Did your children ever not want to go to church? How did you handle it?

[dellme]

10 minutes ago, Lee said:

 Honestly, we do not let him rule the house at all,

No true.

He rules the house well enough that you needed to post this question.

He rules the house well enough that he doesn't eat what is fixed for dinner.

He rules the house well enough that you and your wife can't attend church together.

Those are two things that my well-behaved kids do not do.  Well behaved kids go to Church when told and eat what is fixed for them.  My guess is there is quite a lot of other things too, but you will never fix this problem until you stop making excuses for them. 

You are excusing bad behavior simply b/c he has had it rough in life.  So what.  A lot of people have it rough in life, but that doesn't give reason to throw tantrums, be disruly or disobedient.

The biggest lesson kids should learn is that life isn't fair and that just because you've been through a lot gives you no excuse to behave badly.

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by dellme

[dellme]

5 minutes ago, Lee said:

Well it isn't really me who has to handle it, it is my 8 year old nephew. He doesn't have the maturity to handle his emotions. 

No he doesn't have the maturity-but you teach him how to have maturity by the example you set.  You set the example and allow him to deal with his own emotions by not making special rules simply b/c he's had it rough.

[Lee]

Just now, dellme said:

No he doesn't have the maturity-but you teach him how to have maturity by the example you set.  You set the example and allow him to deal with his own emotions by not making special rules simply b/c he's had it rough.

I am not convinced you have kids. If you do then I feel bad for them

[dellme]

6 minutes ago, Lee said:

I am not convinced you have kids. If you do then I feel bad for them

ROTFLOL. Best quote of the DAY!!!  You just made my day.  Really that is awesome, you really brightened my day. Awesomeness!

No man . . .I''m not going into my own personal details on the interwebs.  But I DO know what I'm talking about.  I DO know about small kids who have had very, very sick parents, I HAVE had unruly, spoiled brat children, and I HAVE change in how I parent that has lead to a massive turn-around in everything. And I do have kids who absolutely adore me and have to be pulled off of me after shouting "MY DADDY!!!" . . .lol awesomeness.

You're just going to have to take my word for it.  I do know what I'm talking about here.  Clearly you do not.

Look, I don't doubt your sincerity or your love, just that your approach will not lead you to where you want it to lead you to. Parenting is all about unconditional love and unconditional leadership. You can't have one without the other or it leads to a massive imbalance.

Edited May 14, 2018 by dellme

[Lee]

7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Very true. 

How much you care for him is obvious. That's beautiful to see. 

Yeah I love him, him, my wife and my parents are my only family. I was very close with my brother so I naturally love his son a lot. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Lee said:

Yeah I love him, him, my wife and my parents are my only family. I was very close with my brother so I naturally love his son a lot. 

It really shows. It's inspiring to see. I'm not that close to family so whenever I see someone who is, I admire that. 

Your posts are heartbreaking my friend. A lot of us had trouble as kids/teenagers. I know it's not much, but again-I'm praying for you, your family,  and him. 

[Lee]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It really shows. It's inspiring to see. I'm not that close to family so whenever I see someone who is, I admire that. 

Your posts are heartbreaking my friend. A lot of us had trouble as kids/teenagers. I know it's not much, but again-I'm praying for you, your family,  and him. 

I think the benefit of having a small family is that it is very close.  

[Vort]

12 minutes ago, Lee said:

I am not convinced you have kids. If you do then I feel bad for them

Maybe @dellme could be a bit kinder in his phraseology, but he is right in what he's saying. Pity and coddling are fine in very small doses measured in minutes or perhaps hours, but what children need in the long haul, day by day, week by week, year by year, is structure and predictability. They need adults calling the shots and telling them where to go and what to do. They don't need control; they need structure.

[dellme]

21 minutes ago, Lee said:

I am not convinced you have kids. If you do then I feel bad for them

All you are teaching him is how to be a victim in life and that leads to no where good. Bad mental health, bad behaviors, bad attitudes, bad relationships, etc. It's fine to go out for special dates or what not, but rules are rules and just b/c something horrific happens to you doesn't mean you get an excuse to not go to church.

And good luck trying to "convince" an 8-year that he should go to church.  Like you are going to "reason" with an 8-year-old . . .hah, best parenting words ever "Because I said so" And once you get to an age where you can reasonably expect to hear the reason behind "because I said so" you should be able to figure it out for yourself without me having to explain it to you.

Really, it's awesome, real conversations with my kids.  "But why dad?" "Because I said so" . . "But WHY???" "well if you want to know the answer, why do YOU think I said xyz?"  child in a sulking, sheepish manner " well dad I guess it's because of xyz".  "Good job, kid I'm glad you are thinking for yourself!"

Edited May 14, 2018 by dellme

[dellme]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Maybe @dellme could be a bit kinder in his phraseology, but he is right in what he's saying. Pity and coddling are fine in very small doses measured in minutes or perhaps hours, but what children need in the long haul, day by day, week by week, year by year, is structure and predictability. They need adults calling the shots and telling them where to go and what to do. They don't need control; they need structure.

I was listening to Jordan Peterson interviewing some guy talking about fathers and what they bring to the table and it's really amazing.  The traits that fathers overwhelmingly bring is the dust yourself off, I know you can do it, try again, don't let life knock you down, etc.  Mothers in general bring a very empathic, coddling attitude . . .which is great . . .for toddler and infants!  Biologically speaking it's awesome b/c mom's need to have that empathitic, coddling nature for infants-if they don't the child will die or be harmed tremendously.   It's crucial and essential.  At the same time, fathers are also essential to teach the children how to stand on their own two feet, mothers and fathers are very, very complementary but very, very different.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

Maybe @dellme could be a bit kinder in his phraseology, 

I think we all could be. Myself included, for sure. 

[Lee]

28 minutes ago, Vort said:

Maybe @dellme could be a bit kinder in his phraseology, but he is right in what he's saying. Pity and coddling are fine in very small doses measured in minutes or perhaps hours, but what children need in the long haul, day by day, week by week, year by year, is structure and predictability. They need adults calling the shots and telling them where to go and what to do. They don't need control; they need structure.

I don't disagree with that, what my wife and I take in to account is that he has never had structure or predictability, even now he doesn't know when his mom is going to be able to care for him again or if she will ever be able to. He doesn't know what changes will happen when my wife has the baby. He has a lot of worries and he feels out of control of everything that has happened to him, we try to let him make decisions so he can feel like he has some form of control in his life. 

[Jane_Doe]

11 minutes ago, Lee said:

I don't disagree with that, what my wife and I take in to account is that he has never had structure or predictability, even now he doesn't know when his mom is going to be able to care for him again or if she will ever be able to. He doesn't know what changes will happen when my wife has the baby. He has a lot of worries and he feels out of control of everything that has happened to him, we try to let him make decisions so he can feel like he has some form of control in his life. 

You guys are right on target.

Now the trick is providing him with age-appropriate decisions (and the resulting consequences) for him to make and learn from.   Age-appropriate is a key phrase here.  Like he's big enough to pick his own clothes, which of the chores he wants to do, suggest fun family activities, etc.  

[lostinwater]

23 hours ago, Lee said:

My nephew who my wife and I are caring for has decided he doesn't want to go to church anymore. This has been the case for 3 weeks and we have battled with him, tried to convince him he should go, we have tried bribing him with gifts if he comes with us but we haven't had any luck. My wife and I have been alternating weeks of one of us attending and the other staying home with our nephew. However, we both miss going to church together, we want to convince our nephew to come with us. Our nephew is going through an emotional time right now and he isn't mature enough to handle his emotions, he thinks because his mom isn't getting any better and he has been praying about it that God isn't helping him, he is very angry at God. Have your children ever not wanted to go to church? How did you convince them to go ? 

i don't have children - so my advice plays second (or lower) fiddle.  

Others have given you far better advice than i am capable of regarding discipline.

But on the hating God part - i don't think that's a problem you can solve by forcing them to come to church.  Maybe they need to be forced to come to church for the discipline/obedience part.  But i just wouldn't assume that's going to fix the anger at God problem.  From what i've seen, it usually makes it worse.  

i read somewhere that God can take our anger as well as our gratitude - and does a pretty good job of dealing with/optimizing both.  We get into a lot of trouble trying to hold onto either one.  If you can find some way for him to release (as in express) that anger towards God verbally - maybe that would help to avoid him acting that anger out in much more destructive ways.  Maybe if you can get them involved in some community service.  Not out of a spirit of "stop being so selfish, you little brat" - but more just because helping others deal with their suffering somehow gives meaning to ours.  And it seems like suffering without meaning is maybe what we all really hate more than just the fact that we've suffered.

And like others have said - it's pretty exceptional you care this much.  Gratitude to you for that.  

[bytebear]

I didn't like going to church because the other kids were kinda mean.  I just didn't have any good friends at church.  If I had, I would have liked going a lot more.

[Sunday21]

@Lee I am an aunt. I know just how you feel. I had to look after my niece, take her to daycare and then get to work on time. Pure hell. I went with bribery. Chocolate. The parents came up with the system. If the kid does not make a fuss she gets chocolate when u get her in the car. We still had tears and screaming. Now the kid is 14. Now she is a nice kid previously pure hell.

[mordorbund]

@dellme Do any of the following names mean anything to you?

 

@mgridle @JoCa @yjacket

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

@dellme Do any of the following names mean anything to you?

@mgridle @JoCa @yjacket

No kidding? Boy, do I feel dumb.

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, Lee said:

Don't call him that, he has probably been through more bad things in his 8 years than you have in your entire life. 

Doesn't change anything.  We can't just take a break from life no matter what it throws at us and no matter how much we wish we could.  Remember that 15-year-old I was telling you about?  Yeah, that kid, I'm quite certain has been through more than your nephew when he was 8.  But he's not even an outlier in these parts.  This picture below is normal in my neck of the woods.  These kids STILL need to learn obedience, discipline, and structure.  They need a PARENT regardless of how desperate their situation.  It's the difference between having it rough as a child and having it rough for the rest of your life.

[Lee]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

Doesn't change anything.  We can't just take a break from life no matter what it throws at us and no matter how much we wish we could.  Remember that 15-year-old I was telling you about?  Yeah, that kid, I'm quite certain has been through more than your nephew when he was 8.  But he's not even an outlier in these parts.  This picture below is normal in my neck of the woods.  These kids STILL need to learn obedience, discipline, and structure.  They need a PARENT regardless of how desperate their situation.  It's the difference between having it rough as a child and having it rough for the rest of your life.

 

It is too easy to say that every kid needs the same thing. It is more important to treat kids as individuals and understand their struggles. Simply, because some people in the world have been through more than my nephew doesn't diminish what he has been through. 

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, Lee said:

It is too easy to say that every kid needs the same thing. It is more important to treat kids as individuals and understand their struggles. Simply, because some people in the world have been through more than my nephew doesn't diminish what he has been through. 

Lee, EVERY CHILD need discipline.  Where it becomes individual is HOW YOU INSTILL that discipline.  It is different for every child.  But no child, regardless of the circumstance, is benefited by getting exempted from discipline.  This is something that has been proven for thousands of years so much so that the Gospel (where all this is taught) remains true regardless of century, civilization, circumstance.  Obedience needs to be learned.  Discipline needs to be instilled.  How you accomplish that is up to you and your individual child.  But it needs to be learned for your child to become a productive human being instead of a kid who will destroy himself or others because his life is hard.

[zil]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

But it needs to be learned for your child to become a productive human being instead of a kid who will destroy himself or others because his life is hard. 

It has been my personal experience, when going through hard times, that those parts of my life which are highly structured and rule-driven (work and time at church, in the temple, and in my calling) are far, far easier - in fact, they are a relief from dealing with the hard times - than those times which are not structured (free time) - when I am left with nothing of necessity to save me from dealing with the trial and am therefore forced to deal with the trial.

I submit that to discipline this child is a mercy, saving him from constantly dealing with the painful thoughts and emotions of his trial; saving him from the confusing effort of trying to decide whether it's OK to do X when X is compared to the life-and-death reality of his mother's situation and the terrifying thought of being kicked out of yet another home.

Consistency (which must include consistent rules and their enforcement) is a gift compared to inconsistency.  Even forced structure is a relief compared to no structure or ever-changing structure.

[anatess2]

P.S.  Exempting the child from learning the necessary life skills, especially towards his spiritual growth, is not - in any way, shape, or form - Compassionate.  It is the opposite of Compassionate.  Rather, it is Debilitating.  And I'm going to say this again - the child needs a parent.  If you can't do it, you need to find somebody else who can.

[Lee]

8 hours ago, zil said:

It has been my personal experience, when going through hard times, that those parts of my life which are highly structured and rule-driven (work and time at church, in the temple, and in my calling) are far, far easier - in fact, they are a relief from dealing with the hard times - than those times which are not structured (free time) - when I am left with nothing of necessity to save me from dealing with the trial and am therefore forced to deal with the trial.

I submit that to discipline this child is a mercy, saving him from constantly dealing with the painful thoughts and emotions of his trial; saving him from the confusing effort of trying to decide whether it's OK to do X when X is compared to the life-and-death reality of his mother's situation and the terrifying thought of being kicked out of yet another home.

Consistency (which must include consistent rules and their enforcement) is a gift compared to inconsistency.  Even forced structure is a relief compared to no structure or ever-changing structure.

The thing is we can't give him structure if he won't agree with what we tell him to do. 

 

How is it a mercy to discipline him?

[Lee]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

Honestly, my wife and I have 0 parenting experience neither of us even had younger siblings. We are doing our best.  

 

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

P.S.  Exempting the child from learning the necessary life skills, especially towards his spiritual growth, is not - in any way, shape, or form - Compassionate.  It is the opposite of Compassionate.  Rather, it is Debilitating.  And I'm going to say this again - the child needs a parent.  If you can't do it, you need to find somebody else who can.