Should I come back to the Church?

[Dani]

My apologies if this is in the wrong thread or whatnot- I just joined this forum today.
Anyways, let me explain my predicament and then I'll ask my question:

I had some amazing experiences/coincidences that led me to being baptized LDS in September of 2016. I was super antagonistic and mocking toward the Church before I joined, and so it had to be what I felt at the time was divine intervention to even soften my heart to that point. No joke, one day I told God I'd never be a Mormon and the next day, my best friend/fellow convert said she was going on a mission; then, I happened to sit in a room full of 300 people next to a guy from across the country who told me he'd just turned in his papers. There were multiple other moments like that that confirmed I needed to check this out. I gained a super strong testimony of God's timing, and I knew the other churches I had been to were wrong. This was quite literally my last option.

Everything made sense and the things I learned from the missionaries and in church meetings seemed to answer questions where other churches seemed to leave them. 
I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Almost from the beginning, I had doubts. Everyone in my family is basically culturally Catholic or nominally Protestant, so it got hard fighting them on things I hadn't been taught about or things they were skewing and misinterpreting and whatnot.

I ended up losing my testimony totally and in a split-second decision used quitmormon.com to remove my name from Church records in late September 2017. The day it got processed, the missionaries found my mom and ended up teaching her the first two or three lessons over the next few days. She wasn't interested, but I ended up finding them again in early November. We met a few times, but I didn't think I wanted to go back.

Now I feel such a strong pull to go back to the Church, but I'm afraid it's a purely emotional thing because, honestly, I want it to be true.

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not? I can get past his wrongdoings, basically, but the likelihood of him actually being THE Prophet to bring about the Restoration is what bugs me. It kind of boils down to the Great Apostasy-- in short, I see very little concrete evidence for it scripturally and historically. It makes sense the faith of the people waxes and wanes, but this is one thing that I can't wrap my head around. Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, when roughly 1800 years elapsed between the time of Christ and Joseph Smith?

I've done some reading in the early church and haven't come across evidence of a lot of modern LDS practices in the early church. So if it was a restoration, where was it in the first place?

Sorry if this is long but this is a pretty big crisis of faith for me since I gave up a lot to become LDS and hurt a lot of people by leaving. I had some amazing experiences in the Church but basically the questions I have surrounding Joseph, the Great Apostasy, and the Restoration are like gigantic roadblocks to me possibly coming back.

If someone has resources or advice or something, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[zil]

Welcome, @Dani!  I'm thinking some of the converts on here, like @Grunt, @anatess2, and investigator @Blossom76 might be able to address your questions better than I can.  I just wanted to say, "welcome".  Glad you've joined us.  Hope you find answers to your questions.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

My apologies if this is in the wrong thread or whatnot- I just joined this forum today.
Anyways, let me explain my predicament and then I'll ask my question:

I had some amazing experiences/coincidences that led me to being baptized LDS in September of 2016. I was super antagonistic and mocking toward the Church before I joined, and so it had to be what I felt at the time was divine intervention to even soften my heart to that point. No joke, one day I told God I'd never be a Mormon and the next day, my best friend/fellow convert said she was going on a mission; then, I happened to sit in a room full of 300 people next to a guy from across the country who told me he'd just turned in his papers. There were multiple other moments like that that confirmed I needed to check this out. I gained a super strong testimony of God's timing, and I knew the other churches I had been to were wrong. This was quite literally my last option.

Everything made sense and the things I learned from the missionaries and in church meetings seemed to answer questions where other churches seemed to leave them. 
I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Almost from the beginning, I had doubts. Everyone in my family is basically culturally Catholic or nominally Protestant, so it got hard fighting them on things I hadn't been taught about or things they were skewing and misinterpreting and whatnot.

I ended up losing my testimony totally and in a split-second decision used quitmormon.com to remove my name from Church records in late September 2017. The day it got processed, the missionaries found my mom and ended up teaching her the first two or three lessons over the next few days. She wasn't interested, but I ended up finding them again in early November. We met a few times, but I didn't think I wanted to go back.

Now I feel such a strong pull to go back to the Church, but I'm afraid it's a purely emotional thing because, honestly, I want it to be true.

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not? I can get past his wrongdoings, basically, but the likelihood of him actually being THE Prophet to bring about the Restoration is what bugs me. It kind of boils down to the Great Apostasy-- in short, I see very little concrete evidence for it scripturally and historically. It makes sense the faith of the people waxes and wanes, but this is one thing that I can't wrap my head around. Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, when roughly 1800 years elapsed between the time of Christ and Joseph Smith?

I've done some reading in the early church and haven't come across evidence of a lot of modern LDS practices in the early church. So if it was a restoration, where was it in the first place?

Sorry if this is long but this is a pretty big crisis of faith for me since I gave up a lot to become LDS and hurt a lot of people by leaving. I had some amazing experiences in the Church but basically the questions I have surrounding Joseph, the Great Apostasy, and the Restoration are like gigantic roadblocks to me possibly coming back.

If someone has resources or advice or something, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Welcome!  I don't even know where to begin, and I'm a crappy writer anyway.  I'm much better on the phone/in person, so please bear with my scattered thoughts and ask questions about my blathering.

For you, the whole church rests on whether Joseph Smith was a prophet.  Does it really, though?  I assume you've read the Book of Mormon.  Do you believe the Book of Mormon to be gospel?  If so, then it doesn't matter if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.  At the very least, if the Book of Mormon is true, the Joseph Smith was an instrument of God, prophet or not.  That doesn't change the restoration of the true Church.

Also, doubts are normal.  You will ALWAYS have doubts.  Right now, you doubt Joseph Smith was a prophet.  Through study and prayer, I'm confident you'll come to once again know that he is.  It won't stop there, though.  Next week you may doubt that the Word of Wisdom is accurate.  The week after that you may question the Proclamation on the Family.  It is our nature to question and doubt.  That's why God gives us THREE methods for determining the truth.  When you have doubts with one, turn to the other two.  Those three things are:

1.  Scripture:  God gives us answers, lessons, and commandments through scripture.  The scriptures complement each other.  If you are having trouble with something, prayer and scripture will bring you closer to Christ and the Great Comforter, where you will find your answers.

2.  Prophets and modern revelation:  When you struggle with scripture, turn to the Apostles.  The Church does an incredible job documenting everything.  Literally, everything.  Having trouble with how to discipline your children?  LDS.org has an article on it.  Having an issue with the Atonement?  Yep.  LDS.org.

3.  Personal revelation.  I feel this one is one of the best, but it often needs one of the other two to help it along.  If you have trouble with something, pray on it.  Ask God to help you.  If He brought me to the answers, He's obviously willing to help ANYONE.   

There you have three points to a pyramid, all of which compliment each other.  Having trouble with Joseph Smith as a Prophet?  Study and Pray.  Have trouble with the Book of Mormon?  Read the Prophets and pray.  Having trouble with prayer?  Get in the scripture and listen to the prophets.

Now, if you're anything like me, there will be things that are faith shattering that you just CAN'T find the answers to.  That doesn't mean there aren't answers, it just means you haven't found them.  Maybe you aren't ready.  Maybe it's too big of an issue for you to swallow whole.  I have several of these things.  The best piece of advice I was ever given came from a chance meeting with a young missionary while I was killing time.  We were discussing a few things that were keeping me from baptism.  She said she couldn't really help me with them, but I should pray to be at peace with those issues.  Not to understand them.  Just pray to accept them for now, so I can move past them and come back to them later.  Within a week I was committed to baptism.  

Talk to everyone.  In person, if possible.  Don't be afraid to ask blunt questions.  Listen to their answers.  If you are sincere, I'm confident God will put you in touch with the right person to help you.  On the morning of my baptism, the wife in the family that helped me the most gave a talk.  She said when the family was prompted a few short months before, while she was 7 months pregnant, to sell their house and move from Utah to New England with no understanding of why, she was nervous.  She went on to say that within a week of meeting my family, she knew without a shadow of a doubt that she was sent here to meet my family.  I believe that.  

Also, when I had turned away from every missionary I met (7), I reached out to the online missionaries on mormon.org.  I spoke to a young lady who started her mission that week.  Over the coming months, the Spirit spoke to me very strongly through her.  She led me to baptism.  I had a connection to her so strong, I believe I knew her in my premortal life.  The day I decided to be baptized, she told me she was being sent home.  She had previously battled cancer, and came on her mission a year before she should have.  She was constantly sick in the MTC, so they were sending her home.  I know in my heart that she was put there, at that time, because I needed her.

Do I understand everything about the restoration?  I don't.  I still have questions about some things.  But I believe what the church teaches is true.  I believe the Book of Mormon is scripture.  

I hope this helps you.  I hope you start your journey again, and this time start a journal.  When God helps you, write it down.  When the times get tough, it will help you remember how you got where you are.

[Grunt]

Ha!  I think that's the longest thing I've ever written here.  I feel like a real Mormon.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

Here's something I kinda like to talk about.  People seem to misunderstand what this sentence means even thought it is pretty clear as it is written.

"Gates of Hell."  What is that?  They're the gates of hell.  What do you think it means?  What do gates do?  They prevent passage.  With prisons, they prevent the inmates from getting out.  In the case of a fortress, they prevent invaders from getting in.  Which do you think hell is?  It's a prison.  So, the gates of hell will prevent people from escaping hell.

For the gates of hell to "prevail" against the Church of Jesus Christ, they would prevent the Church from going into the prison of hell and allowing souls to escape.  But the gates of hell do NOT prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.  We DO go into hell (in this case Spirit Prison) and break people out.

Baptisms for the dead and other vicarious ordinances allow us to go into hell and release those who have thus far been imprisoned.

This is all pretty clear using the exact language that is written in the Bible.  But for some reason, people take this to mean that the "Powers of Hell" shall not prevail against the Church.  But it doesn't say "powers."  It says "gates."

Nowhere in this passage of scripture is Jesus saying that the Church will never falter or fall away.  Never does He say that there will not be this great apostasy.  But I find it very telling that some of the more "modern" versions of the Bible change the wording to "powers of hell shall not conquer it." 8th article of faith, anyone?

Edited January 2, 2018 by Guest

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I had some amazing experiences/coincidences that led me to being baptized LDS in September of 2016. I was super antagonistic and mocking toward the Church before I joined, and so it had to be what I felt at the time was divine intervention to even soften my heart to that point. No joke, one day I told God I'd never be a Mormon and the next day, my best friend/fellow convert said she was going on a mission; then, I happened to sit in a room full of 300 people next to a guy from across the country who told me he'd just turned in his papers. There were multiple other moments like that that confirmed I needed to check this out. I gained a super strong testimony of God's timing, and I knew the other churches I had been to were wrong. This was quite literally my last option.

Everything made sense and the things I learned from the missionaries and in church meetings seemed to answer questions where other churches seemed to leave them. 
I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Thats awesome!

1 hour ago, Dani said:

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not? I can get past his wrongdoings, basically, but the likelihood of him actually being THE Prophet to bring about the Restoration is what bugs me.

Yep, that is a big question- the second biggest question actually.  The biggest question is "Lord, is this YOUR Church?".   Ultimately the best answer-giver of that question is going to be Christ Himself.  I would encourage you to ask Him.  Listening to the Spirit is different than listening to @Doni.  I can't describe how the different is to you (cause I'm not you), but for me... when I listen to my internal voice, I sound like an ADHD jackrabbit that's had 7 Mountain Dews before 9 AM.  Versus when I'm listening to the Spirit's voice, to me His voice is "peace, be still": all the ADHD in my head stops, replaced by such clearness and tranquility.  

Again, that's just me.  You learning how the Spirit sounds to *you* and listen to Him is one of the best things you can ever do (or anyone can ever do).

1 hour ago, Dani said:

It kind of boils down to the Great Apostasy-- in short, I see very little concrete evidence for it scripturally and historically.

What does the Spirit tell you?  If you look at another church, does He tell you "this is my Church" or does He tell you otherwise?

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, when roughly 1800 years elapsed between the time of Christ and Joseph Smith?

In short, this verse is commonly misunderstood.  I'm going to refer you to here: https://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Restoration.shtml#gates for an explanation.  

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I've done some reading in the early church and haven't come across evidence of a lot of modern LDS practices in the early church. So if it was a restoration, where was it in the first place?

Two thoughts here

-The "restoration" refers to the restoration of priesthood power.  It's not to say that God gave Joseph Smith everything and then it's all done-- no, no, no.  Rather, we are people who believes that God *continues* to speak to us, teach us, and we have many great and marvelous things still to learn.  So naturally we know more now than in the 1800's.

- Many of the things you're probably referring to are actually church policies.  Policies can change throughout time without changing doctrines.  For example, the RCC used to have married priests but now only has celibate ones (a change in policy).  Two recent ones in the LDS church would be allowing youth to more participate in temple or changing General Conference formatting (from 12 hours to 10).  

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Sorry if this is long but this is a pretty big crisis of faith for me since I gave up a lot to become LDS and hurt a lot of people by leaving. I had some amazing experiences in the Church but basically the questions I have surrounding Joseph, the Great Apostasy, and the Restoration are like gigantic roadblocks to me possibly coming back.

We are HAPPY to help!  No worries!  And welcome to the forum, bytheway.

1 hour ago, Dani said:

If someone has resources or advice or something, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Biggest thing: learn to listen to the Spirit.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

My apologies if this is in the wrong thread or whatnot- I just joined this forum today.
Anyways, let me explain my predicament and then I'll ask my question:

I had some amazing experiences/coincidences that led me to being baptized LDS in September of 2016. I was super antagonistic and mocking toward the Church before I joined, and so it had to be what I felt at the time was divine intervention to even soften my heart to that point. No joke, one day I told God I'd never be a Mormon and the next day, my best friend/fellow convert said she was going on a mission; then, I happened to sit in a room full of 300 people next to a guy from across the country who told me he'd just turned in his papers. There were multiple other moments like that that confirmed I needed to check this out. I gained a super strong testimony of God's timing, and I knew the other churches I had been to were wrong. This was quite literally my last option.

Everything made sense and the things I learned from the missionaries and in church meetings seemed to answer questions where other churches seemed to leave them. 
I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Almost from the beginning, I had doubts. Everyone in my family is basically culturally Catholic or nominally Protestant, so it got hard fighting them on things I hadn't been taught about or things they were skewing and misinterpreting and whatnot.

I ended up losing my testimony totally and in a split-second decision used quitmormon.com to remove my name from Church records in late September 2017. The day it got processed, the missionaries found my mom and ended up teaching her the first two or three lessons over the next few days. She wasn't interested, but I ended up finding them again in early November. We met a few times, but I didn't think I wanted to go back.

Now I feel such a strong pull to go back to the Church, but I'm afraid it's a purely emotional thing because, honestly, I want it to be true.

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not? I can get past his wrongdoings, basically, but the likelihood of him actually being THE Prophet to bring about the Restoration is what bugs me. It kind of boils down to the Great Apostasy-- in short, I see very little concrete evidence for it scripturally and historically. It makes sense the faith of the people waxes and wanes, but this is one thing that I can't wrap my head around. Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, when roughly 1800 years elapsed between the time of Christ and Joseph Smith?

I've done some reading in the early church and haven't come across evidence of a lot of modern LDS practices in the early church. So if it was a restoration, where was it in the first place?

Sorry if this is long but this is a pretty big crisis of faith for me since I gave up a lot to become LDS and hurt a lot of people by leaving. I had some amazing experiences in the Church but basically the questions I have surrounding Joseph, the Great Apostasy, and the Restoration are like gigantic roadblocks to me possibly coming back.

If someone has resources or advice or something, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Jesus taught (John 12:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." This is an eternal principle. Jesus gave His life to bring forth the resurrection and exaltation of all the children of God. Likewise, His Church died to bring forth the dispensation of the fulness of times (Ephesians 1:10). When we lose our lives in Christ we become instruments in the salvation of so many more than just ourselves.

If you really think Joseph Smith was a bad as you think, then simply forgive him so that this does not become a stumbling block for understanding the Great Apostasy, The Restoration, the Book of Mormon, etc.

[Jane_Doe]

Another thought-- 

The LDS belief in the Great Apostasy is the loss of priesthood authority.  It's not to say that people living in the 1400's didn't do many good things in Christ's name-- cause they certainly did.  Their belief in Christ and love of Him was very real.  Same with all Christian churches today.  

But these people did not have Christ's priesthood and continual revelation from Him.  Without that, errors crept in and pieces were lost.  It's critically important to always have Christ at the head with continual revelation and His authority/priesthood.  

[Blossom76]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

My apologies if this is in the wrong thread or whatnot- I just joined this forum today.
Anyways, let me explain my predicament and then I'll ask my question:

I had some amazing experiences/coincidences that led me to being baptized LDS in September of 2016. I was super antagonistic and mocking toward the Church before I joined, and so it had to be what I felt at the time was divine intervention to even soften my heart to that point. No joke, one day I told God I'd never be a Mormon and the next day, my best friend/fellow convert said she was going on a mission; then, I happened to sit in a room full of 300 people next to a guy from across the country who told me he'd just turned in his papers. There were multiple other moments like that that confirmed I needed to check this out. I gained a super strong testimony of God's timing, and I knew the other churches I had been to were wrong. This was quite literally my last option.

Everything made sense and the things I learned from the missionaries and in church meetings seemed to answer questions where other churches seemed to leave them. 
I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Almost from the beginning, I had doubts. Everyone in my family is basically culturally Catholic or nominally Protestant, so it got hard fighting them on things I hadn't been taught about or things they were skewing and misinterpreting and whatnot.

I ended up losing my testimony totally and in a split-second decision used quitmormon.com to remove my name from Church records in late September 2017. The day it got processed, the missionaries found my mom and ended up teaching her the first two or three lessons over the next few days. She wasn't interested, but I ended up finding them again in early November. We met a few times, but I didn't think I wanted to go back.

Now I feel such a strong pull to go back to the Church, but I'm afraid it's a purely emotional thing because, honestly, I want it to be true.

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not? I can get past his wrongdoings, basically, but the likelihood of him actually being THE Prophet to bring about the Restoration is what bugs me. It kind of boils down to the Great Apostasy-- in short, I see very little concrete evidence for it scripturally and historically. It makes sense the faith of the people waxes and wanes, but this is one thing that I can't wrap my head around. Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, when roughly 1800 years elapsed between the time of Christ and Joseph Smith?

I've done some reading in the early church and haven't come across evidence of a lot of modern LDS practices in the early church. So if it was a restoration, where was it in the first place?

Sorry if this is long but this is a pretty big crisis of faith for me since I gave up a lot to become LDS and hurt a lot of people by leaving. I had some amazing experiences in the Church but basically the questions I have surrounding Joseph, the Great Apostasy, and the Restoration are like gigantic roadblocks to me possibly coming back.

If someone has resources or advice or something, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

I don't know if this will help you, but this is what did it for me in the end regarding whether Jospeh Smith was a prophet or not.

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/book-of-mormon-hoax/ 

Also remember that prophets aren't perfect, and I don't think God even wants them to be.  Look at Noah, the dude was chosen to save the human race from extinction and the first thing he did straight after was get naked wasted drunk.  Seriously ? 

The great apostasy is a bit harder I think and I struggle with this too.  This video explains how it MAY have happened.

Please don't beat yourself up, I think questions are a good thing, especially hard questions. 

[wenglund]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not?

If I may, let me give you a different, and more accurate question upon which the Church and gospel actually rests: Will the Church and restored gospel best enable me to seek Christ and become like him?

I suggest this because the purpose of the church and gospel is to bring us to Christ, rather than to determine if Joseph Smith is a prophet. The later is simply one of several initial means to ultimately attaining the stated purpose. 

The way to answer the question I posed is outlined in Alma 32, starting at verse 21. Briefly, it suggest that, since you already have planted the seed of faith, that you let it grow by living the gospel, and see if it magnifies your soul and brings you closer to Christ. If it does, then you can have increasing faith that it is "true." And, if it is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet, and the things you have concerns about regarding him are, for all intents and purposes, not relevant.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by wenglund

[anatess2]

Hi @Dani!

LDS convert from Roman Catholic here.  Just a few things that might nudge you in the right direction.  Well... first off... nobody can really answer your question of "Should I come back to Church" but you.  The Mormons would, of course, say, "YES!".  The non-Mormons would, of course, say, "Are you nuts?  Didn't you learn the first time?".  Unfortunately, the way to know the answer is a way you rejected - through your emotions.  That's how the Holy Spirit speaks.  I mean, did you expect something else?  Sure, there are those people in God's Kingdom that get giant revelations - like Paul getting a Vision of Christ, Mary getting visited by the Angel, Joseph Smith seeing God.  But if you're waiting for those kinds of revelations... well, let's just say the chances of that happening is zero to negative, especially where faith is lacking.  So, you're going to have to learn to identify the voice of the Spirit.  And He doesn't use the regular means of communication like a radio broadcast or a text on your phone or even appear infront of you talking to you face-to-face or even some miraculous thing of some kind.  No, the way the Holy Spirit speaks is through emotions and impressions.  This is different for everybody depending on how one processes information.  A lot of charismatic folks talk about a "burning in the bossom" kind of thing.  That's not how I would describe how the Spirit speaks to me.  The Spirit speaks to me through a "clicking of a puzzle piece in my brain" kind of feeling where my brain was foggy before then something clicks and that brings my brain into a peaceful state.  This would happen even if my question was not answered.  But, like I said, it is different for everybody and I think it's because everyone has a different way of processing information and the Spirit uses that way to speak to us.  You've felt the Spirit before I'm sure.  You just didn't trust it.

Anyway, as to the question of whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet... well, nobody can answer that but the Spirit.  So you'll have to ask him and figure it out.  In any case, in my opinion, there are only 2 possibilities - Jesus gave the keys of the Church to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and they in turn handed the keys to the Bishops before they died.  That would be the claim of the Catholic Church.  If this is true, then the Catholic Church is the true Church (then you'll have to figure out which Catholic Church after the schism has the authority).  If Apostolic Authority did not transfer to Bishops, then a Great Apostasy happened as there is no Priesthood Authority left on the earth after John the Revelator died.  Even the Catholic Church does not claim any other Apostle ordained after John.  If so, then it makes it possible for the Apostolic Authority to have been restored when Peter, James, and John ordained Joseph Smith with Apostolic Authority.  Now, which is true?  Nobody can prove that to you.  You'll have to ask God.

As to the question of "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".  You need to read the entire chapter to get context.  I'll copy the relevant verses here:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So, verses 15, 16, and 17, we see here that Peter testified of Christ as the Son of God.  That's what he knows to be true.  Jesus validated the testimony stating that it is not by mortal means that Peter gained this testimony but rather, the testimony was revealed to him by God (which is exactly what it means to have a testimony - a personal revelation from God).  Jesus then instructed Peter that it is upon this ROCK that Jesus will build his Church.  What is the rock?  It is THAT REVELATION that Jesus is the Son of God.  That's the Rock from which the Church is built.  And it is THAT REVELATION that Jesus is the Son of God that the gates of hell cannot stop from being revealed to those who are in hell - those that have died before Jesus fulfilled his mission and his atoning sacrifice.  These verses reveals to us that Death is not the final chance for us to repent and follow Christ.  The revelation that Jesus is the Son of God can be attained even after one has died.  This means that even when one is living in an era or a place where there is Apostasy - that is, the person lived his entire life without ever hearing the name Jesus or without having seen a page of scripture or not having met a person with the authority to baptize him into the Kingdom of God - his death does not keep him in hell without a chance for repentance.  Rather, the atoning sacrifice of Christ is still available to him and he can still gain a testimony of Christ and accept Christ's atonement, repent, and come to Christ.

Anyway, this has gotten too long so I'm going to end it here.  Hope this helps.

[lostinwater]

18 hours ago, Dani said:

My apologies if this is in the wrong thread or whatnot- I just joined this forum today.
Anyways, let me explain my predicament and then I'll ask my question:

I had some amazing experiences/coincidences that led me to being baptized LDS in September of 2016. I was super antagonistic and mocking toward the Church before I joined, and so it had to be what I felt at the time was divine intervention to even soften my heart to that point. No joke, one day I told God I'd never be a Mormon and the next day, my best friend/fellow convert said she was going on a mission; then, I happened to sit in a room full of 300 people next to a guy from across the country who told me he'd just turned in his papers. There were multiple other moments like that that confirmed I needed to check this out. I gained a super strong testimony of God's timing, and I knew the other churches I had been to were wrong. This was quite literally my last option.

Everything made sense and the things I learned from the missionaries and in church meetings seemed to answer questions where other churches seemed to leave them. 
I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Almost from the beginning, I had doubts. Everyone in my family is basically culturally Catholic or nominally Protestant, so it got hard fighting them on things I hadn't been taught about or things they were skewing and misinterpreting and whatnot.

I ended up losing my testimony totally and in a split-second decision used quitmormon.com to remove my name from Church records in late September 2017. The day it got processed, the missionaries found my mom and ended up teaching her the first two or three lessons over the next few days. She wasn't interested, but I ended up finding them again in early November. We met a few times, but I didn't think I wanted to go back.

Now I feel such a strong pull to go back to the Church, but I'm afraid it's a purely emotional thing because, honestly, I want it to be true.

For me, the whole Church rests on one question: was Joseph Smith a prophet or not? I can get past his wrongdoings, basically, but the likelihood of him actually being THE Prophet to bring about the Restoration is what bugs me. It kind of boils down to the Great Apostasy-- in short, I see very little concrete evidence for it scripturally and historically. It makes sense the faith of the people waxes and wanes, but this is one thing that I can't wrap my head around. Why would Christ say he's going to build His Church and even the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, when roughly 1800 years elapsed between the time of Christ and Joseph Smith?

I've done some reading in the early church and haven't come across evidence of a lot of modern LDS practices in the early church. So if it was a restoration, where was it in the first place?

Sorry if this is long but this is a pretty big crisis of faith for me since I gave up a lot to become LDS and hurt a lot of people by leaving. I had some amazing experiences in the Church but basically the questions I have surrounding Joseph, the Great Apostasy, and the Restoration are like gigantic roadblocks to me possibly coming back.

If someone has resources or advice or something, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Thanks for posting this.  Just my opinion - and in the interests of full disclosure, i am less active - as in mostly inactive.  

But i feel there is a healthy middle ground between total acceptance and total derision.  i hate this idea that those are the only two choices.  It just creates this sense of separation, alienation, and persecution that i feel is the wrongful justification of so much spite, hatred, cruelty, and misunderstanding.   People will disagree - and that's fine - but i know i could never quite make sense of a lot of things.  Call it a lack of faith, or not asking for answers in the right way - but there are some things that just feel wrong to me.  But i don't think things like this (ie that you are unwilling/unable to change your view on, even after earnest soul searching) mean you can't participate in the things that are good for you - though i recommend a lot of self introspection and honesty in determining what is good for you in the church and what is not.  i think generally we can distinguish between the things we don't like but know we need and the things that are toxic to our emotional well-being - and that's what i mean.

Religion i think is meant to draw people to God and Jesus, not be an end in and of itself - so to the extent your religion of choice accomplishes that, i think you are doing what Jesus would want you to.  

[Dani]

@Grunt, thank you! Something you said reminds me of M. Russell Ballard's "To Whom Shall We Go." He shared a quote from I believe Neal A. Maxwell, "We should not   that just because something is unexplainable by us, it us unexplainable."

I remember writing that down (from my first GC as a member, so it sticks out in my mind).

And I love the Book of Mormon. When I left, that was one thing that got me- how to explain this book if it wasn't inspired of God. The testimonies of the witnesses were always super powerful for me, too. Even after leaving, I still felt like there was something special about that book. What you said makes a lot of sense, too. If this book is true, then the only church that preaches living by its principles must be, as well.

I'm definitely going to have to buy a journal, too! 

Thank you so much for your comment! 

[Dani]

On 1/2/2018 at 4:52 PM, Carborendum said:

Here's something I kinda like to talk about.  People seem to misunderstand what this sentence means even thought it is pretty clear as it is written.

"Gates of Hell."  What is that?  They're the gates of hell.  What do you think it means?  What do gates do?  They prevent passage.  With prisons, they prevent the inmates from getting out.  In the case of a fortress, they prevent invaders from getting in.  Which do you think hell is?  It's a prison.  So, the gates of hell will prevent people from escaping hell.

For the gates of hell to "prevail" against the Church of Jesus Christ, they would prevent the Church from going into the prison of hell and allowing souls to escape.  But the gates of hell do NOT prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ.  We DO go into hell (in this case Spirit Prison) and break people out.

Baptisms for the dead and other vicarious ordinances allow us to go into hell and release those who have thus far been imprisoned.

This is all pretty clear using the exact language that is written in the Bible.  But for some reason, people take this to mean that the "Powers of Hell" shall not prevail against the Church.  But it doesn't say "powers."  It says "gates."

Nowhere in this passage of scripture is Jesus saying that the Church will never falter or fall away.  Never does He say that there will not be this great apostasy.  But I find it very telling that some of the more "modern" versions of the Bible change the wording to "powers of hell shall not conquer it." 8th article of faith, anyone?

Anyone in my large extended family that cares about religion is at least culturally Catholic or Anglican (even though I was raised without religion), so that line of argumentation is pretty commonly used to tear down groups springing up post-Protestant Reformation. I think because I've only ever heard someone use the quote in that context (usually in arguments after I started hanging out with "the Mormons"), that's how I think of it: "Nothing can prevail against the church, so how could it fall away one generation after the Apostles?" 

But your line of reasoning is interesting. It seems to make more sense to me especially concerning other passages of scripture. I had the same assumption for the longest time about the Bible being it. My mom raised me and my brother to be "seekers," but without the Catholic things she was raised with. I went to an independent Baptist church, then a Oneness Pentecostal church before finding the LDS Church, so I had a lot of problems with understanding why the Bible isn't the end of the canon.

I'm way off topic now, haha, but I wanted to add that since both have been pretty big stumbling blocks for me.

[Dani]

On 1/2/2018 at 5:25 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Thats awesome!

Yep, that is a big question- the second biggest question actually.  The biggest question is "Lord, is this YOUR Church?".   Ultimately the best answer-giver of that question is going to be Christ Himself.  I would encourage you to ask Him.  Listening to the Spirit is different than listening to @Doni.  I can't describe how the different is to you (cause I'm not you), but for me... when I listen to my internal voice, I sound like an ADHD jackrabbit that's had 7 Mountain Dews before 9 AM.  Versus when I'm listening to the Spirit's voice, to me His voice is "peace, be still": all the ADHD in my head stops, replaced by such clearness and tranquility.  

Again, that's just me.  You learning how the Spirit sounds to *you* and listen to Him is one of the best things you can ever do (or anyone can ever do).

What does the Spirit tell you?  If you look at another church, does He tell you "this is my Church" or does He tell you otherwise?

In short, this verse is commonly misunderstood.  I'm going to refer you to here: https://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Restoration.shtml#gates for an explanation.  

Two thoughts here

-The "restoration" refers to the restoration of priesthood power.  It's not to say that God gave Joseph Smith everything and then it's all done-- no, no, no.  Rather, we are people who believes that God *continues* to speak to us, teach us, and we have many great and marvelous things still to learn.  So naturally we know more now than in the 1800's.

- Many of the things you're probably referring to are actually church policies.  Policies can change throughout time without changing doctrines.  For example, the RCC used to have married priests but now only has celibate ones (a change in policy).  Two recent ones in the LDS church would be allowing youth to more participate in temple or changing General Conference formatting (from 12 hours to 10).  

We are HAPPY to help!  No worries!  And welcome to the forum, bytheway.

Biggest thing: learn to listen to the Spirit.

It is! A dear friend of mine was waiting to serve a mission, and she swore to me she'd take me to every major church history site in Missouri/Illinois before she left, and she did! We went to a Time Out For Women in Overland Park, KS and packed the morning and afternoon before with seeing all the KC-area sites because she insisted I get to see it. I thanked God for her because it was amazing.

And differentiating between my own mind and the Spirit is easy sometimes and hard others. And you're right. Asking Him is. I just have a hard time listening for answers. XD

Nothing for me seems to go right when I look at other churches. I went to Mass at my family's local parish, went to services at one of my previous churches, and nothing seemed right to me. I guess this was my answer?

I checked out the link you included, and I really enjoyed reading the passage about the 'gates.' The last line where he quoted Hugh Nibley reminded me of the passage in (I believe) 1 Peter about Jesus preaching to the Spirits in prison. Makes sooo much sense in light of that. Also the next couple questions answered about the apostasy on that page are really powerful. Something I've always found odd is evangelicals mocking LDS for believing in the Great Apostasy when they themselves believe the greater Church was in need of, at the very least, a reformation or restoration.

Thank you!

[Dani]

On 1/2/2018 at 5:40 PM, CV75 said:

Jesus taught (John 12:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." This is an eternal principle. Jesus gave His life to bring forth the resurrection and exaltation of all the children of God. Likewise, His Church died to bring forth the dispensation of the fulness of times (Ephesians 1:10). When we lose our lives in Christ we become instruments in the salvation of so many more than just ourselves.

If you really think Joseph Smith was a bad as you think, then simply forgive him so that this does not become a stumbling block for understanding the Great Apostasy, The Restoration, the Book of Mormon, etc.

I don't think he was an evil or an awful man by any means. None of us is perfect. But when someone muddies the waters by going line by line with every awful thing he was accused of, it's just hard to offer an explanation because I tend to freeze up in those types of situations.

And your explanation of the scriptures you quoted is interesting. I've heard John 12:24 before, but it makes sense to put in the context of Ephesians 1:10!

[Dani]

On 1/2/2018 at 5:52 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Another thought-- 

The LDS belief in the Great Apostasy is the loss of priesthood authority.  It's not to say that people living in the 1400's didn't do many good things in Christ's name-- cause they certainly did.  Their belief in Christ and love of Him was very real.  Same with all Christian churches today.  

But these people did not have Christ's priesthood and continual revelation from Him.  Without that, errors crept in and pieces were lost.  It's critically important to always have Christ at the head with continual revelation and His authority/priesthood.  

I like that. It was hard for me to understand how churches could be good if they were wrong per my pre-LDS understanding. I'm the kind of person who likes to get along with and see the good in people as a whole, so having the freedom to really see how all churches were capable of doing some good even if their theology wasn't spot-on was awesome. They can have pieces of the truth without the fullness of truth, much like people who lived before the Restoration, right?

Thank you for your thoughts!

 

[Dani]

On 1/2/2018 at 7:48 PM, Blossom76 said:

I don't know if this will help you, but this is what did it for me in the end regarding whether Jospeh Smith was a prophet or not.

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/book-of-mormon-hoax/ 

Also remember that prophets aren't perfect, and I don't think God even wants them to be.  Look at Noah, the dude was chosen to save the human race from extinction and the first thing he did straight after was get naked wasted drunk.  Seriously ? 

The great apostasy is a bit harder I think and I struggle with this too.  This video explains how it MAY have happened.

Please don't beat yourself up, I think questions are a good thing, especially hard int. 

I've always loved the Book of Mormon, and the hoax stories seemed weird considering how outlandish they were. But coming from a fundamentalist world where Mormons were evil as well as their Church, and the Bible was all we had, it was hard to shake those instincts even after I joined. And I didn't want to be naive just because of how I felt about the Book of Mormon. I'm trying to look at the history of it all with an open mind, and it's getting harder to discount it at all.

I remember sitting in Institute when i

On 1/2/2018 at 7:48 PM, Blossom76 said:

I don't know if this will help you, but this is what did it for me in the end regarding whether Jospeh Smith was a prophet or not.

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/defending-the-faith/book-of-mormon-hoax/ 

Also remember that prophets aren't perfect, and I don't think God even wants them to be.  Look at Noah, the dude was chosen to save the human race from extinction and the first thing he did straight after was get naked wasted drunk.  Seriously ? 

The great apostasy is a bit harder I think and I struggle with this too.  This video explains how it MAY have happened.

Please don't beat yourself up, I think questions are a good thing, especially hard questions. 

I've always loved the Book of Mormon, and the hoax stories seemed weird considering how outlandish they were. But coming from a fundamentalist world where Mormons were evil as well as their Church, and the Bible was all we had, it was hard to shake those instincts even after I joined. And I didn't want to be naive just because of how I felt about the Book of Mormon. I'm trying to look at the history of it all with an open mind, and it's getting harder to discount it at all.

I remember sitting in Institute when it finally clicked- look at the things the prophets and called men of God did thousands of years ago. He uses imperfect people all the time! I'm starting to think of the imperfection of leaders and of everyday members as evidence. Could a system survive like this if it wasn't divinely inspired? And when you get that thought, it's hard to answer! Lol

I tend to think of doubts or things I don't understand about the Gospel as shortcomings, and it's hard to just wrap my mind around that it's not a bad thing.

I'll have to check out the video! Thanks!

[Dani]

On 1/3/2018 at 2:27 AM, wenglund said:

If I may, let me give you a different, and more accurate question upon which the Church and gospel actually rests: Will the Church and restored gospel best enable me to seek Christ and become like him?

I suggest this because the purpose of the church and gospel is to bring us to Christ, rather than to determine if Joseph Smith is a prophet. The later is simply one of several initial means to ultimately attaining the stated purpose. 

The way to answer the question I posed is outlined in Alma 32, starting at verse 21. Briefly, it suggest that, since you already have planted the seed of faith, that you let it grow by living the gospel, and see if it magnifies your soul and brings you closer to Christ. If it does, then you can have increasing faith that it is "true." And, if it is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet, and the things you have concerns about regarding him are, for all intents and purposes, not relevant.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I admit I may have been thinking about it the wrong way- looking at things as if I must figure everything out versus seeing the work of God in people's lives, including mine. But I have to say I've never felt better about spiritual experiences, felt more able to follow Christ, than through things that have happened being LDS. Seeing the fruit of the Church is hard to deny, I think. How could a church be so wrong yet enable people to do so much right?

I'll have to try that, considering starting from the other angle didn't work before. XD It does make more sense to do that.

Thank you, Wade!

[Dani]

On 1/3/2018 at 9:41 AM, anatess2 said:

Hi @Dani!

LDS convert from Roman Catholic here.  Just a few things that might nudge you in the right direction.  Well... first off... nobody can really answer your question of "Should I come back to Church" but you.  The Mormons would, of course, say, "YES!".  The non-Mormons would, of course, say, "Are you nuts?  Didn't you learn the first time?".  Unfortunately, the way to know the answer is a way you rejected - through your emotions.  That's how the Holy Spirit speaks.  I mean, did you expect something else?  Sure, there are those people in God's Kingdom that get giant revelations - like Paul getting a Vision of Christ, Mary getting visited by the Angel, Joseph Smith seeing God.  But if you're waiting for those kinds of revelations... well, let's just say the chances of that happening is zero to negative, especially where faith is lacking.  So, you're going to have to learn to identify the voice of the Spirit.  And He doesn't use the regular means of communication like a radio broadcast or a text on your phone or even appear infront of you talking to you face-to-face or even some miraculous thing of some kind.  No, the way the Holy Spirit speaks is through emotions and impressions.  This is different for everybody depending on how one processes information.  A lot of charismatic folks talk about a "burning in the bossom" kind of thing.  That's not how I would describe how the Spirit speaks to me.  The Spirit speaks to me through a "clicking of a puzzle piece in my brain" kind of feeling where my brain was foggy before then something clicks and that brings my brain into a peaceful state.  This would happen even if my question was not answered.  But, like I said, it is different for everybody and I think it's because everyone has a different way of processing information and the Spirit uses that way to speak to us.  You've felt the Spirit before I'm sure.  You just didn't trust it.

Anyway, as to the question of whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet... well, nobody can answer that but the Spirit.  So you'll have to ask him and figure it out.  In any case, in my opinion, there are only 2 possibilities - Jesus gave the keys of the Church to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and they in turn handed the keys to the Bishops before they died.  That would be the claim of the Catholic Church.  If this is true, then the Catholic Church is the true Church (then you'll have to figure out which Catholic Church after the schism has the authority).  If Apostolic Authority did not transfer to Bishops, then a Great Apostasy happened as there is no Priesthood Authority left on the earth after John the Revelator died.  Even the Catholic Church does not claim any other Apostle ordained after John.  If so, then it makes it possible for the Apostolic Authority to have been restored when Peter, James, and John ordained Joseph Smith with Apostolic Authority.  Now, which is true?  Nobody can prove that to you.  You'll have to ask God.

As to the question of "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".  You need to read the entire chapter to get context.  I'll copy the relevant verses here:

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So, verses 15, 16, and 17, we see here that Peter testified of Christ as the Son of God.  That's what he knows to be true.  Jesus validated the testimony stating that it is not by mortal means that Peter gained this testimony but rather, the testimony was revealed to him by God (which is exactly what it means to have a testimony - a personal revelation from God).  Jesus then instructed Peter that it is upon this ROCK that Jesus will build his Church.  What is the rock?  It is THAT REVELATION that Jesus is the Son of God.  That's the Rock from which the Church is built.  And it is THAT REVELATION that Jesus is the Son of God that the gates of hell cannot stop from being revealed to those who are in hell - those that have died before Jesus fulfilled his mission and his atoning sacrifice.  These verses reveals to us that Death is not the final chance for us to repent and follow Christ.  The revelation that Jesus is the Son of God can be attained even after one has died.  This means that even when one is living in an era or a place where there is Apostasy - that is, the person lived his entire life without ever hearing the name Jesus or without having seen a page of scripture or not having met a person with the authority to baptize him into the Kingdom of God - his death does not keep him in hell without a chance for repentanceit.  Rather, the atoning sacrifice of Christ is still available to him and he can still gain a testimony of Christ and accept Christ's atonement, repent, and come to Christ.

Anyway, this has gotten too long so I'm going to end it here.  Hope this helps.

Nice to hear from you! It's hard for me to trust the emotions and feelings- before my conversion to Christ (years before I became a Mormon), I was a very cynical atheist, and that still catches up with me from time to time. God has basically had to smack me over the head, as I said in my op. I'm trying to get over that, but being human sucks sometimes. 

I think when the Spirit speaks to me,  it seems to be a very strong feeling, like an instinct almost or a very big relief. 

My family was Catholic basically until my generation. My grandpa never converted from his Baptist faith, but my mom and her siblings were raised in the Catholic Church. She raised my brother and I without religion so we would be "seekers," but after I left my previous church, I was left with two options: join the LDS Church like I'd thought, or become a Catholic. After realizing problems with most of the major denominations and their lack of authority, I began to think that there are really only two options. I had a friend who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy around the same time I became Mormon, and it seemed that even between the Catholic and the Orthodox, their authority claims were muddled at best!

I appreciate the post. Having some pretty deep doubts was painful, because if God is the loving God I know He has to be, then the LDS Plan of Salvation is the only way that that is fulfilled. I let myself think maybe he was the horrible, vengeful God some churches teach, but that's not an easy way to live when you see the flawed but well meaning people around you, you know?

It definitely does help, thank you very much! Because of my family's strong background in Catholicism, it's nice  to hear from a former Roman Catholic!

[Dani]

On 1/3/2018 at 10:01 AM, lostinwater said:

Thanks for posting this.  Just my opinion - and in the interests of full disclosure, i am less active - as in mostly inactive.  

But i feel there is a healthy middle ground between total acceptance and total derision.  i hate this idea that those are the only two choices.  It just creates this sense of separation, alienation, and persecution that i feel is the wrongful justification of so much spite, hatred, cruelty, and misunderstanding.   People will disagree - and that's fine - but i know i could never quite make sense of a lot of things.  Call it a lack of faith, or not asking for answers in the right way - but there are some things that just feel wrong to me.  But i don't think things like this (ie that you are unwilling/unable to change your view on, even after earnest soul searching) mean you can't participate in the things that are good for you - though i recommend a lot of self introspection and honesty in determining what is good for you in the church and what is not.  i think generally we can distinguish between the things we don't like but know we need and the things that are toxic to our emotional well-being - and that's what i mean.

Religion i think is meant to draw people to God and Jesus, not be an end in and of itself - so to the extent your religion of choice accomplishes that, i think you are doing what Jesus would want you to.  

Years before I converted, I wished the Church were true. The Mormons I knew seemed to love their Church, and the doctrine seemed so amazing, but it was just instinctively not an option because of where and how I was raised (until I was old enough to have a mind of my own). I said once before I started considering the Church that if I were an atheist, came to the conclusion that God didn't exist, I would still like to be a Mormon because of the cultural aspect, but because I believed God and Christ existed and were real, I couldn't be in a Church that was so wrong. That was the mindset I was in when I left.

It sounds screwed up, I know, but I've come to realize after a couple friends who were in my YSA branch at college when I first joined later confessed that they weren't sure they believed, I'm not alone.

It's just coming from a black/white thinking in my previous fundamentalist church, it's hard to think that if it's working in drawing me closer to Christ, even if I don't agree or understand. But I think that sentiment is so important now.

Thank you for your input!

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

I don't think he was an evil or an awful man by any means. None of us is perfect. But when someone muddies the waters by going line by line with every awful thing he was accused of, it's just hard to offer an explanation because I tend to freeze up in those types of situations.

And your explanation of the scriptures you quoted is interesting. I've heard John 12:24 before, but it makes sense to put in the context of Ephesians 1:10!

I agree, negativity is not conducive to a very open discussion. The advantage the adversary finds in focusing on accusations (see Revelation 12:10) is that they have yet to be proven -- they represent the antithesis of faith, which is doubt. But too often they are presented as fact, which they aren't.

[seashmore]

On January 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM, Dani said:

I'm from Missouri, so Nauvoo, Carthage, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Independence, Liberty, etc, are within a 3-4 hour drive, and everything felt right.

Then Winter Quarters (Omaha) and the Kanesville Tabernacle (Council Bluffs, IA) might be within a similar distance. Once it warms up, if you can, take a trip. (Give me a couple weeks notice and I'll even meet you there.)

The sister missionaries at the WQ Trail Center are always helpful, and start every tour at a replica of the Nauvoo temple followed by a bust of Joseph Smith and their testimony of the First Vision. Also, it's location directly across the street from the temple and cemetery provide an ideal atmosphere for spiritual experiences. It's one of the most underrated church history sites, imho. (maybe it's the lackluster parking, who knows?) 

The Kanesville Tabernacle is the place where Brigham Young was sustained as the second prophet of the Church. Whether you visit them or just read about them, these two church history sites may help you secure a testimony of Joseph Smith's role as the Prophet of the Restoration, even though the bulk of the tour/s are about the time just after his death.

Edited January 14, 2018 by seashmore