This is why people leave

[Guest]

I just heard about a recent convert in our ward who had gone inactive.  Our ward mission leader reached out to him to see what was going on.  He asked if we had offended him or anything.

"Nope.  I've got nothing but good things to say about you Mormons."

The WML caught that last couple of words and asked if he didn't feel welcomed to the ward properly.  As it turns out, no.  He said we had all reached out to him a hand of fellowship and we made him always feel welcome.  He was happy to have been treated so well.

So, what was the deal?

He didn't feel like he fit in because nearly everyone in the ward was so accomplished.  He felt like he didn't know very much compared to everyone else.  Many people were tremendous successes in their careers.  Many owned/ran thriving businesses.  Everyone seemed so well educated.  He didn't realize that he also had a very successful career.  He had gained a lot of knowledge that others wish they had.  But he had more street smarts.  We need a person with a lot of street smarts.  We tried letting him know that. But he still just didn't feel like he belonged no matter how kind and accepting we were.

The thing is that he did feel the Spirit.  He did know the Church was true.  He knew the Book of Mormon was true.  But he was very old.  And he still didn't see how going to one church was different than going to another.  What a sad tragedy.

[Guest]

Another convert a couple years ago left shortly after baptism simply because he missed the "upbeat" music at his old church.  He just didn't feel right with old-fashioned hymns.  So, he left.

How sad is that?  He felt the Spirit tell him he had found the truth.  The Book of Mormon was true.  We have a living prophet.  We have the truth that is not found elsewhere.  He knew all this.  But he abandoned it all because he saw church attendance as a place to be entertained more than spiritually fed.

SMH.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

he missed the "upbeat" music at his old church.   

I keep telling my bishop to play the Ramones during sacrament meeting, but he isn't cool with it. :: sigh :: 

[Guest]

I just caught this old thread

Amazing.

In our ward, we have six adult pianists that we know of.  One is assigned to the Primary.  One to the Choir.  One does not play.  The other three are split on the Organ.  Yes, only three people in the ward can play the organ. 

The official organist is certainly the most talented and well trained.  But she's being overloaded at work right now so, she's asked to take a hiatus.  The two men are filling in for her, but she is not officially released. 

Apparently she was just too good at her work.  Her office wants to promote her.  But they can't find a replacement at her old job yet.  So, she's doing two jobs -- with a big bonus, BTW. But she just set some limits and asked for a break.  She's got it.

It really makes me wonder why people leave.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I just caught this old thread

Amazing.

In our ward, we have six adult pianists that we know of.  One is assigned to the Primary.  One to the Choir.  One does not play.  The other three are split on the Organ.  Yes, only three people in the ward can play the organ. 

The official organist is certainly the most talented and well trained.  But she's being overloaded at work right now so, she's asked to take a hiatus.  The two men are filling in for her, but she is not officially released. 

Apparently she was just too good at her work.  Her office wants to promote her.  But they can't find a replacement at her old job yet.  So, she's doing two jobs -- with a big bonus, BTW. But she just set some limits and asked for a break.  She's got it.

It really makes me wonder why people leave.

My ward in the Philippines had 1 person who knows how to play the piano.  She's not the pianist.  She's in the RS Presidency and they try not to give anybody 2 callings over there.  But what she's doing - not as a calling but the RS took it on as their project - was to give piano lessons to anybody wanting to play in Sacrament meeting.  One  Sunday I was there, the person who played the piano played with only the right hand.  That's as far as she got with her lessons - learn the melody of 3 hymns.  My son, who was 11 years old at that time and was twice bigger than the biggest primary kid, was invited to attend Sunday school and Priesthood quorum with the deacons and he played the piano in Priesthood the whole time we were there.

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by anatess2

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/12/2018 at 2:32 PM, Carborendum said:

Another convert a couple years ago left shortly after baptism simply because he missed the "upbeat" music at his old church.  He just didn't feel right with old-fashioned hymns.  So, he left.

How sad is that?  He felt the Spirit tell him he had found the truth.  The Book of Mormon was true.  We have a living prophet.  We have the truth that is not found elsewhere.  He knew all this.  But he abandoned it all because he saw church attendance as a place to be entertained more than spiritually fed.

A fine distinguishment between testimony and faith.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

A fine distinguishment between testimony and faith.

Expound a bit.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Expound a bit.

Having a testimony (a witness from the Spirit of the truth) does not mean you have faith. Faith is a choice and must be exercised as a choice. Testimony is giving in response to exercising some level of faith, of course, but once one has a witness they have that witness. It just is. It's not about choice. Losing a testimony is really a false ideal. You can't lose a testimony. You can deny it. But if you have been witness to something you have been witness to it. Denying it doesn't change the reality that you were witness. But faith you can lose, if you so choose.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Having a testimony (a witness from the Spirit of the truth) does not mean you have faith. Faith is a choice and must be exercised as a choice. Testimony is giving in response to exercising some level of faith, of course, but once one has a witness they have that witness. It just is. It's not about choice. Losing a testimony is really a false ideal. You can't lose a testimony. You can deny it. But if you have been witness to something you have been witness to it. Denying it doesn't change the reality that you were witness. But faith you can lose, if you so choose.

So, testimony is having had a witness.  Faith is the motivating power to repentance and reliance on the Word, and continuance on the path.  That's pretty good.  That does describe many who have had a witness, but do not continue "just because".

Edited March 14, 2018 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

So, testimony is having had a witness. 

That's the literal meaning of testimony, right? So makes sense to me. I know the term is used more broadly than that in the church. But I think it's because people conflate the idea with faith (understandably based on the way we speak of it in terms of "lost his testimony" and the like).

[bytebear]

On 3/14/2018 at 10:37 AM, Carborendum said:

I just caught this old thread

Amazing.

In our ward, we have six adult pianists that we know of.  One is assigned to the Primary.  One to the Choir.  One does not play.  The other three are split on the Organ.  Yes, only three people in the ward can play the organ. 

The official organist is certainly the most talented and well trained.  But she's being overloaded at work right now so, she's asked to take a hiatus.  The two men are filling in for her, but she is not officially released. 

Apparently she was just too good at her work.  Her office wants to promote her.  But they can't find a replacement at her old job yet.  So, she's doing two jobs -- with a big bonus, BTW. But she just set some limits and asked for a break.  She's got it.

It really makes me wonder why people leave.

Funny you talk about paid musicians.  I have a friend who plays the Oboe professionally, and travels the world at various gigs.  He played the Christmas program for years at a very well known mega church (now defunct).  I was so used to our volunteerism that it didn't even occur to me that a mega church would not only hire musicians, but not even care about their religious affiliation.  They were just paid staff.

[The Folk Prophet]

For some reason this thread puts me in mind of the parable of the sower.

3 ... Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

...

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

[askandanswer]

On 15/03/2018 at 4:37 AM, Carborendum said:

I just caught this old thread

Amazing.

In our ward, we have six adult pianists that we know of.  One is assigned to the Primary.  One to the Choir.  One does not play.  The other three are split on the Organ.  Yes, only three people in the ward can play the organ. 

The official organist is certainly the most talented and well trained.  But she's being overloaded at work right now so, she's asked to take a hiatus.  The two men are filling in for her, but she is not officially released. 

Apparently she was just too good at her work.  Her office wants to promote her.  But they can't find a replacement at her old job yet.  So, she's doing two jobs -- with a big bonus, BTW. But she just set some limits and asked for a break.  She's got it.

It really makes me wonder why people leave.

My mum has been either the ward organist or the ward chorister for over half a century in the same chapel. She's a third or fourth generation church organist but the first generation to serve as an LDS organist. She's shifted wards a few times but that's because the boundaries change, not because she's moved. And for all of that time, she's worked with the same partner. For the first four decades mum was the organist and her close friend was the chorister, but for some reason, mum is now the chorister and her friend is now the organist. The friend is also the 82 or 84 year old RSP and works in the temple once a week and she has at least as much energy as someone half her age. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The friend is also the 82 or 84 year old RSP and works in the temple once a week and she has at least as much energy as someone half her age. 

They say that the waving of the arms is an effective form of exercise.

They also say that the fulfillment of getting a whole bunch of people to do as you wish with a wave of a hand creates endorphines that extend life.

[askandanswer]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

They say that the waving of the arms is an effective form of exercise.

They also say that the fulfillment of getting a whole bunch of people to do as you wish with a wave of a hand creates endorphines that extend life.

Ummmm, I'm vicariously waving my arms. Where are my endorphines? This is not working for me.

Edited March 20, 2018 by askandanswer

[anatess2]

On 3/17/2018 at 12:14 AM, bytebear said:

Funny you talk about paid musicians.  I have a friend who plays the Oboe professionally, and travels the world at various gigs.  He played the Christmas program for years at a very well known mega church (now defunct).  I was so used to our volunteerism that it didn't even occur to me that a mega church would not only hire musicians, but not even care about their religious affiliation.  They were just paid staff.

My brother-in-law works for the Catholic Church.  He is the music director for the church and the corresponding K-12 Catholic school.  That's his job and he gets paid good money for it.  The pianist is also paid.  He gets paid per mass.  The church usually only pays for the pianist for the high mass and all the other masses are accompanied by volunteers.  The pianist can possibly make over $500 per weekend though if he plays for weddings and funerals - that's a total of 5 hours of "performance" and the corresponding practice sessions - a pianist usually spends less than 20 hours a week to make $500.  A high school kid can do the job!  But yeah, you have to be Catholic to play for the Catholic mass.

But where you can make a lot of money in the Catholic Church as a musician is if you get commissioned to compose a mass.  My brother-in-law composed one of the masses of a canonization event at the Vatican.

[askandanswer]

 

58 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

 

Dup

[askandanswer]

59 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

  My brother-in-law composed one of the masses of a canonization event at the Vatican.

No doubt there was a mass attendance at the event

[Guest]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Ummmm, I'm vicariously waving my arms. Where are my endorphines? This is not working for me.

You scoff.  But to wave arms for over an hour of practice is really good exercise for the shoulders.  I've gotten really sore many times -- especially the fast and powerful songs with lots of umph.

As far as the endorphines, you're not going to feel them until you see people right in front of you reacting to your every whim.  Imagining... only goes so far.  Besides, it was just a thing someone said.  I can't corroborate this because my choir hardly ever does what I say anyway.

[NightSG]

On 3/12/2018 at 3:32 PM, Carborendum said:

Another convert a couple years ago left shortly after baptism simply because he missed the "upbeat" music at his old church.  He just didn't feel right with old-fashioned hymns.

"Old fashioned" and "upbeat" are not mutually exclusive.

Well, OK, outside of the LDS pianist/organist circle, they're not.  Allegro is not a dirty word, nor is embellishment.

1887: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrJ3WKNeeRA

1929: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVfhs3tU3ng  (this one might risk waking up the HPs)

1892: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3CdRmDWVY

1897: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DlvVx5kKuk (and that might be as much hairspray as a small RS meeting)

 

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The church usually only pays for the pianist for the high mass

Can they do those outside of Colorado and Washington?

Edited March 21, 2018 by NightSG

[NightSG]

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

If the scriptures don't say that something happened, then that thing didn't happen. (Argument from silence, a classic logical fallacy. But I digress.)

Ok, so from where are you inferring that Lucifer kicked in the door during a closed meeting to add his "here am I, send me?"

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. The Father never revealed to the Son his plan before revealing it to everyone else.

Not relevant to whether He volunteered.

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. The Son had no other source of understanding of the plan of salvation than everyone else and did not communicate with the Father about it, finding out what would be needed.

Still not relevant.

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. Any counseling that might have taken place between the Father and the Son (or for that matter, presumably between the Father and anyone else) would necessarily have been public knowledge, not a private conversation.

Wanna guess what this also isn't?

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. The barebones scriptural account we have is a complete and robust transcript of every notable thing that happened during that great council.

Whether they arm wrestled over who got the coolest Earthly names isn't really at issue.

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. No other such council had ever before been convened; this was the single largest council ever to have existed premortally, bar none.

One would think they'd mention a premortal Woodstock somewhere in Scripture.  It would certainly be more inspiring than a good chunk of the minor prophets.

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. The Father's question, "Whom shall I send?", was not an invitation to counsel together, but only a call for volunteers.

Certainly there was an opportunity for everybody to point at whoever they wanted to get rid of for a while, but if it happened, there's no indication that anyone considered it useful.

On 2/22/2018 at 11:51 PM, Vort said:

1. There were exactly two voices who spoke out at that time. (If you dispute this, see #1.)

They're all #1 now, thanks to insufficient software testing.

You've read the book, right?  It's clear the the author would have welcomed an opportunity to ramble on about how Ed, the Prince of Dampness, Betty Sue, the Duchess of Awkward Moments, Derp, the Author of this Forum Software and Milo, the Undersecretary of Cowardice also piped up, so it's safe to say, at least, that no such information was deemed relevant enough to pass on.

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, askandanswer said:

No doubt there was a mass attendance at the event

I see what you did there. 

 

[Vort]

11 hours ago, NightSG said:

Ok, so from where are you inferring that Lucifer kicked in the door during a closed meeting to add his "here am I, send me?"

What are you talking about? I made no such inference.

11 hours ago, NightSG said:

Not relevant to whether He volunteered.

Of course it is.

11 hours ago, NightSG said:

Still not relevant.

Again, of course it is. I'm tempted to think you're not even serious in your responses.

Look, the fact that you made a bunch of unwarranted inferences in my words doesn't mean that I did the same. I didn't.

11 hours ago, NightSG said:

Whether they arm wrestled over who got the coolest Earthly names isn't really at issue.

Now I know you're just trolling. This is in no way a response to what I wrote.

11 hours ago, NightSG said:

One would think they'd mention a premortal Woodstock somewhere in Scripture.

One would be an idiot. There is no specific mention of our premortal creation or birth. There is no specific mention of our tutelage. We don't even have any good idea of what constituted our "premortal life". Why would you suppose that any large, important council (of which there might have been, who knows, hundreds or thousands) would necessarily have been mentioned in our not-even-one-full-page-worth scriptural account of premortality?

You're a funny guy, and when you want to, you have relevant and interesting commentary. Apparently, in this situation you don't want to.

[NightSG]

5 hours ago, Vort said:

Why would you suppose that any large, important council (of which there might have been, who knows, hundreds or thousands) would necessarily have been mentioned in our not-even-one-full-page-worth scriptural account of premortality?

For the same reason I would assume that John the Baptist didn't give a 3 hour speech and overhaul Jesus's bicycle as a part of the baptism; people (and deities) tend to be long winded when it comes to Scripture, and at least do the Tolkien thing of mentioning interesting bits,even if they immediately follow them with half a page of "but that's not important right now, so in the interest of brevity..."

My cousin is a pediatrician fluent in Spanish, with experience in mountain biking, desert camping and improvising when necessary to provide the best possible treatment.  When her church wanted to do a relief mission in a very remote part of Mexico, nobody had any illusions that there was anyone around with a more ideal skillset than hers, but she wasn't approached about it; the details were posted and she went to the pastor to volunteer.  The fact that there was nobody else who could get to the remote villages around the primary site and meet their medical needs doesn't mean that she didn't volunteer.   They probably had her in mind when they were writing up the descriptions of needed positions, but she still had the option of not raising her hand.  Had she said no, there likely would be a few more graves in the desert today, but no one would have pressured her or tried to guilt her into doing it.  Now she organizes an annual return to that community, and with her husband, has helped them build a clinic, obtain a generator and electric pump for the main community's well and arrange for regular fuel deliveries.  Had it been by the LDS method of callings, she likely would have finished the first trip and said "I've done what I was told to do, and now I'm done with it."

Could Christ have simply decided not to speak up?  If He couldn't, then where is the virtue in going along with the Plan?  We would be screwed, but to deny His agency would mean there was no point involving Him in any counsel.  I don't ask or consider my alarm clock's opinion of whether it should wake me up in time for work.

[The Folk Prophet]

49 minutes ago, NightSG said:

For the same reason I would assume that John the Baptist didn't give a 3 hour speech and overhaul Jesus's bicycle as a part of the baptism; people (and deities) tend to be long winded when it comes to Scripture, and at least do the Tolkien thing of mentioning interesting bits,even if they immediately follow them with half a page of "but that's not important right now, so in the interest of brevity...

You assume a large council per-mortal meeting would be mentioned in the scriptures because John the Baptist didn't talk about Jesus's bicycle?

That's some seriously dope logic there yo.