Joseph Smith Papers

[paracaidista508]

15 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

This is perhaps the biggest problem I am facing on this website.  People assume I am saying the church is wrong because of blah blah, that is absolutely 100% not true.  If something is inconsistent and I want further information on it, that shouldn't be a problem.  I am tired of the defensive attacks from (probably well meaning) LDS members saying things like 'oh so the whole church is false then, you got your answer' its a very petty and childish attitude.

You are exactly right...you are not permitted to challenge the church on anything. When I was growing up, if I brought up things  like you have my parents would chew me out and tell me to just accept it and move on. Just like you get here in many cases.

Edited February 9, 2018 by paracaidista508

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, paracaidista508 said:

You are exactly right...you are not permitted to challenge the church on anything. When I was growing up, if I brought up things  like you have my parents would chew me out and tell me to just accept it and move on. Just like you get here in many cases.

The LDS faith stated with asking questions and seeking answers from the best source (God).  I'm sorry your parents chewed you out for doing just that-- they were extremely wrong in that regard.  I'm sorry they error'd so.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[NeedleinA]

39 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

You are exactly right...you are not permitted to challenge the church on anything...Just like you get here in many cases.

Ask any question you want here, I personally have zero issue with it, nor do I believe anyone else does quite frankly.
The questions are not the issue, it is the tone, insinuations and accusations that tend to follow said questions that usually cause the sticking points. Please don't confuse the two here, they are two completely separate issues.

Approach 1: "Hi everyone, I found "x" in my studies, there appears to be a conflict. Can anyone help me better understand "x"? Thank you
Approach 2: "Hi everyone, I found "x" in my studies, there is a conflict, I know it. I can't trust the church, they are dishonest about "x". (<----ish)

One approach gets you a variety of helpful members contributing.
The other approach (especially if used over and over) gets you less of a variety of helpful members contributing and a group of people that are simply tired of hearing and hand holding Approach 2.

Change the tone for the better and see if the responses don't also change in your favor.

[Guest MormonGator]

59 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

You are exactly right...you are not permitted to challenge the church on anything. When I was growing up, if I brought up things  like you have my parents would chew me out and tell me to just accept it and move on. Just like you get here in many cases.

 Sorry it happened to you. 

56 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The LDS faith stated with asking questions and seeking answers from the best source (God).  

My thoughts exactly. 

My rule of thumb: If you are frightened by truth, than you tell the person not to ask questions/do research/investigate. If you are confident in the truth, you say "Knock yourself out."

it's also like this-a cheating girlfriend won't let you look at her cell phone. A faithful boyfriend has no problem giving it to you than taking a nap.  

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by MormonGator

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, paracaidista508 said:

You are exactly right...you are not permitted to challenge the church on anything. When I was growing up, if I brought up things  like you have my parents would chew me out and tell me to just accept it and move on. Just like you get here in many cases.

This is only from your experience.  I have not experienced such things.

This is my advice:  If people are getting offended by your questions, there are 3 possibilities - 1.) "they" don't like being questioned, 2.) "you" need to change the way you ask the questions., 3.) you misunderstood the tone of the responses to your questions.  Either way, the easiest way to find out if they just don't like being questioned or they are "triggered" by the way you ask the question is to.... tat-tada, try changing the way you ask the questions.  This would, of course, require some humility and admit the possibility that your manner of questioning may not be conducive to open discussion.  Or, you can just ignore the responses you consider negative (misunderstood or not) and respond only to the positive ones so the conversation moves forward - you can't change other people, you can only change yourself.  Or, to get more bang for the buck, you can ignore the responses you consider negative and respond only to the positive ones while also applying some humility and reflecting on the way you communicate.

Anyway... I'm not the most "nice" in the way I communicate (cultural differences - Bisaya folks are very direct), but I try to be more conscious of the way I say things.  My journey towards learning has always been positive ones - although, I don't count my days as a rebellious teen-ager arguing with the priests and nuns in my Catholic school because, looking back, I was a full-of-myself-know-it-all-pompous-snit that needed to be put in her place.

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by anatess2

[Blossom76]

I think the other side of it is, "I have a real concern about something in church history/doctrine/whatever it is that I want to understand or that I am not okay with.  I have some facts in front of me saying XYZ,  I already know that I am probably going to be attacked for asking my questions/raising concerns so the way I ask is already defensive because previous interactions have shown me it will be".  

I can't ask the hard questions at church, honestly I think they'd probably ask me to leave if I did or at the bare minimum try their best to avoid me, I have already experienced this, its not nice and I don't want to go through it again.  There is a very strong culture in mormonism of not asking questions and being chastised for it or even being called anti-mormon if you do.  Is it everyone's experience, probably not, but it is a large majority and needs to be acknowledged.

And in all honesty what I am looking for when I see things I find questionable about the church is simply "But I don't have to be okay with this right?"

Edited February 9, 2018 by Blossom76

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

And in all honesty what I am looking for when I see things I find questionable about the church is simply "But I don't have to be okay with this right?"

What exactly do you mean by "be okay with this"?

LDS don't believe anyone besides Christ to be perfect.  A person can be 100% LDS in good standing and believe church history records many mistakes made by men-- in fact that's pretty much the definition of history.  

There's also the importance of proper communication and understanding before judging.  And always forgiveness when another person inserts their foot in their mouth (as we hope they will likewise forgive us).

[Blossom76]

@Jane_Doe I mean 'I don't have to be okay' with things I see in history that I find questionable, I need to know that I can say 'yeah that stuff is crazy, that stuff is weird' but I can look at it and say 'no thank you' and still be allowed to be mormon and accepted by the church.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Blossom76

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I mean 'I don't have to be okay' with things I see in history that I find questionable, I need to know that I can say 'yeah that stuff is crazy, that stuff is weird' but I can look at it and say 'no thank you' and still be allowed to be mormon and accepted by the church.

It depends on subject you're talking about.  

Example group #1)  believing that the Book of Mormon is scripture is a pretty big non-negotiable in the LDS faith.  Likewise believing that Joseph Smith was a prophet (which is NOT saying he was perfect).  A person can still attend LDS church without believing these, but they are major points of the faith.

Example group #2) Now does that mean a person needs to be okay with everything in history or think that church leaders never made a mistake?  Heck no!  Mistakes are documented all over.  Like I for one, believe that Joseph Smith totally struggled with the sin of pride (he and I have that in common).  I can totally say that and totally be LDS 100% in good standing. 

Many (if not vast majority of) historical things fall into group #2.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[bytebear]

8 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

@Jane_Doe I mean 'I don't have to be okay' with things I see in history that I find questionable, I need to know that I can say 'yeah that stuff is crazy, that stuff is weird' but I can look at it and say 'no thank you' and still be allowed to be mormon and accepted by the church.

I think as you study church history, you'll end up being more like, "No, that's not how it happened.  Here are the details..." or "Oh, yeah, John Bennett was using the new concept of plural marriage to talk women into sleeping with him, so Joseph Smith had to deal with that while at the same time trying to help people understand what the Lord was asking of him.  And it didn't help with Bennett turned against the church, and made up all sorts of stories about what was going on." 

As you learn the details of why, you'll become an expert.  And you'll be the one telling new investigators what's up when they come with questions.

[NeedleinA]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

There is a very strong culture in mormonism of not asking questions and being chastised for it*...
Is it everyone's experience, probably not, but it is a large majority** and needs to be acknowledged.

* You proved my point once again. Is it possible to make a post that doesn't contain a criticism/complaint/accusation about us, the Church or the doctrine?
**Based on what accredited study or poll? Please do share. After decades in the Church I've never once seen or been part of any survey to back up your claim.

Edited February 9, 2018 by NeedleinA

[Blossom76]

3 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

* You proved my point once again. Is it possible to make a post that doesn't contain a criticism/complaint/accusation about us, the Church or the doctrine?
**Based on what accredited study or poll? Please do share. After decades in the Church I've never once seen or been part of any survey to back up your claim.

Wow! Seriously???? ? 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

There is a very strong culture in mormonism of not asking questions and being chastised for it or even being called anti-mormon if you do.  Is it everyone's experience, probably not, but it is a large majority and needs to be acknowledged.

As an adult, I have not found that to be the case. Generally speaking, questions are not discouraged. Loaded questions are frowned on, and for good reason, but sincere questions are rarely looked at badly. They may cause awkward embarrassment at times, especially if the person being asked doesn't know the answer and is embarrassed to admit it. But being chastised simply for asking sincere questions? Not in my adult experience.

[Blossom76]

44 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

* You proved my point once again. Is it possible to make a post that doesn't contain a criticism/complaint/accusation about us, the Church or the doctrine?
**Based on what accredited study or poll? Please do share. After decades in the Church I've never once seen or been part of any survey to back up your claim.

@NeedleinA  Perhaps it would do you some good to see it from the investigators point of view?

We as investigators are told

Your baptism is invalid - only the LDS church have the authority to baptise on the earth 

We are the only true and living church on the face of the earth - your church you belong to now and every other church on earth is wrong

Big claims, very big claims, and also if you think about it from the investigators point of view - highly insulting claims.

The church can't make claims like this and expect people not to question/criticise those claims and that authority and then ask for proof.

It is also not logical for members to expect investigators not to ask these questions and raise concerns and criticisms.

The LDS church insulted every single church on the face of the earth at the very beginning of its existence and it continues to do so by holding those claims, which is fine, if it is true and can be proven.  I shouldn't nor should anyone else be treated with unkindness for seeking said proof.

 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Blossom76

[NeedleinA]

8 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

Wow! Seriously???? ? 

Seriously. You made the claim "large majority", so where is the proof?

[Blossom76]

Just now, NeedleinA said:

Seriously. You made the claim "large majority", so where is the proof?

Well there is a lot of it on this forum for a start

[NeedleinA]

12 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

Well there is a lot of it on this forum for a start

So based on what you feel your personal experience here has been = large majority??

Edited February 10, 2018 by NeedleinA

[Jane_Doe]

Everyone, deep breaths and take a chill pill. 

Remember, if there's a poster that's wrecking your experience, we have an "ignore button".  Properly used, it can do wonders. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Blossom76]

22 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

So based on what you feel your personal experience here has been = large majority??

Not just here, at church as well, plus not everyone on this site says what they think in the forums, I have had a lot of private messages from many many many members on this site (yes faithful LDS members) agreeing that they see the same things as I do and have the same concerns but are too afraid to say it to anyone because they fear the consequences, some members have even told me that they are too afraid to even tell their wife/husband how they really feel.

[NeedleinA]

That solidifies it for me then. Anonymous messages from fearful members.  You win. Enjoy your night. 

[Blossom76]

2 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

That solidifies it for me then. Anonymous messages from fearful members.  You win. Enjoy your night. 

you need to grow up

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Everyone, deep breaths and take a chill pill. 

Remember, if there's a poster that's wrecking your experience, we have an "ignore button".  Properly used, it can do wonders. 

 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Remember, if there's a poster that's wrecking your experience, we have an "ignore button".  Properly used, it can do wonders. 

Best. Post. Ever. 

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Best. Post. Ever. 

Who is this “Jane_Doe” you keep quoting, and why do I never see any of her posts?

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Who is this “Jane_Doe” you keep quoting, and why do I never see any of her posts?

My favorite are the people who you've obviously blocked but still quote you. 

Edited February 10, 2018 by MormonGator