Self-defense poll for US Saints

[jdf135]

59 minutes ago, Vort said:

A modicum of rational thought (or a little bit of digging) will reveal that the intent of "thou shalt not kill" is better expressed as "thou shalt not murder". Killing of human beings per se is not prohibited as a blanket rule. On the contrary, it is allowable and even commanded at times.

The only scriptural passages I know of that explicitly detail and praise pacifists–meaning those who refuse to take up arms for any reason–are those associated with the people of Limhi, or Anti-Nephi-Lehies. It must always be kept in mind that these people were despicable, filthy murderers prior to their conversion. It was for exactly this reason that they made such a terrible covenant, to the point of watching their wives and children murdered rather than defend them.

If you, too, are a repentant despicable murderer in danger of giving in to your blood lust again if you ever again take a human life even in self-defense, then you, too, should probably make such a covenant. But that covenant does not apply to your neighbor, who is not a despicable murderer seeking the wash innocent blood from his hands with the Savior's blood. On the contrary, his acts of defense, perhaps including killing the enemy, may well save your life and the lives of your loved ones.

Extreme pacifism is no virtue. In some cases, it's nothing but gift-wrapped cowardice. 

 

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales
 

[Vort]

1 minute ago, jdf135 said:

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales

I do not disagree, nor do I believe this contradicts anything I have said.

[let’s roll]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's nothing personal, but I find that hard to believe. Sorry. 

 

I have. High school. This kid charged me in the locker room. I quickly realized that he probably wouldn't listen to reason, cuddles, or harsh words, so I kicked him before he could attack me. The fight ended there. 

I respect people who don't, even though I think it's foolish. 

Is it cowardly? No. Naive? Yes. 

I’m sorry you don’t believe me.  I have two commendations from LAPD, one for each instance.

[zil]

47 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

If you care to respond, I’m interested in your thoughts on the post Vort made just before yours. 

Hmm.

1 hour ago, Vort said:

A modicum of rational thought (or a little bit of digging) will reveal that the intent of "thou shalt not kill" is better expressed as "thou shalt not murder". Killing of human beings per se is not prohibited as a blanket rule. On the contrary, it is allowable and even commanded at times.

The only scriptural passages I know of that explicitly detail and praise pacifists–meaning those who refuse to take up arms for any reason–are those associated with the people of Limhi, or Anti-Nephi-Lehies. It must always be kept in mind that these people were despicable, filthy murderers prior to their conversion. It was for exactly this reason that they made such a terrible covenant, to the point of watching their wives and children murdered rather than defend them.

If you, too, are a repentant despicable murderer in danger of giving in to your blood lust again if you ever again take a human life even in self-defense, then you, too, should probably make such a covenant. But that covenant does not apply to your neighbor, who is not a despicable murderer seeking the wash innocent blood from his hands with the Savior's blood. On the contrary, his acts of defense, perhaps including killing the enemy, may well save your life and the lives of your loved ones.

Extreme pacifism is no virtue. In some cases, it's nothing but gift-wrapped cowardice.

Commandment: completely agree that the commandment is meant to be "thou shalt not murder" - in addition to the great effort the OT uses to distinguish murder from manslaughter, there's also all the killing the Lord commands - if it really meant "never kill anyone", that would make God a hypocrite.

Pacifists in scripture: have to agree, though one of the scriptures I linked above does go on about the reward if you patiently endure your enemy's smiting efforts - but this clearly means your enemy is not a threat to your life, because if he were, there wouldn't be a second, or third, or fourth time.  In general, it is quite clear we are to love others, be patient and tolerant, slow to anger, allow the Lord (and the law) to take care of revenge (justice) if at all possible, and loathe the idea of taking a life.  But it's also pretty clear that we aren't to stand idly by while the wicked go about murdering the righteous.

And I guess I'd need more details on the final paragraph.  I don't know what's in anyone else's head (be it Vort's or the pacifist's or the coward's).  Some may well declare themselves pacifists in order to hide from the coward label (or even deceive themselves about their own lack of courage).  I can also imagine other reasons for someone to choose to be a pacifist - but what does the "extreme" modifier mean?  I don't know, and without knowing, I can't really say more.

Edited November 6, 2018 by zil

[zil]

4 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales
 

Are you sure he was talking about a situation where you were facing a rapist or murderer, as opposed to something a little less deadly?

Quote

Some people mistakenly think responses such as silence, meekness, forgiveness, and bearing humble testimony are passive or weak. But to “love [our] enemies, bless them that curse [us], do good to them that hate [us], and pray for them which despitefully use [us], and persecute [us]” (Matthew 5:44) takes faith, strength, and, most of all, Christian courage.

The Prophet Joseph Smith demonstrated this courage throughout his life. Though he “suffer[ed] severe persecution at the hands of all classes of men, both religious and irreligious” (Joseph Smith—History 1:27), he did not retaliate or give in to hatred. Like all true disciples of Christ, he stood with the Savior by loving others in a tolerant and compassionate way. That is Christian courage.

When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we too stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage.

Through the years we learn that challenges to our faith are not new, and they aren’t likely to disappear soon. But true disciples of Christ see opportunity in the midst of opposition.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/christian-courage-the-price-of-discipleship?lang=eng

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage.

-- Robert D. Hales

Since this was spoken by a man who had served in the armed forces, do you seriously believe this has anything to do with defending yourself against violence?  Look at the bolded portion.  It was about verbal attacks, specifically accusations and lies.

[jdf135]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

A modicum of rational thought (or a little bit of digging) will reveal that the intent of "thou shalt not kill" is better expressed as "thou shalt not murder". Killing of human beings per se is not prohibited as a blanket rule. On the contrary, it is allowable and even commanded at times.

The only scriptural passages I know of that explicitly detail and praise pacifists–meaning those who refuse to take up arms for any reason–are those associated with the people of Limhi, or Anti-Nephi-Lehies. It must always be kept in mind that these people were despicable, filthy murderers prior to their conversion. It was for exactly this reason that they made such a terrible covenant, to the point of watching their wives and children murdered rather than defend them.

If you, too, are a repentant despicable murderer in danger of giving in to your blood lust again if you ever again take a human life even in self-defense, then you, too, should probably make such a covenant. But that covenant does not apply to your neighbor, who is not a despicable murderer seeking the wash innocent blood from his hands with the Savior's blood. On the contrary, his acts of defense, perhaps including killing the enemy, may well save your life and the lives of your loved ones.

Extreme pacifism is no virtue. In some cases, it's nothing but gift-wrapped cowardice. 

 

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales
 

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

 

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales
 

So, this guy broke into your house and proceeded to rape your wife and daughter... you.... what?

[let’s roll]

14 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's nothing personal, but I find that hard to believe. Sorry. 

 

I have. High school. This kid charged me in the locker room. I quickly realized that he probably wouldn't listen to reason, cuddles, or harsh words, so I kicked him before he could attack me. The fight ended there. 

I guess I should have stood there and let him attack me. Or prayed or yelled for help.  I prefer to rely on myself though. 
 

I respect people who don't, even though I think it's foolish. 

Is it cowardly? No. Naive? Yes. 

Well it’s comforting to know you think I’m only naive, but not a coward.  😀

I say that completely tongue in cheek.  I’ve mentioned to you before how much I enjoy your posts and that applies equally to those on this thread.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’m sorry you don’t believe me.  I have two commendations from LAPD, one for each instance.

And, how did you thwart them?

[NeuroTypical]

27 minutes ago, Vort said:

"while we will be the last to oppress we will be the last to be driven from our post—peace be still bury the hatchet & the sword.—the sound of war is dreadfull in my ear. any man who will not fight for his wife & children is a coward & a bastard." -Joseph Smith, Jr.

You found a link for it!  Vort, you're my hero.  All I've had for 20 years is this quote, and a claim it was published in some journal somewhere.

[NeuroTypical]

26 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales

We're not talking about retaliation.  We're not talking about being angry.  We're talking about defending ourselves and loved ones from the threat of serious harm/injury/death.

Elder Hales rocks.  He's also talking about something else.

[anatess2]

26 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

 

“When we do not retaliate—when we turn the other cheek and resist feelings of anger—we … stand with the Savior. We show forth His love, which is the only power that can subdue the adversary and answer our accusers without accusing them in return. That is not weakness. That is Christian courage. - Robert D. Hales
 

We are role models to the world, protecting God-given, inalienable rights and freedoms. We stand in defense of our homes and our families.

- Also Robert D. Hales.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by anatess2

[let’s roll]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And, how did you thwart them?

I was in a laundromat when a man robbed a woman after brandishing a weapon.  He had her purse in hand when I stepped in front of him, took hold of the purse and said, you don’t want to do this.  He let go of the purse and I stood aside.

i was in a grocery store parking lot when I saw a woman being robbed at knife point about 30 yards away from me. I started walking towards them and about half way there made eye contact with the robber.  I kept walking towards them and when I was about 5 or 6 steps away he turned towards me briefly, knife in hand and then turned and ran.

In case you’re curious I’m about 5’9” and not an imposing figure.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I was in a laundromat when a man robbed a woman after brandishing a weapon.  He had her purse in hand when I stepped in front of him, took hold of the purse and said, you don’t want to do this.  He let go of the purse and I stood aside.

i was in a grocery store parking lot when I saw a woman being robbed at knife point about 30 yards away from me. I started walking towards them and about half way there made eye contact with the robber.  I kept walking towards them and when I was about 5 or 6 steps away he turned towards me briefly, knife in hand and then turned and ran.

In case you’re curious I’m about 5’9” and not an imposing figure.

I think I have an avatar for you.

 

[jdf135]

Wow.  I guess I'll take the coward moniker.  I've been called worse (or have I?).  Anyway...

I guess I'm the only LDS who thinks there are unhealthily gun-obsessed people or that carrying death machines all over the place may not be safe.   I have heard about the 2nd amendment.  I seem to recall it says something about "organized" militia.   Regardless, I will resign myself to the apparent fact that I am the only "Mormon" who believes there are just too many disorganized minds in this world carrying too many crazy death tools in disorganized ways (sigh).  

In retreat, I cowardly admit I feel like the late General Omar Bradley ,

“We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount. … Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living.” (General Omar Bradley as quoted in Louis Fischer, The Life of Mahatma Gandhi, New York: Harper and Brothers, Publishers, 1950, p. 349.)

(Hey, maybe I won't feel so lonely in the next life!  Yo! Omar......)

[let’s roll]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I think I have an avatar for you.

 

Well I couldn’t claim I wasn’t an imposing figure if I was rocking that mustache!!  😀

[Colirio]

For every "keep the Sabbath Day holy" there is an equal justification to get your ox out of the mire. 

 

Just as the Anti-Nephi-Lehies were justified in refusing to take up the sword, the Nephites were equally justified in defending their families even if meant taking the life of another. 

 

The truth is that each of us should take the Holy Spirit as our guide and decide what the Lord wants us to do individually. This could even change on a day to day, case by case basis. 

 

I admire the courage exhibited by those who take up arms in defense of others! I also admire the courage of those who choose to exercise restraint in such circumstances, if they feel that this is what the Lord would have then to do. 

 

[Guest]

Just now, let’s roll said:

Well I couldn’t claim I wasn’t an imposing figure if I was rocking that mustache!!  😀

It is true that there have been some men in history that have had divine protection and even had some power over others simply by looking at them.  Wyatt Earp was one such man. 

Many first hand account talked of times when he would be able to look at a man who had a gun pointed directly at him and stare him down to the point where they simply lost all composure and couldn't pull the trigger.  So, what you saw depicted in Tombstone was a true trait of his.

Accounts also tell of things like Willard Richards where Earp was in a hailstorm of bullets where others were falling right and left.  But he was unharmed.

George Washington was apparently bulletproof.  He told in his own letters to his family and friends of times when he'd come back from a battle and began undressing.  He found holes in his jacket, shirt, and undergarments.  And some flattened balls near his skin.  But he was unharmed.

After he became President, he once sat down with a chief of an Indian tribe who admitted to him that he wasn't as interested in meeting the the US President as he was in meeting the man whom bullets could not harm.  He told of how during the previous years of war with the White man, he had encountered Washington on his horse.  Several of his best marksmen shot at him at fairly close range and he seemed unphased.  They repeated their efforts to no avail.  They couldn't believe what they were seeing.

If you have divine protection, then consider yourself blessed.  But don't expect the rest of us mere mortals to depend on the same thing because we may not have it.

[let’s roll]

4 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

Wow.  I guess I'll take the coward moniker.  I've been called worse (or have I?).  Anyway...

I guess I'm the only LDS who thinks there are unhealthily gun-obsessed people or that carrying death machines all over the place may not be safe.   I have heard about the 2nd amendment.  I seem to recall it says something about "organized" militia.   Regardless, I will resign myself to the apparent fact that I am the only "Mormon" who believes there are just too many disorganized minds in this world carrying too many crazy death tools in disorganized ways (sigh).  

In retreat, I cowardly admit I feel like the late General Omar Bradley ,

“We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount. … Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living.” (General Omar Bradley as quoted in Louis Fischer, The Life of Mahatma Gandhi, New York: Harper and Brothers, Publishers, 1950, p. 349.)

(Hey, maybe I won't feel so lonely in the next life!  Yo! Omar......)

Smile.  Take comfort in the fact that I’m convinced that all of your gun toting brothers and sisters at their core love and respect you, even if you might be unable to find common ground on this issue.

 I can’t relate to the desire to want to own a gun but have no problem respecting that desire.  

Corlino’s post of a moment ago reflects a noble admiration for folks with differing opinions on this topic and I echo that admiration.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, jdf135 said:

Wow.  I guess I'll take the coward moniker.  I've been called worse (or have I?).  Anyway...

I guess I'm the only LDS who thinks there are unhealthily gun-obsessed people or that carrying death machines all over the place may not be safe.   I have heard about the 2nd amendment.  I seem to recall it says something about "organized" militia.

Nope.  "Organized" is not in the 2nd Amendment anywhere.

Quote

  Regardless, I will resign myself to the apparent fact that I am the only "Mormon" who believes there are just too many disorganized minds in this world carrying too many crazy death tools in disorganized ways (sigh).  

No.  I'd agree with that assessment.  But most of them are criminals.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Guest

[let’s roll]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It is true that there have been some men in history that have had divine protection and even had some power over others simply by looking at them.  Wyatt Earp was one such man. 

Many first hand account talked of times when he would be able to look at a man who had a gun pointed directly at him and stare him down to the point where they simply lost all composure and couldn't pull the trigger.  So, what you saw depicted in Tombstone was a true trait of his.

Accounts also tell of things like Willard Richards where Earp was in a hailstorm of bullets where others were falling right and left.  But he was unharmed.

George Washington was apparently bulletproof.  He told in his own letters to his family and friends of times when he'd come back from a battle and began undressing.  He found holes in his jacket, shirt, and undergarments.  And some flattened balls near his skin.  But he was unharmed.

After he became President, he once sat down with a chief of an Indian tribe who admitted to him that he wasn't as interested in meeting the the US President as he was in meeting the man whom bullets could not harm.  He told of how during the previous years of war with the White man, he had encountered Washington on his horse.  Several of his best marksmen shot at him at fairly close range and he seemed unphased.  They repeated their efforts to no avail.  They couldn't believe what they were seeing.

If you have divine protection, then consider yourself blessed.  But don't expect the rest of us mere mortals to depend on the same thing because we may not have it.

Fascinating.  Thanks for these insights.  

I don’t claim any special divine protection but have been told I’m unsually calm in dangerous and chaotic situations.  That bolsters my belief that my vertigo is a physical and not a psychological condition. 😀

[Guest MormonGator]

2 hours ago, let’s roll said:

  I’ve mentioned to you before how much I enjoy your posts and that applies equally to those on this thread.

I really do appreciate that. Even when I disagree, it's never personal. It's only personal between @Vort and I. I have a serious vendetta with that guy. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, jdf135 said:

I know.  I am a fuzzy-brained extreme pacifist.  You are allowed to pity me.  Namaste, peace, love, Ghandi, MLK, and groovy moonbeams✌️ .  

Ok.  If you really want my pity, you can have it.  I have no idea what Namaste is.

But there was this one dream I had where I was walking on a moonbeam and... uhmm... nevermind.

[mirkwood]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

You found a link for it!  Vort, you're my hero.  All I've had for 20 years is this quote, and a claim it was published in some journal somewhere.

I could have provided that quote to you   I'm just sayin'.