Do you need tithe if you in debt?

[JayKi]

7 hours ago, unixknight said:

I don't want to lie but I really want to go to the Temple so I won't tell my Bishop about my occasional 420 use.

Or my vodka use.

Or the cup of coffee I have every morning before work.

 

I dont do those thing you are just being rude. 

[unixknight]

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

I dont do those thing you are just being rude. 

Not being rude, I'm making a point.  Would I be able to justify those things simply because I want to? 

[zil]

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

Is no whats left I can still live on and tithe but if I have to tithe on my pay before the loan repayment goes it is more than what my final pay is. 

So, let's say, for the sake of argument, that your earnings before the loan repayment is taken out are: $100

Tithing on $100 is $10.  You're saying you get back less than $10 as your final pay - less than 10% of your earnings is coming to you.  That means the loan payment takes out more than $90 of $100 - more than 90% of your original earnings.

Really?  If so, I don't know what to tell you, except what I already told you, which is to counsel with your bishop.  One key to the whole thing might be knowing how long this will continue, what other financial resources you have, whether you paid tithing on the loan money you received, etc.  (In other words, look at the whole picture rather than an individual paycheck.)

(Before you entered into this situation, I would have had other advice, but it's too late for that now.  But if all that is correct, I'm very sorry that you find yourself in such a situation and I wish it were otherwise.  But I have no power to make it otherwise - I'm sorry.)

[estradling75]

Bottom line for @JayKi is that if you want to be Sealed in the Temple you have to go before the Bishop and a member of the Stake Presidency for a Living Ordinance Recommend (the standard recommend is for doing work for the dead).  During this process the Bishop (and a member of the Stake Presidency) will/should ask the standard recommend questions.  Which includes "Are you a full tithe payer?"  They will not ask for supporting documentation, they will not ask you to prove it.  After all the third signature (aka the third witness) on a recommend that testifies to worthiness is your own.

Should you choose to lie or evade or avoid fully answering the question then you are unworthy to have such a recommend.  While you might be able to fool the mortal gatekeepers but you will not fool God.  And going to the temple unworthily heaps condemnation upon your own head.

If you are in doubt on your status then the you can work with the mortal gatekeepers to gain clarity and a path forward.

 

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

So you pay tithe on your increase.  Say you own a $100k house and it burns to the ground.  And insurance doesn't cover it for whatever reason.  It is a $100k loss.

Now suppose you make $40k/year.

Your net increase is a -60K.   Would you pay tithing?  How much.

Just because your house burned down doesn't mean you don't get an increase.  It just means your baseline got reduced.  You tithe on your increase - regardless of where your baseline is at the moment.  You don't "untithe" a loss... like the Church owes you now because you lost your house.

[SilentOne]

21 hours ago, JayKi said:

I worried to ask him because I dont want to lose my temple recommend now because I get married in 5 weeks. 

 

Quote

 

From Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Howard W. Hunter

"Shortly before Howard W. Hunter and Claire Jeffs were to be married, Howard went to his bishop to obtain a temple recommend. He was surprised that during the interview, the bishop questioned whether he could support a wife and family on his income. Howard recalled, 'When I told him how much I was making, he said the reason for his doubt as to my ability to support a wife was based on the amount of tithing I had paid.'

"Until that time, Howard had not been a full-tithe payer because he had not understood the importance of paying a full tithe. He explained, 'Because my father had not been a member of the Church during my years at home, tithing had never been discussed in our family and I had never considered its importance.'

"Howard said that as he and the bishop continued to talk, the bishop 'in his kindly way … taught me the importance of the law and when I told him I would henceforth be a full tithe payer, he continued the interview and relieved my anxiety by filling out and signing a recommendation form.'"

 

 

I can't say for sure how it will turn out for you, but I am confident it will go better if you speak with your bishop about your concerns and get the requirements cleared up now than it will if you keep things from him because you are afraid you might not get the recommend.

Edited June 14, 2018 by SilentOne

[omegaseamaster75]

23 hours ago, JayKi said:

It is so confusing but I pay tuition with Scholarship money but I  have a maintenance loan debt from British government that is taken before I get my pay cheque. So do I only tithe on my pay cheque pay or on my full pay 

I think I understand, you have debt that is taken out of your paycheck automatically. Is there any money left after the debt repayment is taken out? If yes tithe that. If there is nothing left and you are living off of debt to support yourself then you have no obligation to tithe.

This is the gospel according to Omega, so take it with a grain of salt

On a side note I hope that your marrying a rich girl because it sounds like you are poor as a church mouse with a mountain of debt.

[omegaseamaster75]

20 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

So you pay tithe on your increase.  Say you own a $100k house and it burns to the ground.  And insurance doesn't cover it for whatever reason.  It is a $100k loss.

Now suppose you make $40k/year.

Your net increase is a -60K.   Would you pay tithing?  How much.

nonsense example

[JayKi]

2 hours ago, zil said:

So, let's say, for the sake of argument, that your earnings before the loan repayment is taken out are: $100

Tithing on $100 is $10.  You're saying you get back less than $10 as your final pay - less than 10% of your earnings is coming to you.  That means the loan payment takes out more than $90 of $100 - more than 90% of your original earnings.

Really?  If so, I don't know what to tell you, except what I already told you, which is to counsel with your bishop.  One key to the whole thing might be knowing how long this will continue, what other financial resources you have, whether you paid tithing on the loan money you received, etc.  (In other words, look at the whole picture rather than an individual paycheck.)

(Before you entered into this situation, I would have had other advice, but it's too late for that now.  But if all that is correct, I'm very sorry that you find yourself in such a situation and I wish it were otherwise.  But I have no power to make it otherwise - I'm sorry.)

Yes I lose 92 % of my earnings as debt repayment  Because I no national I need pay all back before I go to Costa Rica in 5 week

[JayKi]

35 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I think I understand, you have debt that is taken out of your paycheck automatically. Is there any money left after the debt repayment is taken out? If yes tithe that. If there is nothing left and you are living off of debt to support yourself then you have no obligation to tithe.

 This is the gospel according to Omega, so take it with a grain of salt

On a side note I hope that your marrying a rich girl because it sounds like you are poor as a church mouse with a mountain of debt.

Yes I want to know do I need tithe pay amount or tithe pay amount after deductions.

I  no poor but I am trainee surgeon so I have loans and still tuition and dont get paid even a third of surgeon wage. I accidently took loan with almost 200% interest. That why but I pay off soon

[zil]

1 minute ago, JayKi said:

Yes I lose 92 % of my earnings as debt repayment  Because I no national I need pay all back before I go to Costa Rica in 5 week

So if it's all paid in 5 weeks, then you go back to a normal income, right?  That leaves you nearly half the year to pay a full tithe before tithing settlement.  I see no problem with delaying when the tithing is paid - so long as there's a plan to pay it and you follow through with that plan.  As I said elsewhere, there are people for whom this is their normal way of paying tithing - all of it at the end of the year rather than in little bits as the year passes.  (I wouldn't do that if I didn't have to, but if that's the best way...)

[JayKi]

6 minutes ago, zil said:

So if it's all paid in 5 weeks, then you go back to a normal income, right?  That leaves you nearly half the year to pay a full tithe before tithing settlement.  I see no problem with delaying when the tithing is paid - so long as there's a plan to pay it and you follow through with that plan.  As I said elsewhere, there are people for whom this is their normal way of paying tithing - all of it at the end of the year rather than in little bits as the year passes.  (I wouldn't do that if I didn't have to, but if that's the best way...)

yes but I still need know when I return UK is do I tithe on loan repayment deductions or no?

[zil]

30 minutes ago, JayKi said:

yes but I still need know when I return UK is do I tithe on loan repayment deductions or no?

Quote

D&C 119:4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

 

[Maureen]

6 hours ago, JayKi said:

yes but I still need know when I return UK is do I tithe on loan repayment deductions or no?

I am non-LDS so definitely take my 2 cents with a big grain of salt. Your deductions are a decrease not an increase, so I would think you would NOT tithe on those deductions.

M.

[zil]

7 hours ago, Maureen said:

I am non-LDS so definitely take my 2 cents with a big grain of salt. Your deductions are a decrease not an increase, so I would think you would NOT tithe on those deductions.

M.

They can't take from him money that was never his - there was in increase before the decrease (or there couldn't have been a decrease).  He already has way more than enough in this thread to figure out the right answer and get or stay right with the Lord.  I assume he doesn't like the answer and is looking for a way out of it, but there is no right way out of it.

[omegaseamaster75]

16 hours ago, JayKi said:

yes but I still need know when I return UK is do I tithe on loan repayment deductions or no?

Tithe on what's left after the loan deduction

[omegaseamaster75]

2 hours ago, zil said:

They can't take from him money that was never his - there was in increase before the decrease (or there couldn't have been a decrease).  He already has way more than enough in this thread to figure out the right answer and get or stay right with the Lord.  I assume he doesn't like the answer and is looking for a way out of it, but there is no right way out of it.

Let's do some math, I get $100.00 the loan repayment is $90.00 (I don't write this check it comes out like taxes before I get my check).

Net I have a $10.00 increase my tithing is $1.00. I have $9.00 left to pay for housing, food, clothing, etc.

OR

I get $100.00 the loan repayment is $90.00 (I don't write this check it comes out like taxes before I get my check).

Gross I have a$100.00 increase my tithing is $10.00. I have $0.00 left over to pay for housing, food, clothing, etc.

 

[zil]

4 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Let's do some math, I get $100.00 the loan repayment is $90.00 (I don't write this check it comes out like taxes before I get my check).

Net I have a $10.00 increase my tithing is $1.00. I have $9.00 left to pay for housing, food, clothing, etc.

OR

I get $100.00 the loan repayment is $90.00 (I don't write this check it comes out like taxes before I get my check).

Gross I have a$100.00 increase my tithing is $10.00. I have $0.00 left over to pay for housing, food, clothing, etc.

I did the math a long time ago.  Like I said, he has way more than enough information in this thread to study the matter out and come to his own decision about what's right.  How he does that, how he answers to his bishop, and how he answers to the Lord are all his business.

[JayKi]

2 hours ago, zil said:

  I assume he doesn't like the answer and is looking for a way out of it, but there is no right way out of it.

You talk nonsense so dont assume anything because you wrong.

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, Maureen said:

I am non-LDS so definitely take my 2 cents with a big grain of salt. Your deductions are a decrease not an increase, so I would think you would NOT tithe on those deductions.

M.

This is incorrect.

Say you gain increase by earning money.  And your income is - say X.  Then you spend that income on something - say Y.  Tithing is not 10% of X-Y.  It is 10% of X.  Say, you buy a car (or get an education) for Y but you don't have money right now, so you got a loan.  That's not a decrease - you got a car.  Say your car burns down.  That's still not a decrease on your increase.  That's a decrease in your living standard.  Your income remains your increase.  It does not happen that you earn $1,000 every year but your house burned down which is worth $100,000 so you don't pay tithing for the next 100 years.  Make sense?

Edited June 15, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

51 minutes ago, JayKi said:

You talk nonsense so dont assume anything because you wrong.

JayKi, the answer was given already.

If you earn $100 and you take out a loan for $1000 to pay for your education, your increase does not change.  A loan is not a decrease.  So you still need to pay $10 for tithe regardless of what you owe.

So, in your case, you are simply in a financial bind.  You should not pay your loan using your tithe money.  This is a bad idea and is not consistent with our covenants.  It's what we call "Robbing Peter to pay Paul".  So, you're going to have to figure out how to pay off your loan when you don't have the money to do it.  If you can't figure out a way on your own, then you will need to go get some help.  I, as well as several others on this thread, believe asking the bishop to help you figure out your finances is the best step.  This is better than going to a secular financial adviser or your student loan officer because the bishop understands your tithing covenant while secular advisers do not.

Hope this helps.

Edited June 15, 2018 by anatess2

[JayKi]

Just now, anatess2 said:

JayKi, the answer was given already.

If you earn $100 and you take out a loan for $1000 to pay for your education, your increase does not change.  A loan is not a decrease.

But, in your case, you are simply in a financial bind.  You are trying to pay your loan using your tithe.  This is a bad idea and is not consistent with our covenants.  It's what we call "Robbing Peter to pay Paul".  So, you're going to have to figure out how to pay off your loan when you can't afford to do it.  If you can't figure out a way on your own, then you will need to go get some help.  I, as well as several others on this thread, believe asking the bishop to help you figure out your finances is the best step.  This is better than going to a secular financial adviser or your student loan officer because the bishop understands your tithing covenant while secular advisers do not.

Hope this helps.

I dont want talk to Bishop becuase I know he will give lecture 

[anatess2]

Just now, JayKi said:

I dont want talk to Bishop becuase I know he will give lecture 

Well then you're on your own.  Regardless of what you do, not paying your tithe disqualifies you from making additional covenants in the temple.

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, JayKi said:

I dont want talk to Bishop becuase I know he will give lecture 

Heh - you mean, as opposed to what we do when you come ask us?

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh - you mean, as opposed to what we do when you come ask us?

I think he already knew the answer, he's just trying to wiggle his way out of it at this point. 

And the fact that he knows his bishop will lecture him proves that he knows it's wrong. Your bishop doesn't lecture you for doing the right thing, so....

Edited June 15, 2018 by MormonGator