his rash vow, in consequence of which he offered his own daughter in sacrifice. He is commended in Heb. 11:32, probably because of his delivery of Israel from Ammon.

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The story says that Jephthah offered his daughter as a burnt offering.  Some Biblical scholars, such as Cassel have theorized that the words burnt offering was actually a spiritual sacrifice and one of perpetual virginity.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Book of Judges.   You can check this for yourself in the Church History...

<post too long to quote in its entirety.  But I READ ALL OF IT>

 I think you did try to pray.  But by your own admission, the route you took was not to listen to the Lord and be guided by the Spirit.  You chose instead to rely on your own intelligence and ability to memorize.  All you've done here is convince me more and more that you're guilty of the sin of pride.  By that I mean that you're trusting in your own strength and abilities above the strength of the Lord.

Your ability to memorize is not the same as the ability to understand.

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28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

2 Ne 9:28-29

1. I never said you were judging anyone or being judgmental.  Again, something you read and believe you understand, but completely misunderstand without even questioning whether that was the intended message.
2. You've assumed that I didn't read your MULTIPLE posts on the fact that "Joseph finished the Book of Judges" in his translation.  I read it multiple times.  You don't need to repeat it.
3. You assumed I didn't read the Bible Dictionary entry.  I obviously did since I pointed out it did not say what you believed it said.
4. You've assumed that I'm not familiar with the passage in question to the point that you felt it necessary to repost the entire passage in LARGE LETTERS with BOLD words to emphasize what I "obviously" missed.  I am familiar with the passage.  And I re-read it as you sent the reference.  I know exactly what it says and exactly why you think what you do.
5. Yes, you ARE trying to argue scripture.  That's exactly what you've done.  You've decided what the "correct" interpretation of the scripture is and you refuse to acknowledge other interpretations. And you haven't even asked about my own interpretation. You've just assumed that I am wrong whatever I believe.  You've read my one sentence position.  But did you know where I was coming from on it?  But you felt it necessary to prove me wrong when you didn't even know where I was coming from.
6. No, you've not been asking the question about why you don't find peace with it. You've been asking why others could possibly find peace with it when "it is so perfectly clear" that your interpretation is correct.
7. You want me to PM you about doctrines of the gospel?  Why?  How do we learn truth by studying the scriptures in darkness?  How can speaking of things in the open be counterproductive when seeking light?  If you have some other item of personal sensitivity, ok, I get that.  But that is not what you said.

Yes, there are answers to all the questions you've asked above, except, you didn't really ask any questions.  You made accusations in the form of questions.  Given that, there really is no way to teach you anything.  You think you're trying to learn?  No, you're trying to hold your position and prove everyone else wrong because you're obviously smarter.

Humility is a prerequisite to learning.  And you just don't have any of it.  What's worse, is you actually believe you're humble.

[Guest Scott]

41 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

 Yes, there are answers to all the questions you've asked above, except, you didn't really ask any questions.

Patience my friend.  In this thread, I posted the above to give some background.  I am writing my questions right now, but I just wanted to post some background for others.  Please give me a little time.

 

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But by your own admission, the route you took was not to listen to the Lord and be guided by the Spirit.

When did I say that?   I tried that for many years. 

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Your ability to memorize is not the same as the ability to understand.

Then help me understand.  I have said that I have studied the scriptures pasted and that they are a stumbling block.   I have also studied all the material provided in the threads long before I came to this forum.

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You've assumed that I'm not familiar with the passage in question to the point that you felt it necessary to repost the entire passage in LARGE LETTERS with BOLD words to emphasize what I "obviously" missed. 

The large letters are simply a direct cut and paste.   That's how it pasted from LDS.org.   I guess I could have changed the font, but I didn't know that the different font was important.
 

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And you haven't even asked about my own interpretation.

Of course I am interested in your own interpretation, especially if it is something I haven't read or studied before.

Anyway, I am writing my questions right now.  I hope that they aren't misinterpreted to say that I am trying to be contentious.    

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How can speaking of things in the open be counterproductive when seeking light?  If you have some other item of personal sensitivity, ok, I get that.  

 

Friend, I am willing to openly speak of this in the open.   I just felt it was counter-productive to my intentions on the other thread.  In fact, I received my answer there and was glad I asked.  This thread is a much better place to get deep into the story of Jephthah.

 

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You've been asking why others could possibly find peace with it when "it is so perfectly clear" that your interpretation is correct.

That's not what I'm asking.   I am glad that you find peace with it.  I have stated that I have not.  You and I both know this now.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.   I want you to convince me that there is a satisfactory explanation for the story of Jephthah.

I already know that any religion can not be proved or disproved by hashing it out on the forums.   Even if it could be done (it can't), I wouldn't want to do that.  I came here asking for advice, not to give it.

I am on this thread to discuss the story of Jephthah.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Scott

[zil]

I hate to get in the middle of your discussion with @Carborendum, and I really don't need any replies - this is for you to think on, but:

Once upon a time, I read something very clever which stuck with me.  It was essentially advice from a wise character to a student to stop reacting to expectation and learn to observe what was really there without expectation influencing the observation.  Ever since, I have noticed this tendency in humans constantly - we react to what we expect a person to say or do rather than waiting to observe what they really say or do.  To some degree, this may be necessary (e.g., when driving, you make decisions based on other drivers' expected behavior), but it is wise not to get so comfortable in your expectations that you fail to observe what is really happening (or hear / read what is really said).  With that said, here are the thoughts of someone who has never given this passage much thought:

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30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

...So, before he's gone off to battle, he states his intent.  His intent is to offer an unknown thing (or person!) as a burnt offering.  (No additional knowledge or event is required to call this a rash.)

Now, an observation: it would seem from these words: "whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me" - that he didn't mean "my house" the way we do - unless he was expecting to offer a person or the family dog (probably no such concept back then) as a burnt offering.  "My house" must have meant his property, homestead, or some such.  I think it more safe to assume he meant to sacrifice the first animal he saw (still rash, unless all his animals were of the kind that were OK to sacrifice), unless he was truly wicked - see @DoctorLemon's post.  OR, the translation is wrong.

We should probably start a separate discussion if we want to talk about whether even the JST could have this translation wrong.

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v 35: ...I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.

...Remember the "it's better to obey than sacrifice" scripture?  Apparently Jephthah forgot this - OR, his vow didn't require him to make a human sacrifice - which he surely knew was sin, even if he was wicked.

PS: Note that somehow she seems to know her fate, but we have no verses wherein he tells her what his vow was, so right there we know the retelling of this story is incomplete (not unusual with OT stories which are more chopped than Cliff Notes).  Why trust your faith to an incomplete story?

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39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. ...

It doesn't say anything about him offering her as a burnt sacrifice here.  But if he did, what do we know?  We know that God would NOT approve of this, regardless of what prior approval and blessings Jephthah had.  We know that Jephthah would have been condemned of the Lord regardless of what his fellow countrymen thought of him after this event.

PS: Seriously, you think she'd come back to the slaughter?  I think she'd have run away from her nut of a father.

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Chapter heading: ... He makes a rash vow, which leads to the sacrifice of his only daughter. 

Bible Dictionary: ... He is chiefly known for his rash vow, in consequence of which he offered his own daughter in sacrifice. ...

These do NOT say "burnt", nor "offering".  Are we really sure we know what this means, or are you assuming or expecting a particular meaning?  Would it really be such a terrible thing to believe that the rational explanation is correct and that the "and" should have been an "or"?

In short, we can't be sure of the details of this story, and Jephthah's foolishness should not come between us and the Lord before we know with certainty the full story - which we probably won't know before the resurrection, if then, so put it on a shelf.

Here's a question: Have you asked the Lord with real intent (to follow him, no matter the answer)?  Because (regardless of what Jephthah did), I'm thinking if you asked fully intending to believe in and follow him regardless of the answer, that you would be more likely to get an answer than if you couched your question in conditions like, "I'm not gonna keep believing in you if you tell me you let him make a burnt offering of his daughter".  (Of course, I think the most likely answer to this prayer is "don't worry about it", but I don't think it's impossible for the Lord to open your eyes, if you're truly able to receive.)

PS: I agree that you've made erroneous assumptions about things @Carborendum said - e.g. his use of the word "judge".  Slow down a bit.  Try to forget what you think you know and come at it as if new.

4 minutes ago, Scott said:

I want you to convince me that there is a satisfactory explanation for the story of Jephthah.

Are you familiar with the story in Moses where the Lord tells Moses that he's not going to show Moses any details about all the other worlds he's created, but only this world?  There's a principle there.  Or the story where Nephi is told not to write more of what he sees because it's reserved for John the Beloved to write?  There's a principle there.  There are stories we clearly do not and never have had the details of.  Maybe they are things the Lord isn't going to give us more about.  Maybe they're reserved for future revelation.  To choose disbelief (and it is a choice) because you don't know or understand all the details of an OT-era story seems like saying, "I refuse to acknowledge all the good until you've explained away these things which look bad from my perspective."  That seems like the opposite of faith.

First doubt your doubts.

[Vort]

Thoughts while reading about Jephthat and his unfortunate daughter:

• Does the translation provide an accurate account of the original ancient Hebrew story?
• At no point in this story does the voice of God command the sacrifice to happen. Rather, Jephthat makes the vow, then feels obligated to follow through on the vow. The story seems to be about the importance of divine vows, even when difficult, and a warning against making any vow rashly, no matter how compelling the reason.
• Was the Hebrew account considered by the ancients of the time to be a faithful recording of an actual event? Might it instead have been understood to be didactic and not historical? I wonder the same thing about Lot's daughters. (I remember some non-LDS Christian who insisted that all of Jesus' parables were based on actual events of Jesus' time, because otherwise Jesus would have been lying. I was, and remain, unconvinced. Might this kind of story be similar, in that it would have been seen by ancient eyes as an obviously instructive tale rather than an eyewitness account?)
• There is a distinct air of unreality about the vow. What kind of idiot would say he would offer as a burnt offering "whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon"? It doesn't take much imagination to see how this could go tragically wrong. Jephthat was not portrayed as a stupid man, so something else is going on here.
• According to the Bible, Abraham was commanded to offer Isaac as a burnt offering to God. Does that have anything to do with this story? If so, how?
• The scholars like Cassal sound like they're reaching with the "perpetual virginity" theory. On the other hand, maybe that sort of reading makes some sense. Frankly, it's not much less believable than that someone would make the vow itself.
• Joseph Smith's "translation" was, by my understanding, never intended to be a complete revision of the Bible to restore its text to their pristine original meanings, or even to make them completely doctrinally correct. So Joseph's having "finished" the book of Judged doesn't suggest to me that he was pronouncing every word and story to be an accurate representation, either of God's will or of history.

My thinking centers on the second and especially the third bullet point. I rather suspect that much ancient historical literature was less concerned with accuracy of event and more concerned with accuracy of understanding. Now, I realize that this is a somewhat patronizing view of the ancients -- "the ancients didn't have our fastidious interest in what really happened, but were more interested in keeping their moral interpretations straight" -- but I also realize that the fact we think about things in a certain way today doesn't guarantee that's how people thought about things anciently. Again, if Jesus' parables were completely fictitious, would that change their validity or importance? Might it be that we moderns have a misplaced insistence on historicity in all cases?

[Vort]

Might I add that many Old Testament stories, including those of Esther, Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac, and Joseph's exploits in Egypt, not to mention Adam and Eve in Eden, have the distinct odor of history told through a parabolic, perhaps figurative or at least highly symbolic, lens. The stories of Jonah and Job both read as fantasy scripts, though I assume they were real men. This goes to my discussion in the post above. We must approach the Old Testament especially with caution, because there are many layers of separation of culture, symbolism, and understanding between those people and us many thousands of years later. It doesn't make the literature false; it means we need to be careful of interpretation.

[Guest Scott]

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Nope.  It is not.  You're putting words into their quills & keyboards.

I will try to use exact cut and pastes of wordings wherever possible.   I have cut and pasted the Bible Dictionary and the Scripture verses themselves in the above thread.

(PS, please forgive any font changes.  I am posting this from word so I can save it for further study).

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The JST does NOT give any further information on the topic that the KJV.

Yes, this is exactly why I struggle with the scripture.  The Bible is organized into themes, rather than always by chronology.   The first part of the Old Testament is History, the second part Poetry, and the third part Prophets. 

Unfortunately, I do not have the volumes of the History of the Church memorized, so feel free to correct me if I make an error.  If I do make an error, it is unintentional and I am human.

 As far as is known in Church Joseph Smith never did finish the translation of the Old Testament, but it is known (or at least believed) that he did finish the History themed books of the Bible, including the book of Judges, but with the exception of the book of Ruth.

It is also believed that he didn’t finish the Poetry section of the Bible (and hardly touched the book of Ecclesiastes with any corrections), but that’s another topic.
 

Here are my questions and my ears are open in order to hear your interpretations with an open mind.

If the Book of Judges was translated, why were the words burnt offering not changed?  

 I am looking for what is not there, rather than what is there.

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 The JST is not what you think it is. 

OK, let’s discuss this further.  Feel free to correct me and I will listen to what you have to say.  I would like to iterate again that I don’t have the volumes of the History of the Church memorized, so if I do misquote something or make a mistake, please feel free to correct me.

 The JST is more than just the footnotes in the latest versions of the Bible.  It is a lot more than that.  The parts of the JST in the latest version of the Bible that us LDS use have been canonized.

 Most of the JST was completed from 1830 to 1833, though it was worked on sporadically up until the prophet’s death in 1844.  As mentioned most the History section of the Old Testament was translated.    

 Although the JST was not complete, some sections were complete, such as the Book of Moses and JS Matthew.   

 Added much later are the JST footnotes which we obtained from what was then the RLDS Church (especially due to the efforts of Matthews and Howard) and they were incorporated into the latter versions of the KJV of the Bible as one of the three Standard Works. 

 Is there anything above that needs to be corrected?   If so, I will not argue and will be happy to be corrected. 

 I guess my main question and struggle concerning the book of Jephthah is that if the Book of Judges was translated, why weren’t the words burnt offering corrected in the JST?   

 The other struggle I have is that the Bible makes it appear that Jephthah is still held in good standing after the sacrifice of his daughter.   If the daughter really was just offered as given to the Lord as a perpetual virgin, then it wouldn’t be so perplexing, but that’s not how the scripture reads, at least in my eyes and after much study.

 If you have studied this out a lot as well, I’d be happy to listen to your interpretations.   I can’t promise that I will agree with them (but would be happy if I can), but I will listen to them with an open mind. 

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 Have you asked the Lord with real intent (to follow him, no matter the answer)? 

Yes.  I promise that I have over a period of many years and my intents were real as was my sincerity.  I have prayed with real intent for hours and hours.

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 Because (regardless of what Jephthah did), I'm thinking if you asked fully intending to believe in and follow him regardless of the answer, that you would be more likely to get an answer

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than if you couched your question in conditions like, "I'm not gonna keep believing in you if you tell me you let him make a burnt offering of his daughter".

 I can tell you that that’s not what I did.   I prayed, studied, and pondered the best I could for many years.  I used to believe 100% in the scriptures, and in an attempt for a greater understanding, I tried to memorize the scriptures and it weakened my testimony.

 My struggles with the Scriptures aren’t just about Jephthah.  That was just a random example.   My struggles with the Scriptures are mostly about killing for religion or religious purposes.  

 I was in the military and I agree 100% that we need to kill for the purpose of defending our lives and freedom.  On the other hand, I have seen terrorists threaten to kill people in places I have been for the purposes of religion.  Now you all know.

 Even if someone could convince me 100% that Jephthah never sacrificed his daughter, my stumbling block with the Old Testament is that it tells stories of people in good standing with the Lord that kill for religious purposes, rather than for defense. 

 I’m sorry, but that’s where my doubts occurred.   I have always been sincere in trying to understand and study the scriptures. 

I am not saying that everyone has to share my viewpoint.  In fact, I hope that you never lose your faith, especially if it helps you be a good person.  With all my heart, I wish I believed.  It would make things so much easier.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

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Might I add that many Old Testament stories, including those of Esther, Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac, and Joseph's exploits in Egypt, not to mention Adam and Eve in Eden, have the distinct odor of history told through a parabolic, perhaps figurative or at least highly symbolic, lens. The stories of Jonah and Job both read as fantasy scripts, though I assume they were real men. This goes to my discussion in the post above. We must approach the Old Testament especially with caution, because there are many layers of separation of culture, symbolism, and understanding between those people and us many thousands of years later. It doesn't make the literature false; it means we need to be careful of interpretation.

Thank you Vort.  I have thought the same things.

[Just_A_Guy]

A couple of thoughts:

1). The Book of Mormon spoils us. It basically is what Christian fundamentalists want the Bible to be:  specifically tailored to speak to our day, cutting through millennia of cultural differences and 100% dictated by inspiration if not verbatim revelation from God Himself.  The stories it tells are intended to be read more-or-less literally/historically.  And after every vignette that's presented as an object lesson or morality tale, there's faithful old Mormon with his "and thus we see"'s, telling us exactly what the takeaway is supposed to be.

The Bible isn't like that.  It's fraught with culture-specific references, written in places by folks who preferred to see God as an avenger, and sometimes actually throws us things that are *calculated* to disturb us--and then goes silent to let us work out the implications for ourselves.  

It won't spoon feed me, that's for sure.  But as I've really wrestled with it, amazing things can happen.  I am starting to see the Bible, especially the Old Testament, as a literary temple; in comparison to the Book of Mormon's literary Sunday School.

2). In Bible study, I've learned to assume *nothing*.  The JST is an improvement on the KJV--enough so that Joseph Smith called it (or portions of it) "done"--but he never called it perfect or precluded the possibility of tweaking the text later (as he did, in fact, tweak the BoM and the D&C throughout his life).  Scripture headings can and do change.  The Bible Dictionary, as I recall, is basically selections from a non-LDS authored, off-the-rack Bible commentary that the Church obtained permission to edit, supplement, and reproduce to suit its own needs.  Individual LDS leaders' exegises of scriptural passages aren't always right or even authoritative.  These sources are all tremendously helpful; but if I'm looking for a study aid to tell me what to think--I'm doing it wrong.  ?

3). One other possibility:  https://askgramps.org/how-can-i-reconcile-the-message-of-gods-perfect-love-with-accounts-of-wrath-and-brutality/

Edited September 15, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Sunday21]

24 minutes ago, Scott said:

he JST is more than just the footnotes in the latest versions of the Bible.  It is a lot more than that.  The parts of the JST in the latest version of the Bible that us LDS use have been canonized.

I do not think this is true. In any case:

Perhaps, he intended a burnt offering, saw the daughter and kept the idea of sacrifice, as sacrificing a person was: not the custom, abhorrent, not allowed by the priests, and just plain nuts, he sacrificed the daughter's virginity, which WAS the custom of the time.

Again, seriously, this type of argument, tiny details of highly compressed texts written about and by people with very different lifestyles, values and limited understanding, squeezing the last pimple of insight from ancient texts, is how you are going to decide your eternity and whether you will spend eternity with your wife and children? Really?

[Anddenex]

It appears to me that Jephthah vowed what is in our Church manuals, that his daughter would live a life of "virginity" not knowing any man, thus not having any children which ended Jephthah lineage.  The burnt offering appears to be the seal of the vow, not that his daughter was offered as a burnt offering.

 

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Perhaps, he intended a burnt offering, saw the daughter and kept the idea of sacrifice, as sacrificing a person was: not the custom, abhorrent, not allowed by the priests, and just plain nuts, he sacrificed the daughter's virginity, which WAS the custom of the time.

Perhaps, but other than speculation, what is this based on?   That's not what the scripture says, but something similar has been proposed by others, such as Cassel, but it seems more based on rationalization than what the scripture says.   I promise that I have studied it.

Quote

is how you are going to decide your eternity and whether you will spend eternity with your wife and children? Really?

 Why would I want that?   I have said many times that I want to believe.   I want to believe with all my heart.   

I do  not want to disprove the scriptures to anyone.   I just want a testimony of them and to understand the things that I cannot reconcile.  

Anyway, this debate is not what I am after or why I joined this forum.   I am going to write some very personal things in the next posts that will hopefully help people understand where I am coming from. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Scott

[Guest Scott]

I am going to share some very personal information here, so anyone can take it for what it is worth.   I have never shared this information on a public forum.   This is very hard for me to post.

 I do not feel spiritual things.  I have never heard the “spirit whisper in the ear” or felt the “burning in the bosom”.  That does not mean that I don’t want to.  It isn’t for lack of trying.

 I have an extreme, but high functioning version of Asperger’s syndrome, which may explain some personality clicks.

 I can memorize things better than most people can and have about 40% of the Bible memorized.   I know all the characters in the Standard Works and have done much study on all the Church materials I can get my hands on.  

 I still remember lessons and songs being taught when I was a Sunbeam.   From primary remember word for word the song that says “the spirit whispers this to me and tells me it is true”.   I have heard much about the “burning in the bosom”.

 I have been trying for 40 years to feel these things, but it doesn’t seem that I can.  

 I understand this Excel equation perfectly:

 D = SQRT((A1^4*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^4*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)/(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+2*(Z1+G1)*SQRT(A1^2*(COS(L1*PI()/180))^2+B1^2*(SIN(L1*PI()/180))^2)+(Z1+G1)^2) 

In a fraction of a second I can tell you that 6,561 X 6,561 = 43,046,721 in a fraction of a second, just by looking at the number patterns.

 If you tell me the town you live in or grew up in, if it has a weather station I can tell you off the top of my head the average temperature and records for each month.   I have the NWS database memorized.

 I can stand up and recite word for word the book of Genesis and a whole lot of other books from the Standard Works as well.

 All of that is not difficult for me.

 This is what is difficult for me:

 “The Spirit whispers this to me and tells me that it is true”.

 And this:

 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

 Which is preceded by this:

 7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

 I have been trying for 40 years to feel or hear the spirit whisper or for a burning in the bosom.

 Here is what I have tried so far:

 I have tried to study the scriptures and all Church materials (even ones not of our Church).   I have tried to fulfill all church callings.    I have prayed for hours and hours, sometimes in tears all night.  This has lasted for 40 years.

 I have been scoutmaster for many years, Elders Quorum President, Executive Secretary through three Bishops, and have committed no grievous sins, other than perhaps unbelief. 

I help the ward members in every way I can.   I house the missionaries.  I offer my home and even vehicles to anyone in need.   I give whenever I can.   I try to be the best husband and father than I can.  I strive to be a friend to all.   I even once gave away ALL of my money in hopes of fulfilling Matthew 19:21.

 I don’t mention this to brag.   I only mention it to show that I have tried everything that I know of to feel the burning in the bosom or hear the whisper of the spirit.

 I have been longing to hear a whisper or feel a burning in the bosom, or to just feel anything spiritual ever since I was a little kid.

 My attempt to memorize the scriptures was yet another attempt in hopes of feeling the burning or hearing the whisper.

 It doesn’t work for me.   I don’t know if it is because my brain is different from most other people or something else.

 Just because I don’t feel spiritual things, doesn’t mean that I don’t want to.   I want to feel something spiritual.   I want to believe.

 I have tried everything I know how to do in order to believe.  So, how do you believe when you can’t feel anything spiritual or when at least you don’t know how to feel such things.  

 I thought that I could do it by memorizing the scriptures, studying all the Church material that I can, fulfilling my callings, and by service to others.  Everyone (at least as far as I know) thinks that I am the model church member and will soon be Bishop.

 Why would I put so much effort into it if I did not want to believe?   I want to believe it with all my heart.   It would make so much easier.

 I feel however that I am trying or have tried everything that I can.

 I have not asked God for a pillar of fire or a sign that it says we are not supposed to ask for.   I only want to feel, if only for a few seconds anything spiritual and anything like a burning in the bosom or a whisper from the Spirit.

 I have asked my wife what it feel like and she said it feels like a hug.   I know what a hug feels like, but I only feel a hug because she is there.

 So yes, I do earnestly seek an understanding of the scriptures and other spiritual things.   I mentioned the story of Jephthah not because I wanted to prove that the scriptures were flawed, but to point out the things that I struggle with.

 I have deep feelings.   I understand love, and I understand it when I am sad, happy, or frustrated.  I care deeply for others.

 After years of seeking, however, I have never felt anything spiritual and I so much want to feel something like a burning in the bosom or the whisper in the ear by the Spirit.   I have been praying for decades to feel these things.

 Since I don’t feel those things, I try and study (not disprove) as much as I can the scriptures because I understand things like logic, rather than the spiritual.   The problem is that even with sincere prayer I haven’t been able to reconcile with many of the scriptures.

 None of this is for lack of trying.   I have been sincerely seeking and praying for a way to feel Spiritual things.

 If you could not seem to feel those things, how else would you seek for a testimony?  For me it was to try and look at all the scriptures from a logical standpoint.   How would you do it.

 As said, I want more than anything to feel spiritual things rather than to only look at them analytically.  I promise that I have tried.

 Please don’t tell me that I simply have not been sincere enough in my prayers.  I promise you that I have.  Telling me that I’m just under the influence of the Devil or something isn’t helpful either. 

 I promise you that I have been very sincere and diligent in trying to believe.   When you don’t have the feelings that you guys speak of those, how do you do this?  

I feel trapped because I want to believe and since I don't know how to tell others that I don't.   I love my wife very much and going to Church makes her happy.   I love the ward members very much and want to serve them.   I was recently asked to be a counselor in the Bishopric.  I can't say yes and be truthful because I don't have a testimony and can't say so in the interview.   None of this means that I haven't sincerely tried or don't want to believe.      I don't think anyone would chose to go through this.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Scott

[Vort]

13 minutes ago, Scott said:

I do not feel spiritual things.  I have never heard the “spirit whisper in the ear” or felt the “burning in the bosom”.  That does not mean that I don’t want to.  It isn’t for lack of trying.

I believe you, brother. I know and deeply love a young man who says much the same thing as you. He, too, is a faithful Latter-day Saint who lives his religion as best he can. He, too, is strictly honest and highly intelligent (though, as far as I can tell, not Asperger's, high-functioning or otherwise). He has been promised that he would receive revelation if he followed a certain course of action -- promised by men with the keys and authority to make such a promise. And he, too, has never experienced anything he considers a revelation.

Interestingly, we have experienced quite a few things together. One or two of those things I have brought up as testimony moments, but he firmly maintains that he felt nothing in those moments. I literally don't know what to say to such a thing. Were it someone else, I might suspect duplicity -- but not from this man. He is very strictly honest, with himself first and with everyone else, too.

How do we reconcile promises openly made to all people with individual cases where the recognition of revelation seems lacking, if not its very receipt? I do not believe you are deficient, but I have no good answer for you. One possible answer is that you are right and everyone else who has received revelation is simply self-deceived, too credulous or weak-minded to realize they are experiencing only wish fulfillment. But as one who is familiar with both wish fulfillment and true revelation, I reject this. So what's left? Maybe somewhere in early childhood, some people learn to "turn off" a part of their cognition that interferes with their rational processing of what they experience, only that part they "turn off" includes most of how we recognize revelation? I don't know. Maybe. It's a working theory. I don't know how to test it, and I don't know how to resolve it even if it's true.

Perhaps at some point, you just need to pray that God will talk to you in some way that you can understand. I expect you have done this, too. I have found to my chagrin that praying in frustrated earnestness, demanding, begging, and pleading with God to please please PLEASE give me the help I need, doesn't work. I'm doing it wrong, and I don't know how to do it right. So I just keep on doing it, wrong if needed, because it's all I know. I hope and trust that at some point, I'll figure it out. I guess I take the same attitude with what you're experiencing.

[laronius]

@Scott your post made me think of this scripture:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Don't pigeon hole yourself into a way the Spirit needs to communicate with you. God communicates with us in those ways we best understand. Perhaps with your unique set of circumstances God is reaching out to you differently than most. What ever you may lack in the workings of the gift of the Holy Ghost you definitely enjoy the light of Christ in your life, otherwise you would be dead to such things as loving ward members and desires to serve them. Maybe you need to reverse engineer those positive feelings and desires you do have and try to trace them back to their source. Perhaps there you will find your answer.

[JohnsonJones]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

 

38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

Bible Dictionary:

Jephthah 

Judge of Israel; for his history see Judg. 11–12. He is chiefly known for his rash vow, in consequence of which he offered his own daughter in sacrifice. He is commended in Heb. 11:32, probably because of his delivery of Israel from Ammon.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  

The story says that Jephthah offered his daughter as a burnt offering.  Some Biblical scholars, such as Cassel have theorized that the words burnt offering was actually a spiritual sacrifice and one of perpetual virginity.

Actually, it does NOT state he offered his daughter as a burnt offering.  Read it again.  It says he did with her according to his vow which he vowed (as per verse 39) and then specifies how that applied to her (and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, that the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year).

This, as mentioned before, leaves it open.  The clarification implies she was not actually burnt at the stake...whereas without the original implication of that in the first verse in the translation (vs. the original) it could be read that he did.  Hence, in the English translation it could be an either...or.

Either way though, as was explained, it is utilized as a morality story of why one should not make rash vows.  It is also used to explain an Israelite custom and it's origins. 

[zil]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

That's not what the scripture says, .....   I promise that I have studied it.

We know you've studied it.  You've said that umpteen times.  The simple fact is, the story is clearly incomplete, internally inconsistent, and vague.  There is no rational way to come to a certain conclusion about what happened.  One can have an opinion, an interpretation, but not certainty.  Yet you have made up your mind for certain about what happened and reject all alternative interpretations, no matter how much more rational those interpretations may be and even though those interpretations have as much support from the story as yours does.  You also reject all expressions of doubt about the meaning of this scripture, saying the verses leave no room for doubt despite the incomplete, inconsistent, and vague bits of the story.

Do you see a pattern here?

[zil]

8 hours ago, Scott said:

I want to believe.

Belief is not an emotion you feel.  It is a choice you make - seriously, it is a willful suspension / rejection of disbelief, doubt, cynicism.  Faith is acting in hope that what you believe is true and with an expectation of the promised outcome.  IMO (and I have no authority whatsoever so it's worth less than you paid for it), if you keep doing all these good things you have been doing, you will receive the promised reward for so doing - unless, perhaps, you change and do it out of spite, with resentment, and hatred - that will certainly destroy you.

Perhaps @Traveler will have some insight for you - he seems to think the Spirit is more intellectual than a "feeling".

8 hours ago, Scott said:

I only want to feel, if only for a few seconds anything spiritual and anything like a burning in the bosom or a whisper from the Spirit.

I can name exactly one other person who has felt anything they would describe as a burning in the bosom.  (Just saying, I think this sensation is more rare than we might hope.)  The Spirit seems to speak to each of us differently.  Perhaps you should stop trying to experience it how others describe it.  But like @Vort, I don't know how to help you.  If Asperger’s is interfering, I would expect that to end at death (I know, not a lot of hope in that statement - or maybe nothing but hope, depending on how you look at it).

8 hours ago, Scott said:

 I have asked my wife what it feel like and she said it feels like a hug.

I suspect this is symbolic and not literal, though I could be wrong.  Certainly, I've never felt anything like that.  Most of my experiences receiving guidance / answers from the Spirit are thought-based, not emotion or sensation based (in fact, only one answer came as a sensation).

8 hours ago, Scott said:

Since I don’t feel those things, I try and study (not disprove) as much as I can the scriptures because I understand things like logic, rather than the spiritual.   The problem is that even with sincere prayer I haven’t been able to reconcile with many of the scriptures.

Is it logical to expect records of things that humans (the vast majority of whom are highly illogical) did thousands of years ago, to make logical sense?  That seems like an illogical expectation to me.

8 hours ago, Scott said:

 If you could not seem to feel those things, how else would you seek for a testimony?  For me it was to try and look at all the scriptures from a logical standpoint.   How would you do it.

I would first forget about whether the behavior of irrational beings made sense.¹  Then I would apply in my own life the principles taught, observe the consequences of my application, and then judge whether the consequences were mostly good or mostly bad.  Based on observation and evaluation, I would adjust - either recheck my understanding of the principles, adjust my application, etc., and observe.  The instructions say that if I do X, Y, and Z, I'll end up with an IKEA bookshelf.  Did that happen?  No?  Then did I do something wrong, were the instructions wrong, or is this not a bookshelf?  But if I did follow the instructions, and I did end up with an IKEA bookshelf, and I like the bookshelf, then I would call that good.  (Obviously, understanding and applying Gospel principles may not be so simple, but the basic approach seems the same.)

IMO, this is exactly what you've been doing - living the principles and experiencing positive results.  You've reached a point where people who don't know your struggles are asking you to do something you aren't prepared to do.  Counsel with your priesthood leaders about how to handle this experience.  Again, I think it's fully possible that this calling was extended not so that you would serve in it, but so that you don't have to keep struggling in isolation.  Would it not be easier to continue your service with your leaders knowing full well your struggles than hiding those struggles from them?  (I'm not saying it would, I'm asking you to think about the question - you certainly don't have to answer it here - I'm not about to.)  On the other hand, maybe you're fully qualified and prepared to serve - or, if you accept it, the Lord will qualify you.  Maybe you think you are lacking in something that the Lord doesn't think you're lacking in.  This is why you counsel with your leaders - to work together toward understanding.

Please trust me when I tell you that as hard as this is for you, others of us are finding the gospel equally hard, just for different reasons.  All of us have trials.  The question is, will we obey God regardless of those trials, or will we give up.  Believe me, I know how hard it is to keep going when you can't see the point, when you just want to give up.  I also know the truth, so I can't manage to give up (for long).  You'll have to figure out whether the struggle is worth it for you - just don't do it alone.

¹ The scriptures are clearly not about telling complete, rational stories.  The people in them (and the people who recorded them) are human.  Humans behave irrationally.  The point of scripture is to teach us what to do, in whom to trust.  You're going to have to exercise different trust than others might have to (or trust in a different way).

I wish you peace, brother Scott.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Perhaps @Traveler will have some insight for you - he seems to think the Spirit is more intellectual than a "feeling".

I would prefer the word or term enlightening rather than intellectual.  “The Spirit is more enlightening than a feeling”.   It is my belief that the discovery of truth brings about the same “feelings” of enlightenment but perhaps in degrees.  For me the feeling from discovery is excitement.  Sort of a “TA DA!” kind of thing for which I often feel gratitude.  It is not at all like smelling flowers in a field with birds singing.

 

The Traveler