Alfie is dead

[NeuroTypical]

I was interested, so I looked up Costa Rica on Wikipedia.  I found this:

Quote

Independence
Like the rest of Central America, Costa Rica never fought for independence from Spain. On September 15, 1821, after the final Spanish defeat in the Mexican War of Independence (1810–21), the authorities in Guatemala declared the independence of all of Central America.

I suppose if everyone else did all the fighting and killing and dying in other countries, and freedom was handed to me, sort of by default, and I went off and formed a government free from opposition, because, you know, governments are good things to have - well, I'd probably be of a different opinion about such things than I am today.

[JayKi]

Just now, estradling75 said:

Way to dodge the question...  I declare @JayKi in a vegetative state...  Don't listen to his protest because he is not an expert like I am...  And don't listen to other "experts" because they are not as "expert" as me.

And if you don't care because you are in a vegetative state then what is the issue with keeping you alive as long as someone is willing to pay for it... after all you do not care you a vegetable

I am trainee neurosurgeon for 2 year I have my medicine degree I know more than you. You are no expert on Neurological conditions. What is the point of keeping someone alive if they are brain dead. 

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, JayKi said:

But you just think the opposite . If medical professional are telling you that he will never recover, he will spend the rest of his life in a vegetative state and you ignore that as a parent is irrational. Don't go into medical profession you wouldn't last a day with your irrational thoughts and naive hope. 

The doctors in Italy disagree with you.  They are doctors.  My brother, who is a doctor, also disagree with you.  My sister, who is a nurse, disagree with you.  Now, which doctor do you think I should listen to?

And by the way, see these children in the picture?  The British government decided these British subjects are not worthy of living.  So Britain took all their food.  That's what happens when you trust governments.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, JayKi said:

I am trainee neurosurgeon for 2 year I have my medicine degree I know more than you. You are no expert on Neurological conditions. What is the point of keeping someone alive if they are brain dead. 

Well fancy that... my brother is a neurologist too.  The other neurologists told him my aunt has no chance for survival too.  He disagreed and had her transferred as his patient even when he was in the other part of the world at that time.  Not only did my aunt live, she lived without any paralysis.  That's what good doctors do.  They give the patient every possible avenue for survival and not just give up on them.  But yeah, good thing my aunt is not under the authoritarian NHS.

Edited April 30, 2018 by anatess2

[JayKi]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The doctors in Italy disagree with you.  They are doctors.  My brother, who is a doctor, also disagree with you.  My sister, who is a nurse, disagree with you.  Now, which doctor do you think I should listen to?

 

Irrelevant the child is British the experts in Britain are what is taken in to account. 

 

Most rational parents know what to do and do it. Unfortunately, Alfie parents were not capable of acting in Alfie best interest. 

[anatess2]

Just now, JayKi said:

Irrelevant the child is British the experts in Britain are what is taken in to account. 

 

Most rational parents know what to do and do it. Unfortunately, Alfie parents were not capable of acting in Alfie best interest. 

AND THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T LET GOVERNMENT HAVE POWER OVER YOUR LIBERTY.

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, JayKi said:

I am trainee neurosurgeon for 2 year I have my medicine degree I know more than you. You are no expert on Neurological conditions. What is the point of keeping someone alive if they are brain dead. 

I am the expert in ME..  If I think I have an issue with my brain I will probably choose to consult with a expert like you about my condition.  But said consultation does not suddenly put you in the drivers seat of my life.  I am still the expert in ME no matter how may degrees you get.  If I do not like what you have to say I can choose to consult with someone else. Or no one...  I can even choose to do nothing.  The doctor does not have the finally word just because they got a degree or two

Any doctor that thinks otherwise is on a prideful ego trip.

[BeccaKirstyn]

Just now, JayKi said:

Most rational parents know what to do and do it. Unfortunately, Alfie parents were not capable of acting in Alfie best interest. 

Who determines Alfie's best interests? 

[NeuroTypical]

1 minute ago, JayKi said:

Most rational parents know what to do and do it. Unfortunately, Alfie parents were not capable of acting in Alfie best interest. 

Rational opinion differed about what Alfie's best interest was.  One rational opinion said "no hope, remove life support".  The other rational opinion said "yes hope, come to our country for care".  

 

[anatess2]

Just now, BeccaKirstyn said:

Who determines Alfie's best interests? 

Accordiing to @JayKi, being dead rather than have a chance for survival regardless of how slim, is in Alfie's best interest.  And he should decide because he's a neurologist and parents are selfish.  I guess he learned that from his British medical teachers.

[Guest MormonGator]

If you really had a medical degree you'd be too busy working or studying to engage in debates in the online community. 

[BeccaKirstyn]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Rational opinion differed about what Alfie's best interest was.  One rational opinion said "no hope, remove life support".  The other rational opinion said "yes hope, come to our country for care".  

 

Exactly. And the deciding power of a child's best interest should be the parent unless there is significant harm being done, which in Alfie's case there wasn't. 

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

Who determines Alfie's best interests? 

Any sane metric would have Alfie parents determine his best interest. (Unless they have being priority judged as unfit)

Every day throughout the world parents are determining what is in their kids best interest...  Can they be emotional? Sure. Can they make bad calls?  Sure.  Yet we accept parental judgement as a default state.  So without prior judgement of being unfit Alfie parents should be allowed to continue to make such call.

But apparently if you are British and seek a second opinion outside the British healthcare system you are suddenly unfit to make such calls

 

[Vort]

36 minutes ago, JayKi said:

You are just paranoid person not trusting government. Have lots of conspiracy theories but was does it benefit your life to not trust the government ? Nada no benefit. so keep looking at who shot JFK or whatever Americans do and have paranoia. 

JayKi, I've tried to treat you as a friend and brother. So as a friend and brother, I'm telling you that the more you talk, the gladder every American here is that you are living in Britain.

Sometimes, the best thing to say is nothing. You reached that tipping point long ago. As the old saying goes, when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, JayKi said:

I am trainee neurosurgeon for 2 year I have my medicine degree I know more than you. You are no expert on Neurological conditions. What is the point of keeping someone alive if they are brain dead. 

JayKi, I disbelieve you. Your statements are far too ignorant to believe your story. Your English is far too bad for you to be a student in the UK. Your lack of reasoning capability is far too severe to believe that you are a neurosurgeon. And your participation on this list defies the story that you're a medical student -- unless English medical students have a strict eight-hours-per-day policy for school and internship combined.

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but I smell a rat. Your English deteriorated quite a bit in recent posts. Is your poor English just a put-on, too?

Mods, I declare troll. I'm believing JayKi less and less, and I think I've arrived at the point of disbelief.

[JayKi]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Accordiing to @JayKi, being dead rather than have a chance for survival regardless of how slim, is in Alfie's best interest.  And he should decide because he's a neurologist and parents are selfish.  I guess he learned that from his British medical teachers.

Well somewhere is must draw a line that is all I don't think any one person can have the right to decide but is not always practical to let nature run its course. 

[JayKi]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

JayKi, I disbelieve you. Your statements are far too ignorant to believe your story. Your English is far too bad for you to be a student in the UK. Your lack of reasoning capability is far too severe to believe that you are a neurosurgeon. And your participation on this list defies the story that you're a medical student -- unless English medical students have a strict eight-hours-per-day policy for school and internship combined.

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but I smell a rat. Your English deteriorated quite a bit in recent posts. Is your poor English just a put-on, too?

Mods, I declare troll. I'm believing JayKi less and less, and I think I've arrived at the point of disbelief.

I finish school already until September I just revise now but I just like the forum to practice English and get advice. I didn't troll you is my opinion. I won't comment more as I tell my opinion is not popular. 

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, JayKi said:

I finish school already until September I just revise now but I just like the forum to practice English and get advice. I didn't troll you is my opinion. I won't comment more as I tell my opinion is not popular. 

Ah. English medical students get summers off. Gotcha.

[JayKi]

Just now, Vort said:

Ah. English medical students get summers off. Gotcha.

Well university off I have still placement in summer after exams in May but short placement as I go to Costa Rica for wedding and honeymoon in July. 

[Just_A_Guy]

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

No is wrong. You as parent are irrational, the child has degenerative neurological condition that means he will deteriorate until death. He won't have quality of life and the government is right it is better the child to die. 

As a neurosurgeon-in-training, maybe you can tell me more about exactly what quality of life one can expect from being in a box six feet underground.

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

Is more than money. Alfie get sandwich every day but he is still starving. What is point of giving him sandwich? 

Because many people believe that life (no matter how painful) is preferable to death, Doctor.

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

I won't care who pull plug on me if I am in vegetative state. 

But nor would you care if you were left alive.  Because you’d be, you know, in a vegetative state.  

So, what’s the harm in keeping Alfie alive if the family wants it and has the resources to do it?

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

What is the point of keeping someone alive if they are brain dead. 

What’s the point of hanging out with a girl when she’s married to someone else, and you’re engaged to someone else?  What’s the point of a Spanish-speaker going to medical school in an English-speaking country—isn’t the training hard enough without doing it in a foreign language?  What’s the point of living in a two-bedroom house instead of a one-bedroom house?  What’s the point of having a house and yard instead of an apartment? 

The point, of course, is that it’s none of the government’s &/@$*%}€ business.  

So why should government demand the death of a child who isn’t costing the government any money and, as you yourself have acknowledged, is not in pain? 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[JayKi]

29 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As a neurosurgeon-in-training, maybe you can tell me more about exactly what quality of life one can expect from being in a box six feet underground.

4 hours ago, JayKi said:

There will be no quality of life as he is dead. The benefit of keeping Alfie alive is for his parents I feel. Sometimes I look at scenario where someone is all but dead with no way to survive without constant support or if they can they can't function due to they are brain dead. My father was on life support my mother felt his soul had left him and he wasn't there so she agreed to switch off. 

 

35 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Because many people believe that life (no matter how painful) is preferable to death, Doctor.

4 hours ago, JayKi said:

Sometimes death is a release from pain. I meet lots of people who believe this, it still hurts of course to lose family and friend but lots of people say they are no longer in pain and they are now at peace. I believe all life sacred personally and professionally. Also, I think the parent will have pain and distraction for as long as Alfie is in vegetative state. 

 

37 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But nor would you care if you were left alive.  Because you’d be, you know, in a vegetative state.  

So, what’s the harm in keeping Alfie alive if the family wants it and has the resources to do it?

We don't know that, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43898972 this article explain a little how decision was made. It point out NHS can't release all information because confidentiality so is important to remember we don't get whole story. 

 

38 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The point, of course, is that it’s none of the government’s &/@$*%}€ business.  

So why should government demand the death of a child who isn’t costing the government any money and, as you yourself have acknowledged, is not in pain? 

I don't know if pain would be there for him as I don't know the Italian doctors plans. The link above also shows government position. I am sure you acknowledge at some point Alfie must die, to extend that process of letting go is painful. Many parent make that decision but it is hard decision. If I had child I would probably use my not professional rational but I believe the government acted fair in the matter. What was benefit for them to stop Alfie move to Italy? 

I have sympathy of course for the child and family but I just defend the NHS and government a little out of duty but it align with my personal view too. 

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, JayKi said:

We don't know that, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43898972 this article explain a little how decision was made. It point out NHS can't release all information because confidentiality so is important to remember we don't get whole story. 

What a shamelessly biased article. Only a liar would write such a story, and only a fool would believe it.

The critical sentence:

While some have argued parents should be allowed to make decisions about their children, the law does not see it like that.

Translation: The government knows best. Parents have parental rights only so long as the government allows it.

The telling paragraph:

Medical ethicist Dr Daniel Sokol says the approach taken in recent weeks smacks of "guerrilla warfare" where threats, insults, intimidation and distortion of facts were used to put "unbearable pressure" on the health service.

So now, according to Dr (no period) Daniel Sokol and the BBC, mere vociferous disagreement with the government's policy of allowing a child to die is akin to guerrilla warfare.

Does anyone on this list not named JayKi, of any national persuasion, believe this?

Edited April 30, 2018 by Vort

[estradling75]

15 minutes ago, JayKi said:

I have sympathy of course for the child and family but I just defend the NHS and government a little out of duty but it align with my personal view too. 

And all the NHS and the government had to do was say... "We respect the rights of the parents to change the healthcare provider for their kids.  We are no longer responsible per the wishes of the parents"  How is that some how less ethical, less moral, less cost effective then what they did

 

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Because many people believe that life (no matter how painful) is preferable to death, Doctor.

i know there are a lot of people who feel this way.  The uniformity of that preference even amid the most horrific kind of physical pain has struck me as being somewhat curious - at least for people who believe in the concept of a heaven which is generally seen as preferable to this earth.  i hope everyone here has their medical directive all spelled out.  Doing so spares one's family a great deal of pain.  

What confuses me is why the British government demanded that this child not receive treatment.  That seems a lot different than saying they are not going to *pay* for treatment.  Perhaps legal culpability for what might happen as a result of the latter is their justification for enforcing the former.  

Though i just can't imagine how they could be legally/morally that concerned, given that they removed the machinery sustaining life and let the parents perform some form of CPR until this poor child died.  At least per the wikipedia article.

[JayKi]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And all the NHS and the government had to do was say... "We respect the rights of the parents to change the healthcare provider for their kids.  We are no longer responsible per the wishes of the parents"  How is that some how less ethical, less moral, less cost effective then what they did

 

It is the governments view that the parent forfeit their right to decide as they were not acting in best interest of the child. 

If I beat or neglect my child I forfeit those rights.