God in the old testament is really Jesus?

[truthseaker]

Ok so forgive me for sounding uneducated but I was reading this article and hoping you can give me some more information to read on the subject.

I have noticed a lot of LDS beliefs are very different from other churches, I think this might be another one.

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/scripture/old-testament/old-testament-god-disturbs-you/ 

Any further insight/evidence on this teaching would be highly appreciated.

Thank you

[Vort]

Not sure what further insight you're looking for, truthseaker. I think it's pretty much universal among Christian sects that they believe that Jehovah was and is God, i.e. Jesus Christ. Which part of that belief bothers you, and what do you think that Mormons believe or teach on these lines that differs from larger Christianity?

[truthseaker]

@VortI didn't say anything at all bothered me (I don't know where you got that impression from?).  

This is different from what I was taught growing up as a christian so I'm just trying to understand it.  

Yes I was taught Jesus is part of the trinity and therefore God, but I was taught that the God of the Old Testament is God the Father not Jesus.  So this is very different take on it, and also a very new viewpoint to me so I was hoping for some further information to read about it.

Edited March 14, 2018 by truthseaker

[truthseaker]

@VortSo far I've found a lot of things different, the Book of Mormon itself is different, most christian church just use the bible. Families can be forever in heaven is different.  There are lots of things different.  Different is not bad, its just different.  And when you are new to it like me different sometimes needs some further explanation.

[Sunday21]

May wish to read Jesus the Christ.https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ?lang=eng

Deseret Books has an updated commentary because some aspects are out of date 

[jerome1232]

I actually thought this was a pretty universal belief amongst mainstream christianity.

 

/shrug.

 

Out of curiosity what faith did you grow up in?

Edited March 14, 2018 by jerome1232

[Sunday21]

@Truth_Seeker

These scriptures give some insight into the role of Jesus Christ. The links for these scriptures and others, including Bible references,, can be found:https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/jesus-christ-authority-of?lang=eng

all men might become subject unto him, 2 Ne. 9:5.

    I … will be their king, 2 Ne. 10:14.

    Christ was the God, the Father of all things, Mosiah 7:27.

    God himself shall come down, Mosiah 15:1.

    Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, Hel. 14:12.

    I am he that gave the law, 3 Ne. 15:5.

    This much did the Father command me, 3 Ne. 15:16 (20:14).

Edited March 15, 2018 by Sunday21

[zil]

Quote

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Christ has always, regardless of the age, been the mediator between God and men - representing God to us, and us to God.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where, but somewhere out there is a talk / article about this fact - that the Father only very rarely has made appearances to man, and then for the purpose of introducing his Son, and that otherwise, it is the Son who speaks to man, telling us what the Father wishes us to know (often speaking as if he were the Father - something referred to as "Divine Investiture").

[person0]

Gospel Classics: The Father and the Son

[anatess2]

8 hours ago, truthseaker said:

Yes I was taught Jesus is part of the trinity and therefore God, but I was taught that the God of the Old Testament is God the Father not Jesus.  So this is very different take on it, and also a very new viewpoint to me so I was hoping for some further information to read about it.

 

3 hours ago, jerome1232 said:

I actually thought this was a pretty universal belief amongst mainstream christianity.

 

It is not.  God the Father being the God "speaking" before Christ's birth in Bethlehem is the universal belief among Trinitarians.  Christ is eternally begotten.  That means that he is not created ex nihilo in Bethlehem, he is an eternal being that has always existed.  But his birth to Mary is believed to be when He started His interaction with man.

Edited March 14, 2018 by anatess2

[person0]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

 

It is not.  God the Father being the God "speaking" before Christ's birth in Bethlehem is the universal belief among Trinitarians.  Christ is eternally begotten.  That means that he is not created ex nihilo in Bethlehem, he is an eternal being that has always existed.  But his birth to Mary is believed to be when He started His interaction with man.

The Trinity (almost) :

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

 

It is not.  God the Father being the God "speaking" before Christ's birth in Bethlehem is the universal belief among Trinitarians.  Christ is eternally begotten.  That means that he is not created ex nihilo in Bethlehem, he is an eternal being that has always existed.  But his birth to Mary is believed to be when He started His interaction with man.

Seeking to make sure I understand you right: Trinitarian believe that the Father (and not the Son) was doing all the talking in the OT, and the Son only comes into interaction come being born of Mary?

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, truthseaker said:

Ok so forgive me for sounding uneducated but I was reading this article and hoping you can give me some more information to read on the subject.

I have noticed a lot of LDS beliefs are very different from other churches, I think this might be another one.

https://mormonhub.com/blog/faith/scripture/old-testament/old-testament-god-disturbs-you/ 

Any further insight/evidence on this teaching would be highly appreciated.

Thank you

(Just in case this hasn't been addressed adequately)

LDS believe Christ is the mediator between mankind and the Father.  He always has been (OT & NT), & always will be.  Christ spoke with through the burning bush, being the mediator with Moses.  He's our mediator in 2018 too.  

The Father seldom speaks directly, and when He does its usually to the jest of "Behold, this is my beloved Son, in whom I'm well pleased.  Listen to Him."

[Vort]

10 hours ago, truthseaker said:

I don't know where you got that impression from?

I guess the fact that you were asking about it indicated to me that it was bothering you at some level. Sorry if my inference was wrong.

"Before Abraham was, I am." LDS take this scripture to mean, among other things, that Jesus was proclaiming himself to be the "I Am" that spoke with Moses -- that is, Jehovah.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Seeking to make sure I understand you right: Trinitarian believe that the Father (and not the Son) was doing all the talking in the OT, and the Son only comes into interaction come being born of Mary?

Yes.  In Trinitarian teaching, the Father is the creator and law-giver and the OT is all about the Father preparing man for the coming of Christ.  This is different from the LDS teaching that the OT is Christ, the creator and law-giver, preparing man for his mortal atoning mission. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

47 minutes ago, Vort said:

I guess the fact that you were asking about it indicated to me that it was bothering you at some level. Sorry if my inference was wrong.

"Before Abraham was, I am." LDS take this scripture to mean, among other things, that Jesus was proclaiming himself to be the "I Am" that spoke with Moses -- that is, Jehovah.

Interestingly, this is one of the verses that Trinitarians use to support the Trinity.  This is Christ declaring that He is God (and as there is only one God, then Christ must be One with the Father).  This also supports the Trinitarian belief that Christ is eternally begotten - that is, he was not created ex-nihilo in Bethlehem like any other person would be at their birth.

This is one of those times where I had to re-think a lot of my Trinitarian background when I considered the LDS teaching of the Godhead.

[Jane_Doe]

34 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Interestingly, this is one of the verses that Trinitarians use to support the Trinity.  This is Christ declaring that He is God (and as there is only one God, then Christ must be One with the Father).  This also supports the Trinitarian belief that Christ is eternally begotten - that is, he was not created ex-nihilo in Bethlehem like any other person would be at their birth.

This is one of those times where I had to re-think a lot of my Trinitarian background when I considered the LDS teaching of the Godhead.

I find it very interesting how LDS and Trinitarians cite pretty much the same verses as explanations to their beliefs.

[mordorbund]

4 hours ago, person0 said:

Gospel Classics: The Father and the Son

Good stuff. We should probably also share The Living Christ.

[Guest]

Quote

It is almost superfluous to suggest that those who seek the truth and desire understanding will, by instinct, reserve judgment on issues they may not understand (as, for instance, that Christ is both the Father and the Son; or that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God in a sense far greater than merely being one in purpose) until the mystery of godliness on whatever point is involved, has been set forth in full.

-- Bruce R. McConkie, The Promised Messiah

If the beginning of wisdom is "I don't know", then I'm fully confident that I DON'T KNOW what the bolded portion is referring to.  But it seems to indicate that there is a portion of the doctrine of the Trinity that is true that we don't quite understand, but as Mormons we tend to discount anyway. 

But by other prophetic pronouncements we also know that a portion of the Trinity doctrine is false.

Quote

If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man.

 -- Joseph Smith Jr.  King Follett Discourse

So, we know some things.  We don't know others.  Allow me a moment to recover from my lack of surprise.

I think it is fairly common for us to completely dismiss the Trinity as a doctrine because there is too much that it does not explain and too much that it conflicts with.  And it is flat out incomprehensible.  But we also have to admit that there are aspects of our doctrine of the Godhead that have not been fully revealed that appear to be addressed by a Trinity-like belief.  The complete truth may simply be incomprehensible to the mortal mind.  And that is why we don't have it fully revealed.  But there seems to be more to it than Mormons commonly think.

[jerome1232]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

It is not.  God the Father being the God "speaking" before Christ's birth in Bethlehem is the universal belief among Trinitarians.  Christ is eternally begotten.  That means that he is not created ex nihilo in Bethlehem, he is an eternal being that has always existed.  But his birth to Mary is believed to be when He started His interaction with man.

Hmmm, that is interesting. I swear we have generic "Children's bibles" that refer to God in the OT as just "Jesus" and I've heard my niece and nephews who are Southern Baptists also use this terminology, they also usually say that "Jesus created the earth".

Likely they are just used to calling God Jesus and I am recalling that children's bible incorrectly. Or perhaps Catholicism differs from Southern Baptists on this?

[truthseaker]

8 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Seeking to make sure I understand you right: Trinitarian believe that the Father (and not the Son) was doing all the talking in the OT, and the Son only comes into interaction come being born of Mary?

I was taught that it was the father speaking in the OT, the world was created through Jesus (in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God etc all things were created through him without him nothing was made) so Jesus was always there (eternal like God) but Jesus didn't interact with the Human race until being born of the virgin Mary.

[truthseaker]

13 hours ago, jerome1232 said:

I actually thought this was a pretty universal belief amongst mainstream christianity.

 

/shrug.

 

Out of curiosity what faith did you grow up in?

Just our local Christian Church, not AOG but similar

[person0]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

in a sense far greater than merely being one in purpose

Personally, I think that one in power, one in knowledge, one in authority, one in etc, etc, etc. . . would fulfill that definition.  One in purpose is just one thing.  Theoretically even we can, to an extent, become one in purpose with God during mortality, such as Nephi's experience in Helaman 10.  I do think that in general to simplify explanation, members of the Church refer to one in purpose as the all inclusive statement of the other oneness characteristics.  I would say that Elder McConkie was just making it clear that that statement alone is insufficient to describe the fullness of the relationship between the three.  Especially considering that Joseph Smith taught the following:

Quote

2 Let us here observe, that three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

3 First, The idea that he actually exists.

4 Secondly, A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes.

5 Thirdly, An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will.—For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding, it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Lectures on Faith 3: 2-5)

I would say that oneness with the other members of the Godhead is included within that statement.

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, jerome1232 said:

Hmmm, that is interesting. I swear we have generic "Children's bibles" that refer to God in the OT as just "Jesus" and I've heard my niece and nephews who are Southern Baptists also use this terminology, they also usually say that "Jesus created the earth".

Likely they are just used to calling God Jesus and I am recalling that children's bible incorrectly. Or perhaps Catholicism differs from Southern Baptists on this?

Southern Baptists, like all protestants are Trinitarians.  All Trinitarians believe the same about the different roles of God the Father and God the Son.

[truthseaker]

On 15/03/2018 at 3:17 AM, Jane_Doe said:

I find it very interesting how LDS and Trinitarians cite pretty much the same verses as explanations to their beliefs.

That is interesting isn't it. A lot of different faiths use the same proof texts to explain totally different beliefs.