Tattoos and Other Things We Could Use More of at Church

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I want more money to build Gods kingdom....

Vs. I want more money to have a more luxurious lifestyle...

Is my income justified if even a part of it comes from an industry that destroys lives?

A case in point- I knew a man that made his living off fixing air conditioners for casinos in Las Vegas. At some point, is his income justified because he can turn a blind eye to the fact his paychecks are coming from the industry that causes families to be destroyed?

IMHO, I don't see anything wrong with this as his business is air conditioners, not casinos. This to me also is a perfect scenario where a business owner should be able to say no to prospective business also without any retribution from person/business seeking their services.

Now, if the individual was the actual casino owner, my statement applies previously with distributing porn.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I want more money to build Gods kingdom....

Brigham Young had no shortage of condemnation for this exact thinking.  Apparently, it was a problem back then - lots of men saying they were gonna go get lots of money so they'd have more to offer.  Brigham Young's answer was along the lines of, serve the Lord first and if he wants you to have money to facilitate that, he'll see to it.  I tend to agree with Brigham Young - go to work first, let the blessings of work follow.

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, zil said:

Brigham Young had no shortage of condemnation for this exact thinking.  Apparently, it was a problem back then - lots of men saying they were gonna go get lots of money so they'd have more to offer.  Brigham Young's answer was along the lines of, serve the Lord first and if he wants you to have money to facilitate that, he'll see to it.  I tend to agree with Brigham Young - go to work first, let the blessings of work follow.

My personal belief with income is that if we are blessed with an addition of income we are to use it solely for building Gods kingdom. The sad part, and it truly effects all of us in some degree, is that we are blinded by money to believe that the addition of wealth is a blessing to have a more luxurious lifestyle.

[Rob Osborn]

28 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

IMHO, I don't see anything wrong with this as his business is air conditioners, not casinos. This to me also is a perfect scenario where a business owner should be able to say no to prospective business also without any retribution from person/business seeking their services.

Now, if the individual was the actual casino owner, my statement applies previously with distributing porn.

So, lets say he is financially struggling and he the prays to God that his business will grow. Will God cause more fathers and mothers to use more of their paychecks to gamble with and watch dancing shows so that the casino will have the added income to pay him to work on more of the maintainance of their AC units?

In our own family run business we have turned down work from individuals whose income is not legal, ethical, or godly. We feel that God sends us honest income earners.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Rob Osborn

[Guest MormonGator]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, lets say he is financially struggling and he the prays to God that his business will grow. Will God cause more fathers and mothers to use more of their paychecks to gamble with and watch dancing shows so that the casino will have the added income to pay him to work on more of the maintainance of their AC units?

In our own family run business we have turned down work from individuals whose income is not legal, ethical, or godly. We feel that God sends us honest income earners.

I wouldn't install air conditioners in private homes either. Installing an air conditioner in their home would make them stay home more and maybe watch an R rated movie in there. Installing air conditioning units is gravely sinful. 

Edited October 31, 2017 by MormonGator

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, zil said:

So you say, and yet you're incapable of detaching it from tobacco when I didn't attach it to tobacco in the first place.  Indeed, I detached it from tobacco in the first place and abstracted it into a generic concept.  You write as if you think I want to hunt down your tobacco-farming friend and burn and salt his fields and curse him and his to hell for all eternity.  But that's something you created out of pure (erroneous) assumption and then used to condemn my (made up) lack of understanding, compassion, and acceptance of others (while implying you possess these virtues I lack).

I'm perfectly content to have your tobacco-farming friend continue growing tobacco.

You also write as if I want to do all that because of my membership in the Church and belief in the Word of Wisdom.  Those would be the very reasons not to want those things.  Indeed, those would be good reasons to support your tobacco-farming friend in his choice to grow whatever crop he chooses.

Did I mention I'm perfectly content to have your tobacco-farming friend continue growing tobacco?

My comments were never about tobacco or your friend or your own career choices.  They were about a claim that more money in and of itself justifies a choice, abstracted into a general principle which I find is not supported by reality or scripture.  From Moses 5:

(see also the entire Book of Mormon)  ...which does NOT mean I think tobacco farmers are murderers for financial gain, it means that I think "more money justifies my choice" is the same "logic" Cain used, and that it's a dangerous thing to believe.

Would it surprise you to know that I doubt your tobacco-growing friend, or you, made your choices thinking solely that money was the justification for them?  You see, I abstracted a comment attributed to your tobacco-growing friend, rephrased it into a principle or concept, and commented on *that*, not on tobacco, not on your friend, not on you.  But you were too busy condemning me for unfairly applying the Word of Wisdom that you apparently missed it.

If this isn't clear by now, let's all agree to drop it.

If someone wants to know what I think of tobacco-growing and why I think that (hint, the WoW has nothing to do with it [oh my, how can a Mormon say such a thing!?]), feel free to ask.

Okay - now I am confused and do not understand your point - you are saying that any choice or desire to make more money is evil?  Or if someone is offered two different jobs and the ony difference is the abount of money offered - is a sin to take the offer that pays more money.  If someone is selling their house and someone offers more for the house than someone else that taking the more money offer just because there is more money - that is evil?   I thought I understood your thought but now I am not so sure - as I understand you believe that when ever someone make a decision that allows them to have more money - and that is the only facter - it is evil?  To bargan over price - is evil?

 

The Traveler

 

 

[zil]

Just now, Traveler said:

Okay - now I am confused and do not understand your point - you are saying that any choice or desire to make more money is evil?  Or if someone is offered two different jobs and the ony difference is the abount of money offered - is a sin to take the offer that pays more money.  If someone is selling their house and someone offers more for the house than someone else that taking the more money offer just because there is more money - that is evil?   I thought I understood your thought but now I am not so sure - as I understand you believe that when ever someone make a decision that allows them to have more money - and that is the only facter - it is evil?  To bargan over price - is evil?

Keep reading.  I believe a future post clarifies this.  If you've read all the rest and still don't understand, let me know.

[omegaseamaster75]

30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My personal belief with income is that if we are blessed with an addition of income we are to use it solely for building Gods kingdom. The sad part, and it truly effects all of us in some degree, is that we are blinded by money to believe that the addition of wealth is a blessing to have a more luxurious lifestyle.

You make it seem like being successful is a sin if you live a better lifestyle than others and that your excess should go only to the betterment of the kingdom of God. While I think that someday we will live the law of consecration that day is not today.

How do you feel about out church leaders many of whom are very wealthy and live what some would consider to be opulent lifestyles?

 

[zil]

33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

My personal belief with income is that if we are blessed with an addition of income we are to use it solely for building Gods kingdom. The sad part, and it truly effects all of us in some degree, is that we are blinded by money to believe that the addition of wealth is a blessing to have a more luxurious lifestyle.

I should clarify that from what I can tell, these men wanted to go off and make a fortune (gold rush and what-not) first, while not serving in the Church in any way, and then, after they were rich, they would come back and have lots of time and money for Church service...  So it wasn't a scenario of earning a lot in their day job while also serving.  Apparently they missed the sequence of events in the Book of Mormon.

[Anddenex]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, lets say he is financially struggling and he the prays to God that his business will grow. Will God cause more fathers and mothers to use more of their paychecks to gamble with and watch dancing shows so that the casino will have the added income to pay him to work on more of the maintainance of their AC units?

In our own family run business we have turned down work from individuals whose income is not legal, ethical, or godly. We feel that God sends us honest income earners.

As to first question, no. All things which are good come from God. God doesn't inspire a father or mother to gamble their paychecks (that is Satan's work). Could he inspire the casino owner to use his services -- yes -- God very well could.

In your own family business I would say that is commendable; however, how then would you interpret the Christian baker who denied a particular service? If God only sent "honest" income earners you would never have had to turn down work from potential income that is not legal, ethical, or godly.

Opposition is still a principle in business, and one way righteousness is brought to pass.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, zil said:

 

(Feel free to now accuse me of finding fault with people who take a better-paying job in order to better provide for their families, since that's not what I did.)

From your examples - the problem is not money.  I am getting the impression that what you really mean is that motive is what is important - that money (be it more or less money) had nothing to do with your concern.   If this is the case - then I agree but I thought that your initial point was any choice for more money (all other things being equal) was evil.  Now you seem to be saying that if there was a evil motive (that has nothing to money) that is the problem.

As I understand money is not a problem but the love of money and when someone loves money especiall more that people.

I may not understand and so I as questions.  Perhaps I am blind.  But right now I do not know what the single point is.

Will someone please explain to me what is wrong with money without bringing something else into the discussion.  If there is something other than money - then I understand - but money with no other consideration - I do not understand.  Sorry I am so upside down on this point.  What exactly is the problem?  It appears to me the explanation always takse us away from money to some other point?????

 

The Traveler

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

As I understand money is not a problem but the love of money and when someone loves money especiall more that people.

Exactly. When someone says "more money (per se, in and of itself, without regard for anything else) justifies my choice (e.g. to kill Abel)", money is the motive, money is what they love, not some good thing money can enable.  It was always about motive - the justification, the excuse we use to explain away our actions, our reason for acting - motive.

I can only assume you were trying to look at this from the perspective of a moral, ethical person, and therefore couldn't comprehend the idea of doing something strictly for the money, literally without regard for anything else.

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

.  It was always about motive - the justification, the excuse we use to explain away our actions, our reason for acting - motive.

Strictly devils advocate- I'm a multi millionaire @zil. The local hospital asks me to build the "Gator wing" for sick children. I do it, but my motive is strictly glory. I want my name in the paper. I want people to shake my hand and talk about how wonderful I am. I want people to look at me and say "Boy, is Gator awesome." Should I have told the hospital "No, I can't do it because my motives are evil." or are motives sometimes irrelevant?  

[zil]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Strictly devils advocate- I'm a multi millionaire @zil. The local hospital asks me to build the "Gator wing" for sick children. I do it, but my motive is strictly glory. I want my name in the paper. I want people to shake my hand and talk about how wonderful I am. I want people to look at me and say "Boy, is Gator awesome." Should I have told the hospital "No, I can't do it because my motives are evil." or are motives sometimes irrelevant?  

I never said to do the thing or not.  I said the motive is, in and of itself, wrong, possibly evil, corrupting; that the person who acts with these motives in their heart is in a dangerous place; that they will probably act in less and less worthy ways until / unless they change their heart, and that unless they rid themselves of such things, it will lead to their destruction.

Christ himself in scripture condemned those who had done good works.  Why?  Because of their hearts.

Edited October 31, 2017 by zil

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, zil said:

I never said to do the thing or not.  I said the motive is, in and of itself, wrong, possibly evil, corrupting.  That the person who acts with these motives in their heart is in a dangerous place.  That they will probably act in less and less worthy ways until / unless they change their heart, and that unless they rid themselves of such things, it will lead to their destruction.

Christ himself in scripture condemned those who had done good works.  Why?  Because of their hearts.

Dangerous place, for sure. But the person who is sick in the new wing doesn't care about the motives of the person who funded the building. If the bishop asks me to clean up a house because of hurricane damage what should I do? Wait until my heart is in the right place or just do it, even though my motivation isn't to help-it's to get the bishop to stop calling me and leave me alone? 

Again, all hypothetical.

[Vort]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Dangerous place, for sure. But the person who is sick in the new wing doesn't care about the motives of the person who funded the building. If the bishop asks me to clean up a house because of hurricane damage what should I do? Wait until my heart is in the right place or just do it, even though my motivation isn't to help-it's to get the bishop to stop calling me and leave me alone? 

Again, all hypothetical.

The point is not that you should wait to act, MG. The point is that we are to become like him whom we worship.

If you build a hospital wing with your riches because you want the glory of man, then you have your reward. If you refuse to build the hospital wing at all despite your riches, then you will certainly have the reward fitting to your inaction. But if you want to avoid the reward of selfishness and merit a greater reward than the honor of men, put your heart in the right place when you build the hospital wing, and great will be your riches in heaven, where moth and rust do not corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

The point is not that you should wait to act, MG. The point is that we are to become like him whom we worship.

If you build a hospital wing with your riches because you want the glory of man, then you have your reward. If you refuse to build the hospital wing at all despite your riches, then you will certainly have the reward fitting to your inaction. But if you want to avoid the reward of selfishness and merit a greater reward than the honor of men, put your heart in the right place when you build the hospital wing, and great will be your riches in heaven, where moth and rust do not corrupt, and where thieves do not break through and steal.

First off, it's all hypothetical and I'm at least partially "arguing" a point I don't fully agree with. I made that clear by saying "Devils advocate" 

Yes, you should act. That's the bottom line for me. Your heart is between you and God because no mortal can truly read your motivations or your level of caring/compassion/etc 

It would be nice if humans were motivated by love, cuddles, hearts and flowers (and some people might be) but the world is a more complicated place than that. 

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Why hope when you can deliberately take action to ensure you don't have to choose between something immoral and food on the table?  There are careers that present more risk than others, there are locations which present more risk than others, there are behaviors which put you, your finances, your property at more risk than others.  Simply choose to stay away from the risky stuff.  Interestingly, Church teachings, if followed, reduce all these risks - don't choose a job in / around an industry which violates standards, don't choose a job which requires Sunday work, get your year's storage, get out of debt, live a healthy lifestyle (WoW, chastity, etc.).  Do these things, and you're less likely to be "forced" into choosing between immorality and food.

I have found ways to have less risk of doing so (how many historians do you know that go around growing tobacco and such?), but one never knows what the future holds.  It seems to me that many who swear to do something soon thereafter have the adversary attack and at times the very thing they swore not to do is the only path they have to feed themselves or any number of other terrible choices.  There are members in my ward that would not want to work Sundays, or would prefer to do something other than what they are doing, but it is the only way they can currently get any money to put food on the table or any other sort of thing.  I am not the Lord, I will condemn no man or woman for what they have to do in order to survive.  I'll leave that up to the Lord...for all I know, I'm in more trouble than they ever will be. 

For all I know, tomorrow I'll be out of work and no one would hire me...what would I do then? I don't know what the future holds and so will avoid bringing in the greater temptation by vocally stating something that could be utilized by the adversary against me.  Instead, I'll do my best to do what's right, and strive to be the best individual I can.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

For all I know, tomorrow I'll be out of work and no one would hire me...what would I do then?

Porn. It's decided.

[JohnsonJones]

Since we bring up gambling...let's use another real world example, once again our beloved friend Marriott.

Marriott resort and stellaris casino

Aruba Marriott resort and stellaris casino

St. Kitts Marriott resort and the royal beach casino

As a note, Marriott has done great things for the church and it's leaders with the wealth that he and his father have gained. 

Something more to contemplate for any who have problems with the Marriotts...this is small change to what some other General Authorities have been engaged in at times, up to and including some apostles.  However, I think this is a hard thing for some to tackle, and instead of seeing it as a way to strengthen their testimony, it may do the opposite.  As such, this is about as far as I'm going to use for an example, because if I went with General authorities that are a little more seen within the church, it may do more harm than good.

So why do I post these examples?  We need to divide what is actual doctrine, from LDS culture and traditions.  I am very LDS in my culture and traditions, but I have no problems with the Marriotts or what they've done.  It is up to the church leadership and the Lord in regards to individuals. 

[JohnsonJones]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Porn. It's decided.

I would hope not.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Since we bring up gambling...let's use another real world example, once again our beloved friend Marriott.

Marriott resort and stellaris casino

Aruba Marriott resort and stellaris casino

St. Kitts Marriott resort and the royal beach casino

As a note, Marriott has done great things for the church and it's leaders with the wealth that he and his father have gained. 

Something more to contemplate for any who have problems with the Marriotts...this is small change to what some other General Authorities have been engaged in at times, up to and including some apostles.  However, I think this is a hard thing for some to tackle, and instead of seeing it as a way to strengthen their testimony, it may do the opposite.  As such, this is about as far as I'm going to use for an example, because if I went with General authorities that are a little more seen within the church, it may do more harm than good.

So why do I post these examples?  We need to divide what is actual doctrine, from LDS culture and traditions.  I am very LDS in my culture and traditions, but I have no problems with the Marriotts or what they've done.  It is up to the church leadership and the Lord in regards to individuals. 

Good point. I stayed at a Marriott for two weeks once. It had a bar in it. 

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

So why do I post these examples?  We need to divide what is actual doctrine, from LDS culture and traditions.  I am very LDS in my culture and traditions, but I have no problems with the Marriotts or what they've done.  It is up to the church leadership and the Lord in regards to individuals. 

So what do you think is "doctrine" and what do you dismiss as mere "culture"?

[The Folk Prophet]

Clearly destroying the souls of others for profit is merely a cultural matter.

[JohnsonJones]

35 minutes ago, Vort said:

So what do you think is "doctrine" and what do you dismiss as mere "culture"?

What does it say in the Scriptures.  In regards to tobacco and alcohol, what does it say in Section 89?  That's doctrine.

Vs. our own opinions on what we should or should not do, including whether we work at a restaurant that may sell alcohol, are a hotel manager, or any other sort of thing where we may brush up against traditional ideas rather than reality of what one has to do to make a living.

 

(To be perfectly clear, in some ways the church tends to be more lax on these ideas than they were 50 years ago.  In a similar manner, Spencer W. Kimball himself spoke out against caffeinated drinks, as opposed to today where, as we've seen recently, BYU is now serving them.  I personally am very much a cultural Mormon in this aspect, and do NOT drink caffeinated drinks...however I see this as my own personal opinions and the LDS culture and traditions more than anything with the reality of LDS doctrine today).

Edited October 31, 2017 by JohnsonJones