Visitations

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Why don't Apostles share stories about divine visitations the way Joseph and others did in the early days?

[Fether]

5 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Why don't Apostles share stories about divine visitations the way Joseph and others did in the early days?

Divine visitations have a purpose and the majority of the ones JSjr had dealt with the passing of keys and the introduction of restored principles/doctrines of the gospel. 

But other than that I am not sure. Perhaps it is because people back the. Treated such visitations more sacred my than would today so it is just to protect us from taking lightly sacred things???

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Divine visitations have a purpose and the majority of the ones JSjr had dealt with the passing of keys and the introduction of restored principles/doctrines of the gospel. 

But other than that I am not sure. Perhaps it is because people back the. Treated such visitations more sacred my than would today so it is just to protect us from taking lightly sacred things???

I highly doubt that faithful members would treat such things lightly. Could it be because they do not have physical manifestations, but it is all through confirmation by the Holy Ghost?

[Fether]

36 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I highly doubt that faithful members would treat such things lightly. Could it be because they do not have physical manifestations, but it is all through confirmation by the Holy Ghost?

I would belief that too

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Why don't Apostles share stories about divine visitations the way Joseph and others did in the early days?

1) Purpose

2) Sacred Nature

3) They do share in private circles sacred experiences, and often ask that the experience not be publicized. I remember at BYU Elder Maxwell sharing a sacred experience and then asking that this address not be published because he shared a sacred experience. I have looked for this address and it was never published, and if so, I haven't been able to find it.

4) These types of experiences shouldn't be shared unless directed by the Spirit, which correlates with #1 and #2. If we share to casually sacred and spiritual experiences sometimes God then stops those. Isn't there a story with BY and Joseph Smith regarding BY saying Joseph could keep a better secret.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Why don't Apostles share stories about divine visitations the way Joseph and others did in the early days?

I would attribute it to cultural norms and expectations as well as having learned "by sad experience."  I think this why we see the explanation offered by Anddenex.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

14 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

1) Purpose

2) Sacred Nature

3) They do share in private circles sacred experiences, and often ask that the experience not be publicized. I remember at BYU Elder Maxwell sharing a sacred experience and then asking that this address not be published because he shared a sacred experience. I have looked for this address and it was never published, and if so, I haven't been able to find it.

4) These types of experiences shouldn't be shared unless directed by the Spirit, which correlates with #1 and #2. If we share to casually sacred and spiritual experiences sometimes God then stops those. Isn't there a story with BY and Joseph Smith regarding BY saying Joseph could keep a better secret.

I would not be surprised to find out that the Lord does not want it shared because it could affect our ability to use our agency.

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I would not be surprised to find out that the Lord does not want it shared because it could affect our ability to use our agency.

I agree, and I would add to that a little. As humans we have a tendency to trust another person's story without seeking a witness ourselves. Since Adam the prophets have wanted us to come back into the presence of the Father. If we heard wonderful stories all the time, we may not exercise faith to "know" for ourselves and rely upon the gift simply to believe another's witness. We loose out on spiritual self-reliance.

[mikbone]

[JohnsonJones]

5 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Why don't Apostles share stories about divine visitations the way Joseph and others did in the early days?

In this manner, one would say I have had a divine visitation.  I was blessed to see the Lord. 

I do not talk about it much.  He has spoken some very personal things.  In addition, he has said things that would not be easily understood by most people, including members.  Because they would not understand why or the reasons behind it, they might despise such a thing.  They were hard things for me to understand and some of the items still are difficult. 

Most of the time, one of the first things someone wants to ask if they know that you have seen the Lord and he talked to you is to ask what he told you.  This leads to a difficult position.  This is a very sacred thing and if people knew all about it, there would be many that would probably despise it, mock it or worse.  They would take a sacred experience and try to create an unholy shame upon it and perhaps upon me. 

Thus, I am typically more careful about sharing it.  I may mention (as I did here) about being visited, but I am VERY careful about saying more than that.  The last thing I would want is to have others take a sacred experience like that lightly and try to make a mockery of it.  It may not affect me as I know what I have experienced, but it may desensitize them to the feelings of the spirit or worse.  In the most extreme, with their struggles or mockery it may even make them to fall away if they were not careful.

We see a similar type of thing happen with Joseph Smith.  Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ.  At first, it does not sound as if he shared the entirety of it.  He would tell people that he saw a divine visitation.  Even then he was mocked by many around him.  As he grew more comfortable with friends and others we see that his account details more of what happened and we find out that he was visited by two personages.  He saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. 

I have a testimony that this is true and that he truly saw and experienced this.  However, there are MANY who have rejected this message.  There are many that mock this story or try to tear it down and destroy it.  Inevitably, this leads them down paths that are not congruent with the way to the Lord.

Joseph Smith was not the only one to have seen the resurrected Savior.  We have testimonies of others who have seen him in our modern dispensation who have been leaders of the Church.  With all these testimonies, people already have the opportunity to know about this and have several witnesses to this effect.  As such, it is not necessary for any who experience such things to broadly proclaim it so all can know, at least at this point.  It is more for each individual and more on an individual basis.

Apostles are called to be Special Witnesses.  Though he has passed on, Elder Haight of the modern apostles had a vision of the Lord.  I have also heard that Bednar also has had an experience.  I do not know of others as they may or may not have, but keep these things sacred unless occasion arises where the spirit inspires them to discuss it.

The reason I imagine they do not share it so much is the same reason I do not share my experience that much.  Many things are personal, and many things can be hard to understand to those who do not have the right spirit. 

In the church today we have many at various levels of spirituality.  It is better to be able to determine the spirituality of a person and on a more individual basis (or smaller basis than the entire world or church) in many instances when sharing sacred items. 

Thus, I would say is an idea that there are experiences, but they may be too sacred to share.  It is not that it is necessarily to sacred to share specifically, but it is something that is too sacred to share in general to the world in many instances.  I cannot speak for any of the others, but I think that this may be a large factor in the equation if they have had this type of experience but do not share it with the general audience of the world (for example, over the pulpit at General Conference).  Perhaps in the future one will share it in such a way, but if they do not, it does not mean anything either way.

As Special Witnesses they are to teach the world about Jesus Christ.  They are to spread his gospel and proclaim that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and our Savior.  They can do this in the matter the spirit inspires or tells them to do so.  We see this often when we hear General Conference or when they visit the various units around the Earth.  It is not pertinent that they share a divine visitation in such a work, though if they have had such a visitation and are prompted to share it by the Lord, I imagine they would do so.  That they have not done so last Conference (that I'm aware of) or do so often does not make them any less a Special Witness any more than us not receiving the other books (yet) from the other twelve tribes reduces the idea that there were other people beyond just those of Jerusalem and the Nephites that the Lord visited after his resurrection.

[Anddenex]

5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

In this manner, one would say I have had a divine visitation.  I was blessed to see the Lord. 

I do not talk about it much.  He has spoken some very personal things.  In addition, he has said things that would not be easily understood by most people, including members.  Because they would not understand why or the reasons behind it, they might despise such a thing.  They were hard things for me to understand and some of the items still are difficult. 

Most of the time, one of the first things someone wants to ask if they know that you have seen the Lord and he talked to you is to ask what he told you.  This leads to a difficult position.  This is a very sacred thing and if people knew all about it, there would be many that would probably despise it, mock it or worse.  They would take a sacred experience and try to create an unholy shame upon it and perhaps upon me. 

Thus, I am typically more careful about sharing it.  I may mention (as I did here) about being visited, but I am VERY careful about saying more than that.  The last thing I would want is to have others take a sacred experience like that lightly and try to make a mockery of it.  It may not affect me as I know what I have experienced, but it may desensitize them to the feelings of the spirit or worse.  In the most extreme, with their struggles or mockery it may even make them to fall away if they were not careful.

We see a similar type of thing happen with Joseph Smith.  Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ.  At first, it does not sound as if he shared the entirety of it.  He would tell people that he saw a divine visitation.  Even then he was mocked by many around him.  As he grew more comfortable with friends and others we see that his account details more of what happened and we find out that he was visited by two personages.  He saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. 

I have a testimony that this is true and that he truly saw and experienced this.  However, there are MANY who have rejected this message.  There are many that mock this story or try to tear it down and destroy it.  Inevitably, this leads them down paths that are not congruent with the way to the Lord.

Joseph Smith was not the only one to have seen the resurrected Savior.  We have testimonies of others who have seen him in our modern dispensation who have been leaders of the Church.  With all these testimonies, people already have the opportunity to know about this and have several witnesses to this effect.  As such, it is not necessary for any who experience such things to broadly proclaim it so all can know, at least at this point.  It is more for each individual and more on an individual basis.

Apostles are called to be Special Witnesses.  Though he has passed on, Elder Haight of the modern apostles had a vision of the Lord.  I have also heard that Bednar also has had an experience.  I do not know of others as they may or may not have, but keep these things sacred unless occasion arises where the spirit inspires them to discuss it.

The reason I imagine they do not share it so much is the same reason I do not share my experience that much.  Many things are personal, and many things can be hard to understand to those who do not have the right spirit. 

In the church today we have many at various levels of spirituality.  It is better to be able to determine the spirituality of a person and on a more individual basis (or smaller basis than the entire world or church) in many instances when sharing sacred items. 

Thus, I would say is an idea that there are experiences, but they may be too sacred to share.  It is not that it is necessarily to sacred to share specifically, but it is something that is too sacred to share in general to the world in many instances.  I cannot speak for any of the others, but I think that this may be a large factor in the equation if they have had this type of experience but do not share it with the general audience of the world (for example, over the pulpit at General Conference).  Perhaps in the future one will share it in such a way, but if they do not, it does not mean anything either way.

As Special Witnesses they are to teach the world about Jesus Christ.  They are to spread his gospel and proclaim that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and our Savior.  They can do this in the matter the spirit inspires or tells them to do so.  We see this often when we hear General Conference or when they visit the various units around the Earth.  It is not pertinent that they share a divine visitation in such a work, though if they have had such a visitation and are prompted to share it by the Lord, I imagine they would do so.  That they have not done so last Conference (that I'm aware of) or do so often does not make them any less a Special Witness any more than us not receiving the other books (yet) from the other twelve tribes reduces the idea that there were other people beyond just those of Jerusalem and the Nephites that the Lord visited after his resurrection.

Well said and stated.

[Traveler]

23 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Why don't Apostles share stories about divine visitations the way Joseph and others did in the early days?

Finding truth is not a matter of how it came to anyone else - it is a matter of how, we as individuals, come to know, understand and incorporate it.  There is a general assumption that one cannot comprehend the truth discovered by others until they have discovered it in the same manner.  But spiritual things are not learned or understood empirically and do not follow the scientific method - we must learn of such things ourselves customized to our individual needs, talents and spiritual gifts (see Moroni Chapter 10).

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

There is an additional factor to why Random Joe Internet claims of divine revelation/instruction/guidance gets rejected...  Because the Lord has explicitly told us to reject it.  The scriptures are clear that God is a God of order and has his organization is place to give us a sure understanding of who speaks for him.  Any claims outside that path is deception plan and simple.

Does this mean that Random Joe Internet can't get personal revelations?  Of course not... It simply means that is is personal and private and should be treated as such.  The public revelations come through the Lord's appointed channels.  If Random Joe Internet revelation is in harmony with what the Lord has chosen to reveal then he can bear testimony of such... 

If it is not then either Random Joe Internet have a false understanding or the Lord bless him with something he has not see fit to reveal to the rest of the world.  Both cases make it utterly and totally wrong for Random Joe Internet to start proclaiming his 'revelation'

By all accounts the Church loves new guidance and direction... (See any of President Nelson recent changes)  But we are highly resistant to it coming from any other source for very faithful, rational and logical reasons. 

 

[Guest Mores]

On 3/11/2019 at 11:29 AM, Fether said:

Divine visitations have a purpose and the majority of the ones JSjr had dealt with the passing of keys and the introduction of restored principles/doctrines of the gospel. 

Isn't this ^^^ sufficient explanation?  All the visions/revelations recorded in scriptures are those that were for ALL.  Not everything that Joseph experienced was to be shared with all.  

Many revelations the Prophet may receive are instructions rather than new doctrine. i.e. instructions on what the Prophet is to do in regards to the Church (such as emphasizing the name of the Church or implementing a new program).  Such instruction doesn't always come with an inherent (share this with the whole Church).

Additionally, I believe since then, we have been held under condemnation.  So, for now, all we're receiving is the instructions on how the Church is to be run, not new scripture.

If we treated the word more reverently, we'd receive even more scripture.  But we're not.  So we won't.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Mores