GaleG

Slaying Laban to get the plates

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Hello,
 
Would you help me understand these verses in context.
 
"For behold, Laban hath the record of the Jews and also a genealogy of my forefathers,  
and they are engraven upon plates of brass" (1 Nephi 3:3).
 
"And after they had given thanks unto the God of Israel, my father, Lehi, took the  
records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, and he did search them from  
the beginning. And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which  
gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were  
our first parents; And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to  
the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah" (1 Nephi 5:12).
 
What does it mean "a record of the Jews from the beginning"?  When did the Jewish
record begin?
 
Were Laban's brass plates the only source of genealogy in all of Israel available
to Lehi?  Did Lehi know which tribe he was from as he was growing up?
 
"And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord  
hath delivered him into thy hands; Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring  
forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that  
a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief" (1 Nephi 4:13).
 
What nation did not perish in unbelief by the death of Laban?
 
Thank you,
 
Gale

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2 minutes ago, GaleG said:

What does it mean "a record of the Jews from the beginning"?  When did the Jewish
record begin?

In our language, it could be read as “Laban had the Old Testament up until the book of Jeremiah (who was the prophet at the time). From what I understand, copies of the scripture were not common in house holds. Laban, who was related to them, had a record of their genealogy and the scriptures up to that point in time.

 

4 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Were Laban's brass plates the only source of genealogy in all of Israel available
to Lehi?

I think it was just a familial genealogy that he was interested in that only Laban had. Im sure there were more scripture but that copy had his family’s genealogy.

 

5 minutes ago, GaleG said:

Did Lehi know which tribe he was from as he was growing up?

I would assume so, I am under the impression that tribes were a pretty big deal among the time period

 

6 minutes ago, GaleG said:

What nation did not perish in unbelief by the death of Laban?

The Nephites

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3 minutes ago, Fether said:

In our language, it could be read as “Laban had the Old Testament up until the book of Jeremiah (who was the prophet at the time). From what I understand, copies of the scripture were not common in house holds. Laban, who was related to them, had a record of their genealogy and the scriptures up to that point in time.

 

I think it was just a familial genealogy that he was interested in that only Laban had. Im sure there were more scripture but that copy had his family’s genealogy.

 

I would assume so, I am under the impression that tribes were a pretty big deal among the time period

 

The Nephites

Thank you.

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4 hours ago, GaleG said:

What does it mean "a record of the Jews from the beginning"?  When did the Jewish
record begin?

Well, again, read the next few verses...

Quote

11 And he beheld that they did contain the five books of Moses, which gave an account of the creation of the world, and also of Adam and Eve, who were our first parents;

12 And also a record of the Jews from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah;

13 And also the prophecies of the holy prophets, from the beginning, even down to the commencement of the reign of Zedekiah; and also many prophecies which have been spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah.

So, apparently:  From the creation (that's about a beginning as you can get:  "In the beginning"...)

4 hours ago, GaleG said:

Were Laban's brass plates the only source of genealogy in all of Israel available
to Lehi?

We don't know.  But we do know a couple of things:

1) Being written on brass, they were more durable than those written on some other medium. 
2) They needed as complete a record as possible.  And this was at least one of (if not the only) source that had it all in one durable volume.
3) As Fether mentioned, the genealogy was important.

4 hours ago, GaleG said:

Did Lehi know which tribe he was from as he was growing up?

Since they knew where the "Lands of their inheritance" were, then yes.  They knew at least that much.  But the additional details of their genealogy were of value as well.

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The record of the Jews from the Beginning  is stating that the Brass plates started with Moses’ writings Genesis, Exodus, etc... 

As opposed to starting with Adam’s writing, see the book of remembrance 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/book-of-remembrance?lang=eng

 

Alma 10:3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

Edited by mikbone

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On 11/11/2018 at 2:30 PM, GaleG said:

What nation did not perish in unbelief by the death of Laban?
 
Thank you,
 
Gale

 

On 11/11/2018 at 2:36 PM, Fether said:

The Nephites

Apart from the 3 Nephite disciples, were there other Nephites or Mulekites who did not perish in unbelief?

Thanks,
Jim

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5 hours ago, theplains said:

Apart from the 3 Nephite disciples, were there other Nephites or Mulekites who did not perish in unbelief?

Thanks,
Jim

How many people does the BoM describe or mention?  How many of them were faithful to the end of their lives?

Edited by Guest

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

 

Apart from the 3 Nephite disciples, were there other Nephites or Mulekites who did not perish in unbelief?

Thanks,
Jim

All the faithful nephites that died between 600BC - 421 AD

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This story bothers me.

I think it's a story of Nephis failure, not his success. There were a number of solutions to the problem. Buying them was one. I think the 4 brothers were sent together to get them so they could do a mass transcription while paying laban for the privilege.

Nephi could even have written them out via revelation. There was more than one solution. But nephi fixated on the plates of Laban which were believed original but that seems unlikely.

I believe God would have facilitated most any solution but Nephi seems to not have been thinking outside the box much. Death, deception as tools of God strike me as human failure getting patched up by God rather than God's ideal path.

Zoram could have been added to any of the paths I suspect.

 

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On 11/17/2018 at 9:10 PM, dogwater said:

This story bothers me.

I think it's a story of Nephis failure, not his success. There were a number of solutions to the problem. Buying them was one. I think the 4 brothers were sent together to get them so they could do a mass transcription while paying laban for the privilege.

Nephi could even have written them out via revelation. There was more than one solution. But nephi fixated on the plates of Laban which were believed original but that seems unlikely.

I believe God would have facilitated most any solution but Nephi seems to not have been thinking outside the box much. Death, deception as tools of God strike me as human failure getting patched up by God rather than God's ideal path.

Zoram could have been added to any of the paths I suspect.

 

Not sure I understand. Are you saying Nephi was the only person commanded by the Holy Ghost to
kill a defenseless man?

Gale

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On 11/17/2018 at 7:10 PM, dogwater said:

This story bothers me.

I think it's a story of Nephis failure, not his success. There were a number of solutions to the problem. Buying them was one. I think the 4 brothers were sent together to get them so they could do a mass transcription while paying laban for the privilege.

Nephi could even have written them out via revelation. There was more than one solution. But nephi fixated on the plates of Laban which were believed original but that seems unlikely.

I believe God would have facilitated most any solution but Nephi seems to not have been thinking outside the box much. Death, deception as tools of God strike me as human failure getting patched up by God rather than God's ideal path.

Zoram could have been added to any of the paths I suspect.

 

xiomara-spadafora-wolf-in-sheeps-clothin

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1 hour ago, GaleG said:

Not sure I understand. Are you saying Nephi was the only person commanded by the Holy Ghost to
kill a defenseless man?

Gale

 Only a minority of promptings make it into scripture so there's no way to answer that really.

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There are other scriptures that show failure of the character. Jonah,  Moses and the spring come to mind immediately. Oh and David.

The brother of Jared when presented with the lighting concerns puzzles out a solution on his own to present for approval. While I fully admit the laban story interpretation above is my own, it seems in keeping with other stories and their interpretations.

 

Edited by dogwater

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On 11/17/2018 at 7:10 PM, dogwater said:

This story bothers me.

I think it's a story of Nephis failure, not his success. There were a number of solutions to the problem. Buying them was one. I think the 4 brothers were sent together to get them so they could do a mass transcription while paying laban for the privilege.

Nephi could even have written them out via revelation. There was more than one solution. But nephi fixated on the plates of Laban which were believed original but that seems unlikely.

I believe God would have facilitated most any solution but Nephi seems to not have been thinking outside the box much. Death, deception as tools of God strike me as human failure getting patched up by God rather than God's ideal path.

Zoram could have been added to any of the paths I suspect.

 

Oh my goodness so much bull rappers here. This bolder section clearly shows you don’t know what you are talking about. They tried buying them.

What makes you think this is a failure? Why couldn’t this have been exactly what needed to happen?

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7 minutes ago, dogwater said:

I know they tried buying them. I mentioned that to show that they did try a few things. But there were still more choices.

But why are you so insistent that this was a failure “patched up by God”? God uses death all the time to accomplish his means. 

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2 hours ago, GaleG said:

Not sure I understand. Are you saying Nephi was the only person commanded by the Holy Ghost to
kill a defenseless man?

Gale

What he doesn't understand is that this wasn't a murder.  It was an execution.  God is the King of Kings.  He is the ultimate governing authority.  He  has the right to decide who lives and who dies because He is the only one who can have perfect knowledge and perfect judgment in the matter.

CREDIT: The following was something @Vort said a while back.  But I've pondered this for a while and have decided that I agree with it.

  • When Laman first went to visit Laban to ask for the plates, Laban said 1) You're a thief and 2) I'm going to kill you for being a thief.
  • When they visited Laban the second time to try to BUY the plates with all their wealth, Laban became a thief, and still tried to kill them all to hide the fact.
  • The third time, the Lord pronounced sentence.  Laban was a thief and pronounced judgment upon him by his own standards.

"Judge not lest ye be judged.  For with that same judgment with which ye judge, ye shall also be judged."

Edited by Guest

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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What he doesn't understand is that this wasn't a murder.

Clearly, in God's eyes it wasn't a murder. But subjectively, whether it was or not by the law of the land is debatable.

What isn't debatable? This:

 

an angel of the Lord came...and he spake...saying...Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.

And I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.

And it came to pass that I was constrained by the Spirit that I should kill Laban;

And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands.

And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword.

 

I mean, give me a freaking break dogwater. How much more obvious can it be that this was the Lord's will? The scripture only go into repetitive and detailed depth on the matter that God commanded it.

Ronald A Rasband explains in Oct 2017

We can see such heavenly intervention when Nephi returns to get the plates from Laban. He “was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things [that he] should do." Laban was soon before him in a drunken stupor, and Nephi slew him, retrieved the plates, and fled back to his brothers. Was he fortunate to just happen upon Laban? Or was it by “divine design”?

Significant events unfold in the gospel and in the Church that further the kingdom of God on earth. They are not by accident but by God’s plan. He who fashioned this world can calm the seas with His word and can steer both Alma and Amulek and Nephi and Laban to be at the right place at precisely the right time.

L. Tom Perry in Oct 73

After much internal strife and contention, Nephi decides to put his complete trust in the Lord and under the cover of night, seeks after the record. Laban is delivered into his hands in a drunken state and the Lord teaches Nephi a great lesson about the value of history.

Thomas S. Monson in April 86

“And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” (1 Ne. 3:1–7.)

When that same call comes to you and to me, what will be our response? Will we murmur, as did Laman and Lemuel, and say, “This is a hard thing required of us”? Or will we, with Nephi, individually declare, “I will go. I will do”?

Ofttimes the wisdom of God appears as foolishness to men, but the greatest single lesson we can learn in mortality is that, when God speaks and a man obeys, man will always be right.

etc.

But clearly this random internet theory is more insightful. Let's all get on the "prophet's are just a bunch of magoos" bandwagon! Yay for the internet!

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1 hour ago, dogwater said:

There are other scriptures that show failure of the character. Jonah,  Moses and the spring come to mind immediately. Oh and David.

The brother of Jared when presented with the lighting concerns puzzles out a solution on his own to present for approval. While I fully admit the laban story interpretation above is my own, it seems in keeping with other stories and their interpretations.

In the scriptural accounts of Jonah, Moses, and David, their sins / mistakes are called out as such from the beginning.  The scripture makes no effort to dress these up as deeds commanded by the Lord.

But the story of Laban, start to last, makes it out as killing Laban was done at the Spirit's insistent instruction.  So either this event is different, or Nephi's a liar and the Lord willfully let Nephi's lies make it through both Mormon and Joseph Smith as-is.  Seems absurd to me.

In the story of the brother of Jared and lighting the vessels, the Lord tells him to come up with his own idea and then the Lord supports it.  Nephi and his brothers came up with their own ideas, and when those failed, the Lord instructed Nephi what to do - and guided him to basically trip over Laban's drunken body.

On 11/17/2018 at 7:10 PM, dogwater said:

I think it's a story of Nephis failure, not his success. There were a number of solutions to the problem. Buying them was one. I think the 4 brothers were sent together to get them so they could do a mass transcription while paying laban for the privilege.

Nephi could even have written them out via revelation. There was more than one solution. But nephi fixated on the plates of Laban which were believed original but that seems unlikely.

I believe God would have facilitated most any solution but Nephi seems to not have been thinking outside the box much. Death, deception as tools of God strike me as human failure getting patched up by God rather than God's ideal path.

Zoram could have been added to any of the paths I suspect.

So spell out the options...

1) If God could just re-reveal them to Nephi, (a) why send them in the first place (or did Lehi misunderstand his instructions?)?  (b) why have Mormon abridge the plates - just reveal anew what Joseph needed to restore; (c) why write scripture at all - just reveal anew whenever it's needed - like when the Lord had (3) Nephi record things they had neglected, and then add more - why bother?  Clearly the Lord works through written records and only reveals anew when necessary.

Further, God could have "magicked" the plates from place A to place B, if he'd really wanted (e.g. send an angel to transport them), but he didn't.  Clearly miraculous mechanisms skirting the agency of those involved were ruled out.

2) If Laban tried to kill them just for asking for the plates, and again when they offered to buy the plates, what on earth makes you think he might have agreed to rent them out!?

3) Now that we've eliminated beg, borrow, rent, and buy, the only thing left is theft - there are only so many ways to obtain possession of an object that is currently in another person's possession.

Now perhaps you're thinking that Laban died so that Nephi could get the plates.  Perhaps that (plus 21st century thinking) is what's upsetting to you.  But have you not considered what would have happened had Laban lived?  If you can imagine a zillion options for obtaining the plates (and please do list the zillion-5 that I haven't mentioned above), then surely you can imagine a zillion scenarios for what would have happened had Laban lived - so please list them out (and try to remember that he was a man in a position of power and authority, not just their curmudgeonly uncle).

Edited by zil

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On 11/17/2018 at 9:04 AM, theplains said:

Apart from the 3 Nephite disciples, were there other Nephites or Mulekites who did not perish in unbelief?

Thanks,
Jim

Hey there, Jim. Any plans to answer the many questions we have put to you?

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2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Clearly, in God's eyes it wasn't a murder. But subjectively, whether it was or not by the law of the land is debatable.

Debatable, but unimportant for two reasons.

1) God has jurisdiction over all. What were we told during the pre-pioneer days of persecution? We should seek redress from the governing body of the land, And WHEN that fails, leave it to the Lord.  He will override the failures of governments.

2) The law of the land was the Law of Moses. And who was the author of that law?  Who runs that Supreme Court?

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2) The law of the land was the Law of Moses

Maybe.   600 BC is kind of a grey area when it comes to history in that region, both Biblical and non-Biblical sources.  Assyria fell circa 609 BC.  The Babylonians laid siege to Jerusalem in circa 597 BC.  Babylonian and Assyrian Laws (and history) are known and written (see for example the Sennacherib's Annals), but the time period between 609 BC and 597 BC was a period of warring kings and warlords, which set the stage for the fall of Jerusalem (which according the BOM, is what Lehi's family was fleeing).  I don't know (perhaps no one does) if the Law of Moses was the law of the land during this time period, but it seems rather unlikely.  Of note, contemporary timelines put Zedikiah's first year of reign at 596 to 598 BC.

Anyway, I'm just posting this for history buffs.   It really isn't that important in the big scheme of things.  

  

Edited by Scott

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