From a theological perspective, how far is too far when it comes to growing organs in labs and exploring human and animal cloning?

[FoolsMock]

Japan is exploring the ability of growing human organs in animals and cite the positive benefits that can come from this as reason for pressing on in this work.  If Japan is doing this, they aren't alone in exploring what can be done through this.  Human cloning continues to be something researched and explored.  When it comes to this sort of practice, theologically, how does Heavenly Father view this stuff?  Is this God's children learning beautiful things about life and how bodies work and discovering ways to help people?  Or is this mankind playing God in a way Heavenly Father does not approve of?

[person0]

In my mind, too far would involve researching at the expense of human life, including potential human life.  Abusing man's stewardship over the beasts of the earth through a continuous infliction of pain would also be too far.  In reality, everything hinges entirely on the actions and motives of each individual and research group.  I think it can be possible to study and research these things without any offense to God, by limiting ourselves via the appropriate moral and ethical lines.

[FoolsMock]

3 minutes ago, person0 said:

In my mind, too far would involve researching at the expense of human life, including potential human life.  Abusing man's stewardship over the beasts of the earth through a continuous infliction of pain would also be too far.  In reality, everything hinges entirely on the actions and motives of each individual and research group.  I think it can be possible to study and research these things without any offense to God, by limiting ourselves via the appropriate moral and ethical lines.

Does a human created through cloning have a soul?  If it does, does that mean God placed the soul in it and by extension approves of cloning? 

[Fether]

41 minutes ago, FoolsMock said:

Does a human created through cloning have a soul?  If it does, does that mean God placed the soul in it and by extension approves of cloning? 

Hope we never get to the point where we have to find out xD

[person0]

43 minutes ago, FoolsMock said:

Does a human created through cloning have a soul?  If it does, does that mean God placed the soul in it and by extension approves of cloning? 

I don't know of any successful human clone.  However, if one were to be successful, it would have to have a spirit.  Nothing can live without a spirit.

If mankind is successfully able to create a human clone, I am not sure that has anything to do with God's approval, even if the clone receives a spirit and lives.  A child born with fetal alcohol syndrome due to the abusive drinking of its mother, still receives a spirit; does that mean God approves of the abusive drinking habits of the mother?  No.  It means that the child came into being through a process within the laws of nature that God has established.  If human cloning ever becomes a reality, this would also be the case. As a result, we (as a people) would have no way to know of God's specific approval unless made known to us through His prophet.

Until such time as a prophet makes it known unto us, as long as currently known principles of morality and laws of God are not breached, individuals would not be held responsible for mistakes made in ignorance.  Therefore, as I mentioned in my previous answer, cloning research that adheres to known moral, ethical, and spiritual law, should be fine.

Drinking alcohol and using tobacco was fine, until it wasn't.  It became not fine once it was given as a commandment, revealed from God.  Anyone who did it prior to that was in no way guilty of sin.  The same principle would apply to pretty much anything else.

Edited April 16, 2018 by person0

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

Japan is exploring the ability of growing human organs in animals and cite the positive benefits that can come from this as reason for pressing on in this work.  If Japan is doing this, they aren't alone in exploring what can be done through this.  Human cloning continues to be something researched and explored.  When it comes to this sort of practice, theologically, how does Heavenly Father view this stuff?  Is this God's children learning beautiful things about life and how bodies work and discovering ways to help people?  Or is this mankind playing God in a way Heavenly Father does not approve of?

Its all wrong and God doesnt approve of it. The creation of life is not to be played around by lab technicians AT ALL. God has already given us the only way that life should be conceived into this world- through married husband and wife relations. 

[FoolsMock]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its all wrong and God doesnt approve of it. The creation of life is not to be played around by lab technicians AT ALL. God has already given us the only way that life should be conceived into this world- through married husband and wife relations. 

This is what I'm saying but person0, you raise good points that have me pondering the topic's question.  Everyone, thanks for the thoughts

[JohnsonJones]

I'm all for cloning if it can be done.  Religious excuses should be NO REASON to hold back legitimate science. 

I think the purposes of Heaven can be seen via pure science (not pseudoscience).  If we eventually are able to clone humans, than perhaps it will be for a purpose.  Perhaps it will be a way to allow more of the children of our Father to come to this earth in numbers or otherwise which we are unable to do currently.

In regards to progress with growing organs, miracles in healing and medicine occur in many ways.  Things that we do in medicine today (organ transplants, blood transfusions) may have been seen similarly by religious groups of yesteryear (and still are by some, as there are religions against blood transfusions), but I and others see it as the Lord bringing science and progress to make the lives of his children, or at least some of them, better in this life on this earth.

[zil]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm all for cloning if it can be done.  Religious excuses should be NO REASON to hold back legitimate science. 

I think the purposes of Heaven can be seen via pure science (not pseudoscience).

If that's cloning of humans, I recommend reading THIS, particularly this bit:

Quote

Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

[NeuroTypical]

It's not a problem until we grow something that votes democrat.  Then it's a problem.

[CV75]

17 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

Japan is exploring the ability of growing human organs in animals and cite the positive benefits that can come from this as reason for pressing on in this work.  If Japan is doing this, they aren't alone in exploring what can be done through this.  Human cloning continues to be something researched and explored.  When it comes to this sort of practice, theologically, how does Heavenly Father view this stuff?  Is this God's children learning beautiful things about life and how bodies work and discovering ways to help people?  Or is this mankind playing God in a way Heavenly Father does not approve of?

This and similar issues have been studied by the Church for a long, long time. Back in 1981 I was given an assignment by the Church to examine some topics having to do with genetic experimentation (I was by far not the only consultant nor the most expert), resulting in a couple of Church policies. The general attitude seemed to be that no matter how a child of God comes into mortality, the blessings of the Gospel are to be extended (that would be the theology). Like any science, obtaining knowledge is God-given and law-driven; it is whether the application is in line with the Lord's will that makes it a tool for good and/or evil. However, there are moral and ethical considerations, which is why these polices often recommend competent medical attention, prayer, and counseling with a priesthood leader in decision-making.

My opinion is that Adam's stewardship allows all sorts of genetic manipulation of all forms of life; it is nothing more than making hybrids and breeds which was done from the dawn of human history. If there is no spirit willing to inhabit an engineered body, or if God is not willing for a spirit to inhabit the body, there will be no viable organism. A spiritless organism is nothing more than a machine or an artificial intelligence, no matter how "alive" it may seem.

[person0]

34 minutes ago, zil said:

If that's cloning of humans, I recommend reading THIS, particularly this bit:

Quote

Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

Cloning, via a similar method to what was used when cloning Dolly the sheep, seems like it could potentially enable a male human who is sterile, and his wife, who is fertile, to give birth to a child that is biologically theirs, and still be within this purpose.  If you combine this technology with the slowly advancing technology of the artificial womb, then even if the mother, or both parents were sterile, they could be enabled to have biological children without using a surrogate mother (which the Church already recommends against doing).  Creepy to our current societal paradigm? Yes!  But not necessarily evil/wicked, unless the process used to achieve the science requires actions that are clearly against the commandments of God.

In my mind, the reality that many people will use certain scientific advancements for an illegitimate or wicked purpose is usually not reason enough to prevent the scientific advancement altogether.  So long as there is sufficient righteous use, and it can be accomplished in an ethical and moral way, it seems like it could be valuable to pursue such an advancement.  The internet is used by vast numbers of people for pornography, however, the good uses of it help billions of people.  Cloning might not help billions, but it could help enough in various ways to be worth it!

If it is indeed possible to be accomplished, it seems to me that there would probably be some eternal use of this type of technology/process.  From an extrapolation of what science has already achieved in the areas of cloning and the development of the artificial womb, it would not be too surprising to me to one day learn that the way God produced Adam's physical body was by cloning His own physical body using similar techniques.  Then, it might suddenly be more reasonable to literally suggest that Eve was created from Adam's rib [cell] by means of the same technique, hence becoming both literal and figurative.  Given that I personally prefer to reject the idea of God using evolutionary processes to develop the physical body of man, to me, cloning seems like a much preferable alternative.  Obviously, man's creation could just as easily be something entirely different, and the Lord could one day reveal that man must end this type of research.  Until then, I have a hard time coming up with reasons not to pursue it.

Note:  I'm not saying that I actually believe this is what God did/does, only that it seems to be a plausible method.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, person0 said:

Cloning, via a similar method to what was used when cloning Dolly the sheep, seems like it could potentially enable a male human who is sterile, and his wife, who is fertile, to give birth to a child that is biologically theirs, and still be within this purpose.  If you combine this technology with the slowly advancing technology of the artificial womb, then even if the mother, or both parents were sterile, they could be enabled to have biological children without using a surrogate mother (which the Church already recommends against doing).  Creepy to our current societal paradigm? Yes!  But not necessarily evil/wicked, unless the process used to achieve the science requires actions that are clearly against the commandments of God.

My only point was that when considering whether cloning of a human is "right", one should take that document into account (as well as scripture, etc.).

[Guest]

17 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

Does a human created through cloning have a soul?  If it does, does that mean God placed the soul in it and by extension approves of cloning? 

Would that mean that God approves of adultery or fornication or rape?

[person0]

14 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Would that mean that God approves of adultery or fornication or rape?

Same point I was making via the alcoholic mother example.  I think your example is probably even easier to understand.

Edited April 17, 2018 by person0

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, person0 said:

Cloning, via a similar method to what was used when cloning Dolly the sheep, seems like it could potentially enable a male human who is sterile, and his wife, who is fertile, to give birth to a child that is biologically theirs, and still be within this purpose.  If you combine this technology with the slowly advancing technology of the artificial womb, then even if the mother, or both parents were sterile, they could be enabled to have biological children without using a surrogate mother (which the Church already recommends against doing).  Creepy to our current societal paradigm? Yes!  But not necessarily evil/wicked, unless the process used to achieve the science requires actions that are clearly against the commandments of God.

In my mind, the reality that many people will use certain scientific advancements for an illegitimate or wicked purpose is usually not reason enough to prevent the scientific advancement altogether.  So long as there is sufficient righteous use, and it can be accomplished in an ethical and moral way, it seems like it could be valuable to pursue such an advancement.  The internet is used by vast numbers of people for pornography, however, the good uses of it help billions of people.  Cloning might not help billions, but it could help enough in various ways to be worth it!

If it is indeed possible to be accomplished, it seems to me that there would probably be some eternal use of this type of technology/process.  From an extrapolation of what science has already achieved in the areas of cloning and the development of the artificial womb, it would not be too surprising to me to one day learn that the way God produced Adam's physical body was by cloning His own physical body using similar techniques.  Then, it might suddenly be more reasonable to literally suggest that Eve was created from Adam's rib [cell] by means of the same technique, hence becoming both literal and figurative.  Given that I personally prefer to reject the idea of God using evolutionary processes to develop the physical body of man, to me, cloning seems like a much preferable alternative.  Obviously, man's creation could just as easily be something entirely different, and the Lord could one day reveal that man must end this type of research.  Until then, I have a hard time coming up with reasons not to pursue it.

Note:  I'm not saying that I actually believe this is what God did/does, only that it seems to be a plausible method.

Im just so against cloning. Life isnt the result of a lab experiment. Life is ordained by God to only come through husband and wife. The problem you get when you start changing laws to allow human cloning is that it erases moral responsibility. If that happens then you have a myriad of negative effects. It also creates the real possibility that a clone can be owned or be the property of a corporation or government. And holy #$@% if you are going to think thats okay under the watchful eye of God.

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, FoolsMock said:

Does a human created through cloning have a soul?  If it does, does that mean God placed the soul in it and by extension approves of cloning? 

An identical twin is a clone - and yes twins (clones) have their own souls.  It was once thought (by traditional Christians) that illegitimate children did not have souls as noble as legitimate children.  In general, I think that those that believe in G-d should be on the cutting edge of science.  Not forever trying to catch up on “empirical things” they refuse to understand.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 17, 2018 by Traveler

[Traveler]

22 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im just so against cloning. Life isnt the result of a lab experiment. Life is ordained by God to only come through husband and wife. The problem you get when you start changing laws to allow human cloning is that it erases moral responsibility. If that happens then you have a myriad of negative effects. It also creates the real possibility that a clone can be owned or be the property of a corporation or government. And holy #$@% if you are going to think thats okay under the watchful eye of God.

 

It is possible that the science of cloning is the solution of such things as cancer, organ replacements (without donners), limb replacements, type 1 diabetes and even aging.   Already many children are conceived and born because of various lab experiments.   I am unconvinced that such things are evil.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

9 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

It is possible that the science of cloning is the solution of such things as cancer, organ replacements (without donners), limb replacements, type 1 diabetes and even aging.   Already many children are conceived and born because of various lab experiments.   I am unconvinced that such things are evil.

 

The Traveler

Well, I think the line that gets crossed is the moment they make it lawful to actually create a fully functioning human outside of the womb. That to me is as good as asking for hellfire to reign down on our heads

[person0]

48 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im just so against cloning. Life isnt the result of a lab experiment. Life is ordained by God to only come through husband and wife. The problem you get when you start changing laws to allow human cloning is that it erases moral responsibility. If that happens then you have a myriad of negative effects. It also creates the real possibility that a clone can be owned or be the property of a corporation or government. And holy #$@% if you are going to think thats okay under the watchful eye of God.

I certainly validate your right to that opinion.  However, I disagree.  A cloned human is still a human, and human slavery is illegal in the USA.  Saying that a corporation owns a clone is to subject a human being to slavery.  The laws would have to change for that to be possible.  The benefits of cloning would likely be realized long before someone would have the gall to propose such legislation.  There are currently no federal laws that fully ban human cloning, so outside of the 15 states that ban reproductive cloning, no laws would need to be changed.  Just because some people may use unethical methods, does not mean all methods would be unethical.  Just because some researchers may abandon moral responsibility, does not mean all will do so.  You are right that life is not the result of a lab experiment, however instead, a lab experiment that results in life would be the result of successful discovery and application of natural laws that already exist.  If those laws are not already in place, then successful human cloning will never be possible.

Where I presume we both agree is that, "Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity."  As a result, in my view, the moral application of human cloning would require a married couple willing to supply the cells and to rear the child.  Likely, some of the best participants would be couples who are unable to bear their own biological children.  Just because some researchers would not heed this counsel, does not mean that the technology itself is inappropriate or illegitimate; it means that those researchers are not heeding the counsel of the Lord and His prophets.

Edited April 17, 2018 by person0

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, person0 said:

I certainly validate your right to that opinion.  However, I disagree.  A cloned human is still a human, and human slavery is illegal in the USA.  Saying that a corporation owns a clone is to subject a human being to slavery.  The laws would have to change for that to be possible.  The benefits of cloning would likely be realized long before someone would have the gall to propose such legislation.  There are currently no federal laws that fully ban human cloning, so outside of the 15 states that ban reproductive cloning, no laws would need to be changed.  Just because some people may use unethical methods, does not mean all methods would be unethical.  Just because some researchers may abandon moral responsibility, does not mean all will do so.  You are right that life is not the result of a lab experiment, however instead, a lab experiment that produces life would be the result of successful discovery and application of natural laws that already exist.  If those laws are not already in place, then successful human cloning will never be possible.

Where I presume we both agree is that, "Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity."  As a result, in my view, the moral application of human cloning would require a married couple willing to supply the cells and to rear the child.  Likely, some of the best participants would be couples who are unable to bear their own biological children.  Just because some researchers would not heed this counsel, does not mean that the technology itself is inappropriate or illegitimate; it means that those researchers are not heeding the counsel of the Lord and His prophets.

Cloning life in an artificial womb is not "natural".  Its all just so wrong.

[Guest MormonGator]

34 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

It is possible that the science of cloning is the solution of such things as cancer, organ replacements (without donners), limb replacements, type 1 diabetes and even aging.   Already many children are conceived and born because of various lab experiments.   I am unconvinced that such things are evil.

 

The Traveler

Yup. As with every technological advance some people will always be afraid of it and call it "evil". The good news is that their opinion is largely irrelevant. Science and technology finds a way to continue to provide us amazing breakthroughs. We are so lucky to be alive today. 

[person0]

53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Cloning life in an artificial womb is not "natural".  Its all just so wrong.

Of course it's not 'natural'.  Neither is most medication, nor GMO foods, nor automobiles.  All are the result of experimentation and intentional physical manipulation of natural events and processes.  While those examples do not result in human life, they do sustain, enhance, and improve it.  However, I was talking about natural law, as in the laws of nature that God has established to govern this earth.  If it is not within the laws of nature, it will not be possible to accomplish; it's that simple.  If it is possible to accomplish while still adhering to God's revealed laws, and the laws of our country, I see no problem.

EDIT:  As a side note:  The artificial womb is not being developed for the purpose of cloning.  It is being developed for the purpose of saving the lives of extremely prematurely born children, who will be most benefited by physical development continuing to take place in a sanitary womb environment.  I simply recognized that eventually the two technologies might have the capability to be used together.  I think we all would agree that saving the lives of children is a highly noble cause for which to develop such a technology.

Edited April 17, 2018 by person0

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, I think the line that gets crossed is the moment they make it lawful to actually create a fully functioning human outside of the womb. That to me is as good as asking for hellfire to reign down on our heads

I am unaware of any research – even in lower life forms – that suggest any possibility that such a line is possible in any species of life.  Kind of like saying we should not study history just in case someone comes up with a means of time travel.  The two are not related by anything but fantasy in the uneducated mind.  If this is truly your primary concern about cloning – it has no foundation in reality. 

 

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

With regards to how God feels I believ @zil is the only one that provided an actual statement from the brethren that would have impact to this discussion, "Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity." How often do we hear in the gospel of Jesus Christ the word "entitled"?

My concern, as with the natural man, is that we could see the following occur from this movie "The Island." The natural man would ultimately lead to the following with this process. Science itself is amoral. The human's conducting the research, the tendency of humans to give ear and follow the carnal man brings concern to any issue like this.

One value of cloning, if possible, a couple loses their child during birth. Cloning this child could bring comfort to the parents, but notice the child was first conceived through proper and moral methods as designated by God.

These are concerns of a "Telestial" world.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Anddenex