Moses 7:4 and Ether 3:15

[askandanswer]

Moses 7:4

4  And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations.

It’s my understanding that this verse is saying that the Lord showed himself unto to Enoch and that this occurred before the earth was flooded in the days of Noah, and prior to the Lord appearing to the brother of Jared

Ether 3:15
15  And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.  Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image?  Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

I understand this verse to mean that the Lord showed himself unto the brother of Jared and that He told the brother of Jared that He has never shown himself to man before. I believe that this occurred after the flood, and after the Lord had shown himself to Enoch.

There seems to be a discrepancy between these two verses, with one verse saying that the Lord appeared to Enoch, and another verse, later in time, saying that the Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, but telling the brother of Jared that never before has he shown himself to man. Is it the case that there is a discrepancy between these two verses, and if there is a discrepancy, how could it best be reconciled or explained?

[zil]

In the Moses story, it's obvious Enoch was translated transfigured before seeing the Lord.  It's not so obvious with the brother of Jared - though I have a hard time believing he could survive without being translated transfigured, but maybe he could.  Not sure.  I've wondered about this myself, and about the fact that it doesn't seem to have been the Lord making it possible so much as the brother of Jared's faith making it impossible for anything else to happen...  My only other thought is that the Lord's statement could be contextual - as in, there's no one else currently living who had see the Lord...

I suspect this is something we'll have to wait for clarification on after this life.

Edited September 20, 2017 by zil
I knew that, really, I did.

[zil]

PS: Perhaps it's specifically referring to the fact that the Lord will become mortal.

[Vort]

I do not know how to reconcile the two verses. I agree that they appear not to be consistent. One possible resolution is that Enoch and his entire city were taken, and so were not on the Earth, so they somehow "don't count". That seems pretty weak to me, but I don't have anything better.

18 minutes ago, zil said:

In the Moses story, it's obvious Enoch was translated before seeing the Lord.  It's not so obvious with the brother of Jared - though I have a hard time believing he could survive without being translated, but maybe he could.

Enoch said he was "clothed upon with glory", which I interpret to mean he was translated (as you apparently do, too). But Enoch was not translated in order to stand in the presence of a spirit, even that of Jesus Christ; translation is needed only to withstand the presence of a resurrected, glorified being. So there would probably have been no need for Moriancumr to be translated. Enoch was perhaps translated because he was to be in the presence of the Father. Verse 11 gives some small support to this idea, as Enoch was instructed to bear record of the Father.

Summary: I don't think the brother of Jared needed to be translated.

[Colirio]

In the verse in Ether, is "man" being used as terminology for the word "mankind?" 

 

ie. The Lord has not revealed himself to mankind in general. 

 

He doesn't say "any man" or even "a man," but rather uses the term "man." 

[Fether]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Moses 7:4

4  And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations.

It’s my understanding that this verse is saying that the Lord showed himself unto to Enoch and that this occurred before the earth was flooded in the days of Noah, and prior to the Lord appearing to the brother of Jared

Ether 3:15
15  And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.  Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image?  Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

I understand this verse to mean that the Lord showed himself unto the brother of Jared and that He told the brother of Jared that He has never shown himself to man before. I believe that this occurred after the flood, and after the Lord had shown himself to Enoch.

There seems to be a discrepancy between these two verses, with one verse saying that the Lord appeared to Enoch, and another verse, later in time, saying that the Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, but telling the brother of Jared that never before has he shown himself to man. Is it the case that there is a discrepancy between these two verses, and if there is a discrepancy, how could it best be reconciled or explained?

Perhaps Enoch's was a vision and the Brother of Jared's was not?

[Midwest LDS]

I actually have thought about this myself, although I was thinking more of Adam and Eve. Borh of them walked and talked with God, our Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ long before the brother of Jared and I can think of several other instances, including Enoch, where God was physically in front of the ancient prophets. My thoughts on the matter are that the Lord is refering to man after the flood. I'm not aware of another man, post flood, who we are told spoke face to face with God before Moriancumr. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Midwest LDS

[laronius]

I think the key is found in verse 9:

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger.

He apparently saw more than the Lord's spirit body. Somehow he saw evidence of his physical body as well. Then consider verses 16 and 17:

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could not make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he showed himself unto the Nephites.

Not completely sure what this all means but Moroni seems to be pretty adamant in letting us know that what the brother of Jared saw was not simply the Lord's spirit body.

[Anddenex]

The Brother of Jared's experience is similar to Joseph Smith's. In order for Joseph Smith to see God he would have been transfigured, not translated. As to my understanding of translated, this is a change of state. When we are transfigured it is not a permanent state but a state that will allow one to see God (in the flesh) and not die. The Brother of Jared would have been transfigured also.

How often do we read in the Book of Mormon, "This was the greatest war." And then we read again how there was another war and it was greater. How often have I heard friends say, "That was the best sunset ever!" And then again to hear them say at another sunset, "I have never seen such a sunset so great, the best sunset ever!"

At that moment, no one had ever had sufficient faith that they saw the finger of God -- by their faith. Even Joseph's experience is not similar to the Brother of Jared's, although both were brought to pass by great faith. It almost sounds like, Jesus was not intending to reveal himself, but because of the Brother of Jared's faith he saw the finger of the Lord, like no one else before him.

We know other people were brought into the presence of God -- Adam being one of them (after he had been expelled). The Lord is making a witness to that specific event, just as the Lord could have said to Joseph, "No man has ever had such faith that the Father and the Son appeared to him after a single (the very first) vocal prayer." This wouldn't negate the Brother of Jared's experience, or anyone else. This is specific to Joseph, as the experience and witness was specific to the Brother of Jared. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Anddenex

[CV75]

18 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Moses 7:4

4  And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations.

It’s my understanding that this verse is saying that the Lord showed himself unto to Enoch and that this occurred before the earth was flooded in the days of Noah, and prior to the Lord appearing to the brother of Jared

Ether 3:15
15  And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.  Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image?  Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

I understand this verse to mean that the Lord showed himself unto the brother of Jared and that He told the brother of Jared that He has never shown himself to man before. I believe that this occurred after the flood, and after the Lord had shown himself to Enoch.

There seems to be a discrepancy between these two verses, with one verse saying that the Lord appeared to Enoch, and another verse, later in time, saying that the Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, but telling the brother of Jared that never before has he shown himself to man. Is it the case that there is a discrepancy between these two verses, and if there is a discrepancy, how could it best be reconciled or explained?

I think the phrase "such exceeding faith as thou hast" tells us that the Lord never revealed Himself to the same level of fulness to any man before the brother of Jared. He showed the brother of Jared the body of His spirit, or as he will appear in the flesh, and performing a physical act (touching the stones). It seems that Moses only saw the Lord in vision (he beheld the heavens open), while the brother of Jared saw Him in actuality, touching the telestial-level, material stones with His finger. Moses was taken up to the Lord and clothed with glory while the Lord came down into the world of the brother of Jared, or through the veil from His world into ours.

Edited September 20, 2017 by CV75

[CV75]

31 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

The Brother of Jared's experience is similar to Joseph Smith's. In order for Joseph Smith to see God he would have been transfigured, not translated. As to my understanding of translated, this is a change of state. When we are transfigured it is not a permanent state but a state that will allow one to see God (in the flesh) and not die. The Brother of Jared would have been transfigured also.

How often do we read in the Book of Mormon, "This was the greatest war." And then we read again how there was another war and it was greater. How often have I heard friends say, "That was the best sunset ever!" And then again to hear them say at another sunset, "I have never seen such a sunset so great, the best sunset ever!"

At that moment, no one had ever had sufficient faith that they saw the finger of God -- by their faith. Even Joseph's experience is not similar to the Brother of Jared's, although both were brought to pass my great faith. It almost sounds like, Jesus was not intending to reveal himself, but because of the Brother of Jared's face he saw the finger of the Lord, like no one else before him.

We know other people were brought into the presence of God -- Adam being one of them (after he had been expelled). The Lord is making a witness to that specific event, just as the Lord could have said to Joseph, "No man has ever had such faith that the Father and the Son appeared to him after a single (the very first) vocal prayer." This wouldn't negate the Brother of Jared's experience, or anyone else. This is specific to Joseph, as the experience and witness was specific to the Brother of Jared. 

The Lord spoke with Adam face to face only before the Fall -- after that, through angels or His voice or perhaps in vision ("they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence" -- Moses 5:4-6). The Lord spoke with Moses, and apparently other prophets, in vision (my comment above) before His condescension into the flesh for His mortal ministry. After His resurrection, some see Him in vision (Stephen) and others see Him in the resurrected flesh (the original disciples). Joseph Smith saw Him in both manifestations -- in a vision (D&C 76) and in the flesh (First Vision). The brother of Jared was unique for his day and age because he saw the Lord in the spirit body, on this earth.

Edited September 20, 2017 by CV75

[Anddenex]

36 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The Lord spoke with Adam face to face only before the Fall -- after that, through angels or His voice or perhaps in vision ("they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence" -- Moses 5:4-6).

The Lord spoke with Adam face to face even after the Fall. The reference below is one experience. I personally believe this wasn't the first time after the Fall that the Lord appeared to Adam. Adam had absolute knowledge, not faith, that God and Jesus Christ were real. How would he be kept behind a veil the whole time after the garden of Eden? He knew. The veil would not keep him as he continued in the path of righteousness.

"Three years prior to his death, Adam gathered his righteous posterity together in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman (the place where he and Eve had settled after their expulsion from Eden¹⁵ ). Seven generations of faithful patriarchs and their families met to receive prophetic counsel. There Adam bestowed upon them his last blessing. In describing a vision he had of this sacred occasion, the Prophet Joseph said: “I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation. This is why Adam blessed his posterity; he wanted to bring them into the presence of God.” (Source) (emphasis added)

Also note, all seven generations of patriarchs were in attendance at this meeting by which the Lord appeared in their midst.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Anddenex

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

The Lord spoke with Adam face to face even after the Fall. The reference below is one experience. I personally believe this wasn't the first time after the Fall that the Lord appeared to Adam. Adam had absolute knowledge, not faith, that God and Jesus Christ were real. How would he be kept behind a veil the whole time after the garden of Eden? He knew. The veil would not keep him as he continued in the path of righteousness.

"Three years prior to his death, Adam gathered his righteous posterity together in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman (the place where he and Eve had settled after their expulsion from Eden¹⁵ ). Seven generations of faithful patriarchs and their families met to receive prophetic counsel. There Adam bestowed upon them his last blessing. In describing a vision he had of this sacred occasion, the Prophet Joseph said: “I saw Adam in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He called together his children and blessed them with a patriarchal blessing. The Lord appeared in their midst, and he (Adam) blessed them all, and foretold what should befall them to the latest generation. This is why Adam blessed his posterity; he wanted to bring them into the presence of God.” (Source) (emphasis added)

Also note, all seven generations of patriarchs were in attendance at this meeting by which the Lord appeared in their midst.

Yes, excellent point. The difference I see is that Adam is bringing himself and others into the Lord's presence while the Lord brought Himself into the brother of Jared's presence: He showed Himself to the brother of Jared, and that only after the veil was taken off the brother of Jared's eyes, so great was his faith. A subtle difference in protocol perhaps, but quite a significant difference in the faith expressed and involved. This may be due, in part, because the brother of Jared did not have seven generations of living covenant community nor the personal association with father of the human race to bolster his faith, as Adam's posterity did in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman.

Edit: another difference is that the events in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman were planned and very intentional; the brother of Jared's experience was quite spontaneous, and an unexpected fruit of his faith.

Edited September 20, 2017 by CV75

[Anddenex]

48 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, excellent point. The difference I see is that Adam is bringing himself and others into the Lord's presence while the Lord brought Himself into the brother of Jared's presence: He showed Himself to the brother of Jared, and that only after the veil was taken off the brother of Jared's eyes, so great was his faith. A subtle difference in protocol perhaps, but quite a significant difference in the faith expressed and involved. This may be due, in part, because the brother of Jared did not have seven generations of living covenant community nor the personal association with father of the human race to bolster his faith, as Adam's posterity did in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman.

Edit: another difference is that the events in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman were planned and very intentional; the brother of Jared's experience was quite spontaneous, and an unexpected fruit of his faith.

We agree pertaining to the Brother of Jared, from my original response to the OP, "At that moment, no one had ever had sufficient faith that they saw the finger of God -- by their faith. Even Joseph's experience is not similar to the Brother of Jared's, although both were brought to pass by great faith. It almost sounds like, Jesus was not intending to reveal himself, but because of the Brother of Jared's faith he saw the finger of the Lord, like no one else before him."

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

We agree pertaining to the Brother of Jared, from my original response to the OP, "At that moment, no one had ever had sufficient faith that they saw the finger of God -- by their faith. Even Joseph's experience is not similar to the Brother of Jared's, although both were brought to pass by great faith. It almost sounds like, Jesus was not intending to reveal himself, but because of the Brother of Jared's faith he saw the finger of the Lord, like no one else before him."

 

Yes, that's how I see it. The event was in fulfillment of compliance with eternal law. A similar thing happened when the woman's faith drew upon His power by touching the hem of His garment (she was healed and then He acknowledged what law had been kept to accomplish her healing). It seems there is a threshold of faith which  permits a person to reap a blessing from Him outside the foreordained plan. This to me conveys the power of agency, and how the foreordination can be accelerated by faith as well as delayed through disobedience.

[james12]

Jeffery R. Holland reviewed this question in significant detail in his book "Christ and the New Covenant". Here is some of what he said:  

Quote

“One possibility is that this is simply a comment made in the context of one dispensation and as such applies only to the people of Jared and Jaredite prophets—that Jehovah had never before revealed himself to one of their seers and revelators. …

“Another suggestion is that the reference to ‘man’ is the key to this passage, suggesting that the Lord had never revealed himself to the unsanctified, to the nonbeliever, to temporal, earthy, natural man. The implication is that only those who have put off the natural man [and are] sanctified (such as Adam, Enoch, and now the brother of Jared)—are entitled to this privilege [see D&C 67:10–11].

“Some believe that the Lord meant he had never before revealed himself to man in that degree or to that extent. This theory suggests that divine appearances to earlier prophets had not been with the same ‘fulness,’ that never before had the veil been lifted to give such a complete revelation of Christ’s nature and being.

“A further possibility is that this is the first time Jehovah had appeared and identified himself as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with the interpretation of the passage being ‘never have I showed myself [as Jesus Christ] unto man whom I have created.’ That possibility is reinforced by one way of reading Moroni’s later editorial comment: ‘Having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus.’

“Yet another interpretation of this passage is that the faith of the brother of Jared was so great he saw not only the spirit finger and body of the premortal Jesus (which presumably many other prophets had also seen) but also some distinctly more revealing aspect of Christ’s body of flesh, blood, and bone. …

“A final explanation—and in terms of the brother of Jared’s faith the most persuasive one—is that Christ was saying to the brother of Jared, ‘Never have I showed myself unto man in this manner, without my volition, driven solely by the faith of the beholder.’ As a rule, prophets are invited into the presence of the Lord, are bidden to enter his presence by him and only with his sanction. The brother of Jared, on the other hand, seems to have thrust himself through the veil, not as an unwelcome guest but perhaps technically as an uninvited one. Said Jehovah, ‘Never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. … Never has man believed in me as thou hast.’ Obviously the Lord himself was linking unprecedented faith with this unprecedented vision. If the vision itself was not unique, then it had to be the faith and how the vision was obtained that was so unparalleled. The only way that faith could be so remarkable was its ability to take the prophet, uninvited, where others had been able to go only with God’s bidding” (Christ and the New Covenant, 21–23).

The entire first four chapters of Either can be seen as a guide to gaining faith a rending the veil. First the brother of Jared hears the Lord, he then sees him in a cloud, he finally sees his finger and then his entire body. Because of his faith and the promises the Lord has made to him he cannot be kept within the veil. We are invited to do the same. Moroni quoting the Lord says, "Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel." (Ether 4:15). 

[askandanswer]

Thank you @james12 this is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I didn't know the answer to the question I posted. Thanks to you, now I do. I'll have to go and look this reference up so I can learn more. 

[skalenfehl]

James, the entire 4th chapter of Ether is significant, or at the very least, vs 7-15. Your analysis hits the nail squarely on the head.