Repentance after death

[Colirio]

47 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Okay, one question. Can you make this scripture fit THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST AS TAUGHT BY THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS?

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Yes. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Colirio

[The Folk Prophet]

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens."

-Joseph Smith

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens."

-Joseph Smith

TFP cant get over his belief that there are whoremongers in heaven. A li'l clue- the whoremongers arent in heaven, they are in the lake of fire and brimstone..

[The Folk Prophet]

Joseph Smith said:

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens."

--------> by Joseph Smith <---------

[Rob Osborn]

I find it troubling that with so many witnesses in scripture that people can somehow believe that the wicked can be saved in heaven without repentance. I am not sure if its just bad doctrine in our church or faulty understanding of doctrine. I sort of sway to the belief its both.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[The Folk Prophet]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find it troubling that with so many witnesses in scripture that people can somehow believe that the wicked can be saved in heaven

Yeah. Those pesky prophets and apostles. And Joseph Smith too! Very troubling. Believing the whoremongers will be in the Telestial kingdom! (Rob's dishonest meaning when he says "heaven".) Just like it says in D&C 76. How shocking. How dismaying.

Are you purposefully using the word "heaven" to mean something different than what the rest of us mean?

We mean the Celestial Kingdom when we say "heaven". And no one believes the unrepentant wicked will be in the Celestial Kingdom. You twist the meaning to include the Telestial Kingdom without specifying that you are doing so and then accuse others based on that misleading application of the word.

And then you call me a liar. 

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The binary choice, as Christ mentions, is either repent and be baptized and be found on the right hand of God to receive eternal life, or, remain unrepentant and be found on the left hand of God to be cast out with the devil and his angels into the lake of fire and brimstone. Finding the correct choice is doing works of righteousness- choosing the right. That funnels man inevitably towards the correct and authoritive ordinance of repentance and baptism. Then are you in the path leading to eternal life. There is no other way to be ferreted out and saved from hell.

Do you understand and do you believe in justice?  and that G-d is a just G-d?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Yeah. Those pesky prophets and apostles. And Joseph Smith too! Very troubling. Believing the whoremongers will be in the Telestial kingdom! (Rob's dishonest meaning when he says "heaven".) Just like it says in D&C 76. How shocking. How dismaying.

Are you purposefully using the word "heaven" to mean something different than what the rest of us mean?

We mean the Celestial Kingdom when we say "heaven". And no one believes the unrepentant wicked will be in the Celestial Kingdom. You twist the meaning to include the Telestial Kingdom without specifying that you are doing so and then accuse others based on that misleading application of the word.

And then you call me a liar. 

So then, you believe God saves some of his children in some strange place outside of heaven. Thats a new doctrine. Where is that teaching found?

[Rob Osborn]

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Do you understand and do you believe in justice?  and that G-d is a just G-d?

 

The Traveler

Yes, its why the unrepentant will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. All the rest will receive eternal life because they repent and turn unto God.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So then, you believe God saves some of his children in some strange place outside of heaven. Thats a new doctrine. Where is that teaching found?

It's a little section we call D&C 76. You might have read it once or twice. Those "strange" places are given names there so it's no longer "strange" to us. The words use are "Telestial" and "Terrestrial" and they are specifically referred to as "glory". The word "heaven" or "heavenly" is used a fair amount, but the only time it's used in reference to one of these "strange" places is where it says "These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all", and "the city of the living God, the heavenly place." This is not in reference to the "strange" places of Telestial and Terrestrial glory, but rather of the "Celestial" glory. It also teaches us that Christ "saves" all of his works except the sons or perdition. So, you see, the wicked whoremongers and murders are, indeed, "saved" in the "Telestial" kingdom, but their names are not "written in heaven", and where the God and Christ dwell they cannot come. Now, granted, the vision itself is referred to as "heavenly" throughout, and so it might be reasonable to presume that the "Telestial" and "Terrestrial" glories are part of the "heavenly" realm, and that is accurate if one clarifies what one is saying. Because, you see...words can be used in different ways in different times. I know that's a difficult concept for you. But the word "heaven" is a perfect example, as we can see in D&C 76. Sometimes it means just "the sky" and sometimes it means "from God" and sometimes it means "The celestial Glory" and sometimes it means "beautiful and lovely".

But when we in the church speak of "heaven" in general terms we mean the Celestial Kingdom. I suspect you full well know this. But you are trying your very best to twist meanings in order to make others look foolish and build your philosophy up. Everyone sees through that because we already know what we mean when we say "heaven". So when you use the term "heaven" to include the telestial and terrestrial glories and don't specify that you're using is in a slightly different way than the common understanding, and then draw conclusions as if they're factual based on that misleading reality, it's not like anyone reads that and says to themselves, "Oh...well...yeah. God wouldn't save anyone in heaven if they were an unrepentant whoremonger...so that means there must be no Telestial glory to be saved to after all. Rob is right!" Instead what everyone says to themselves is, "God doesn't save anyone to the Celestial Kingdom if they're an unrepentant whoremonger. Rob's using the generic term "heaven" to try and twist things around. God obviously saves whoremongers to the Telestial glory because it's right there in black and white in D&C 76. And just as the gospel teaches, if they repent in this life their sins are remembered no more, and if they repent in the afterlife before judgment day then they may, depending on various unknowns that we leave to God, still be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom. And everyone may have to repent eventually for any degree of Glory, but those who have not done so during their probationary state (whatever that includes) will still pay the price of their sins and then receive a reward according to their works. Which reward is clearly laid out in D&C 76. What on earth is Rob smoking that he cannot seem to understand this?"

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's a little section we call D&C 76. You might have read it once or twice. Those "strange" places are given names there so it's no longer "strange" to us. The words use are "Telestial" and "Terrestrial" and they are specifically referred to as "glory". The word "heaven" or "heavenly" is used a fair amount, but the only time it's used in reference to one of these "strange" places is where it says "These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all", and "the city of the living God, the heavenly place." This is not in reference to the "strange" places of Telestial and Terrestrial glory, but rather of the "Celestial" glory. It also teaches us that Christ "saves" all of his works except the sons or perdition. So, you see, the wicked whoremongers and murders are, indeed, "saved" in the "Telestial" kingdom, but their names are not "written in heaven", and where the God and Christ dwell they cannot come. Now, granted, the vision itself is referred to as "heavenly" throughout, and so it might be reasonable to presume that the "Telestial" and "Terrestrial" glories are part of the "heavenly" realm, and that is accurate if one clarifies what one is saying. Because, you see...words can be used in different ways in different times. I know that's a difficult concept for you. But the word "heaven" is a perfect example, as we can see in D&C 76. Sometimes it means just "the sky" and sometimes it means "from God" and sometimes it means "The celestial Glory" and sometimes it means "beautiful and lovely".

But when we in the church speak of "heaven" in general terms we mean the Celestial Kingdom. I suspect you full well know this. But you are trying your very best to twist meanings in order to make others look foolish and build your philosophy up. Everyone sees through that because we already know what we mean when we say "heaven". So when you use the term "heaven" to include the telestial and terrestrial glories and don't specify that you're using is in a slightly different way than the common understanding, and then draw conclusions as if they're factual based on that misleading reality, it's not like anyone reads that and says to themselves, "Oh...well...yeah. God wouldn't save anyone in heaven if they were an unrepentant whoremonger...so that means there must be no Telestial glory to be saved to after all. Rob is right!" Instead what everyone says to themselves is, "God doesn't save anyone to the Celestial Kingdom if they're an unrepentant whoremonger. Rob's using the generic term "heaven" to try and twist things around. God obviously saves whoremongers to the Telestial glory because it's right there in black and white in D&C 76. And just as the gospel teaches, if they repent in this life their sins are remembered no more, and if they repent in the afterlife before judgment day then they may, depending on various unknowns that we leave to God, still be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom. And everyone may have to repent eventually for any degree of Glory, but those who have not done so during their probationary state (whatever that includes) will still pay the price of their sins and then receive a reward according to their works. Which reward is clearly laid out in D&C 76. What on earth is Rob smoking that he cannot seem to understand this?"

You see, I too believe the kingdom of heaven spoken of in scripture is the celestial kingdom. Thats why I was asking. Why? Because, at judment after the millennium thats all that will exist for the saved or the damned to go to- either the kingdom of heaven or to be cast into outer darkness. Its why scriptures like these only make sense with this understanding-

37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
            38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
            39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
            40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
            41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works. (Alma 11:37-41)

25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
            26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
            27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off. (Mosiah 27:25-27)

I didnt read anywhere in there where God saves the wicked whoremongers from hell. Only those who become sons and daughters through baptism are saved. And where are they saved? The kingdom of God. Everyone else is cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Rob Osborn]

The ultimate test however still remains of explaining this one scripture-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

There are only two outcomes- becoming righteous and receiving eternal life on the right hand of God or cast out with the devil and his angels. Im curious where whoremongers fit in here? The only possibility is that they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

You see, I too believe the kingdom of heaven spoken of in scripture is the celestial kingdom.

Yes, but you, as always ever so brilliant, believe that the word "heaven" must always be used in the exact same way -- except when you're twisting the meaning to suite your own corrupted view of the plan of salvation.

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Because, at judment after the millennium thats all that will exist for the saved or the damned to go to- either the kingdom of heaven or to be cast into outer darkness.

Or go to the telestial kingdom or terrestrial kingdom, as plainly laid out in D&C 76.

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I didnt read anywhere in there where God saves the wicked whoremongers from hell. 

Except very plainly stated it D&C 76. Which very plainly also used the term "save" in a different way. This has all been plainly explained to you repeatedly. You call others obtuse, but it's not others who can't seem to understand that the "saved" has to include a "from" and has no meaning on it's own, and there are clearly implied and easy to infer "froms" in both discussions of salvation. Saved "from" outer darkness is not the same as saved "saved" from the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms. And you're the only one injecting the false usage of "heaven" into the conversation with your nonsense, "saved from heaven" bull. But yes, if you use heaven that broadly then it is saved from a lower heaven. Very plainly. Very obviously.

Your inability (obtuseness) to understand this very basic idea behind the usage of the word "saved "is at the root of your mistaken view. You can call others obtuse all you want, but when someone takes a word and declares, "THIS WORD CAN ONLY EVERY MEAN EXACTLY WHAT I SAY IT MEANS, AND NO ONE EVER USED THE WORD IN A DIFFERENT WAY...EVER!!!" it's pretty obvious who's being obtuse.

 

[The Folk Prophet]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The ultimate test however still remains of explaining this one scripture-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

There are only two outcomes- becoming righteous and receiving eternal life on the right hand of God or cast out with the devil and his angels. Im curious where whoremongers fit in here? The only possibility is that they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. 

This is also very easy to explain and understand, as done by Joseph Smith in the quote I have provided and you ignored:

“The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers.”

“There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

“A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. …

“… Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.”

This isn't complicated. You just aren't willing to trust that Joseph Smith and our living prophets know what they're talking about on this matter.

Edited April 19, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This is also very easy to explain and understand, as done by Joseph Smith in the quote I have provided and you ignored:

“The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits, where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers.”

“There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

“A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. …

“… Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone.”

This isn't complicated. You just aren't willing to trust that Joseph Smith and our living prophets know what they're talking about on this matter.

The scripture I quoted is after resurrection. Only two outcomes- either to receive eternal life or be cast out to go with the devil and his angels.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The scripture I quoted is after resurrection. Only two outcomes- either to receive eternal life or be cast out to go with the devil and his angels.

Except Joseph clearly disagreed with that -- as I've quoted to you many times now and won't bother to again since you'll just pig-headedly blow it off. But Joseph taught what he taught. The prophets teach what they teach. There are not only two outcomes. That is plain in all the teachings of the living prophets and apostles. Your interpretation of the scriptures does not align with theirs.

They're smarter than you, have more direct access to God's will for the church than you, and have the authority to proclaim and preach His doctrine, unlike you.

As I've said, and I'll say again...go get them to sign off on your theories, as you claim you're destined to do, and then we'll all jump right on board. Until then, you're out of sync. It's that simple.

[Rob Osborn]

I have never met anyone who can justify this scripture with our current understanding of the three worlds of glory. I have had people give every excuse in the book to somehow make it fit. All fail miserably. I have heard everything from God was only speaking of the extremes on both ends of the spectrum to the lake of fire being a representation of the lower kingdoms. It all fails miserably though as it specifically states only two outcomes, not three, not four. It also states that the lake of fire is exclusively for the devil and his angels.

[wenglund]

18 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

If one does not fully repent and get baptized they cannot be saved- cannot be cleansed  through obedience to the "saving ordinances" and thus must be cast out with the devil and his angels. Many think one can be saved from hell eternally without repenting from all their sins. Thats a false doctrine- it absolutely isnt true. One must repent from "all" their sins and be cleansed through obedience to the saving ordinances of which include baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost.

I was looking for a yes or no answer. Would I be correct in assuming that you believe, yes, that unbaptized honorable men will receive the same fate as Sons of Perdition and mass murderers?

If so, then how are good works rewarded to those honorable men in heaven?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

28 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

 All fail miserably. 

According to the "wisdom"  of the great and powerful Rob Osborn.

[wenglund]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have never met anyone who can justify this scripture [to Rob's dogmatic satisfaction] with our current understanding of the three worlds of glory. 

Fixed it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

Now @wenglund, to be fair, and I'm sure this will surprise @Rob Osborn, because he thinks he knows what I think and believe, but he doesn't, but... The Book of Mormons' teachings by a plain reading do, indeed, contradict the later revelation on the plan of salvation. The Book of Mormon implies a whole heck of a lot of people are going to outer darkness. I have often had that thought in the past.

The problem isn't seeing the contradiction. Anyone intelligent enough would. It's how one resolves it -- or, rather, it's a consideration of whether it's even that important to resolve -- which I do not believe it is.*

Casting off later revelation and the teachings of our modern prophets and apostles, as Rob is wont to do, is not a very wise way to resolve the issue.

* What I mean by this is that we can trust the general intent of the teachings in the Book of Mormon, which are warnings to repent, without worrying about the conflict of "doctrine". We know we have been warned to repent by the prophets. Whether one resolves the issue by explaining away the contradictions with word definitions games or says the BoM prophets didn't have the full picture yet (line-upon-line revelation) or some other explanation is less important than two points that ARE important. 1. We listen to the counsel to repent and not delay that. 2. We don't lead others to confusion and to mistrust our living prophets and apostles.

Rob and I agree on 1#, I am sure.

#2 is where I feel he is wildly out of order. But even though we agree on point 1 in theory, I believe his philosophies are highly harmful in that regard as well and those philosophies would, if accepted by any individual, run the risk of moving said individual to worry less, if at all, about their immediate repentance. That is why I go after him so hard and why I will continue to go after him on this matter.

Edited April 19, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

53 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I was looking for a yes or no answer. Would I be correct in assuming that you believe, yes, that unbaptized honorable men will receive the same fate as Sons of Perdition and mass murderers?

If so, then how are good works rewarded to those honorable men in heaven?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

They suffer the same fate. Baptism is essential to salvation from hell. It is the only means that men can repent and be forgiven (cleansed).

[Rob Osborn]

42 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Fixed it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Take a go at the scripture.

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Now @wenglund, to be fair, and I'm sure this will surprise @Rob Osborn, because he thinks he knows what I think and believe, but he doesn't, but... The Book of Mormons' teachings by a plain reading do, indeed, contradict the later revelation on the plan of salvation. The Book of Mormon implies a whole heck of a lot of people are going to outer darkness. I have often had that thought in the past.

The problem isn't seeing the contradiction. Anyone intelligent enough would. It's how one resolves it -- or, rather, it's a consideration of whether it's even that important to resolve -- which I do not believe it is.*

Casting off later revelation and the teachings of our modern prophets and apostles, as Rob is wont to do, is not a very wise way to resolve the issue.

* What I mean by this is that we can trust the general intent of the teachings in the Book of Mormon, which are warnings to repent, without worrying about the conflict of "doctrine". We know we have been warned to repent by the prophets. Whether one resolves the issue by explaining away the contradictions with word definitions games or says the BoM prophets didn't have the full picture yet (line-upon-line revelation) or some other explanation is less important than two points that ARE important. 1. We listen to the counsel to repent and not delay that. 2. We don't lead others to confusion and to mistrust our living prophets and apostles.

Rob and I agree on 1#, I am sure.

#2 is where I feel he is wildly out of order. But even though we agree on point 1 in theory, I believe his philosophies are highly harmful in that regard as well and those philosophies would, if accepted by any individual, run the risk of moving said individual to worry less, if at all, about their immediate repentance. That is why I go after him so hard and why I will continue to go after him on this matter.

And yet I quote scripture from the D&C that comes after section 76 that is exactly what the BoM teaches.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The ultimate test however still remains of explaining this one scripture-

27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
            28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)

There are only two outcomes- becoming righteous and receiving eternal life on the right hand of God or cast out with the devil and his angels. Im curious where whoremongers fit in here? The only possibility is that they are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. 

Growing up my parents and teachers and other authority figures would speak to me in binary terms. They would say things like, "be safe and stay in the yard, and don't play in the street or you will get hit by a car," or "If you want to be successful, study hard and go to college, otherwise you will end up a bum," or "eating vegetables will make you strong, and eating sweets will make you sick," and "if you want to grow up tall and live long, then don't smoke because it will stunt your growth and cause you to die young," and on and on infinitude.

This made sense for several reasons. 1) My immature and fundamentalist mind lacked the capacity to deal effectively with nuances and relativity--in other words, I wasn't prepared to grasp the difference between general rules and absolutes  2) things were stated simply and briefly because my immature and fundamentalist mind lacked the patience for a lengthy and complex explanation. and 3) It was far more persuasive to me at the time, and perhaps even today, than the alternative. There may be other reasons, but that should suffice.

We also had family rules that were binary in nature, with firm punishments for disobedience: "pick up your room or you can't go out to play," or "be in by 10pm or you will lose your driving privilege," etc. etc." 

This was understandable as well for the same reasons.

However, when I became older, I was told things along the lines of D&C 76.  Fortunately, my mind had matured to where I could grasp the nuanced information and rules while still seeing the sense of the binary declarations.

Not everyone is equipped to make the developmental transition--which is why the binary declarations are still needed (hence, binary scriptures post D&C 76).

The purpose is to persuade men to do good and become better, and this in ways they are able to receive it. So, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 19, 2018 by wenglund