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Carborendum

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

To go along with the remainder of your post, I'd point out that (quite honestly, both sides) don't care about facts or consistency anymore.  They care about "How can I criticize the other guy for doing something great while I praise my guy for doing something really badly?"

Isn't that a sign of a wicked and adulterous generation?

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27 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That would be "seeking for a sign."

There are plenty of other signs of a wicked and adulterous generation besides "seeking for a sign". Primarily hypocrisy; which is what Christ was calling out.  Hypocrisy because they seek for signs, but do not believe signs.

Edited by BobMaster

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9 hours ago, BobMaster said:

There are plenty of other signs of a wicked and adulterous generation besides "seeking for a sign". Primarily hypocrisy; which is what Christ was calling out.  Hypocrisy because they seek for signs, but do not believe signs.

I have no problem believing that.  But is there a scripture that specifically links hypocrisy to "a wicked and adulterous generation"?

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21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I have no problem believing that.  But is there a scripture that specifically links hypocrisy to "a wicked and adulterous generation"?

Remember that every single generation from the dawn of civilization thought that their generation was wicked and that the end was near, @Carborendum

To me, it's a little bit like waking up every morning and saying "Today is the day I'm going to die." Well, eventually you'll be right, but that doesn't mean you are a prophet. 

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"...Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. WE CALL UPON responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

The Family: A Proclamation to the World, 1995

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17 hours ago, Traveler said:

@Carborendum @NeuroTypical and others - I have tried to make sense of what I have seen the last few months.  I witnessed a reporter praise Gov, Cuomo as an example of the best leadership in the wold concerning COVID-19.  I wished I could have gone live with this reporter and ask just one simple question - Since they thought Cuomo had done such a great job - would they provide just one place in this world where the leadership has actually acted worse, made more critical mistakes and had worse results.  People in great numbers are willing to stand in the bright sun of mid day and passionately lie that it is night.

I do not believe Trump or our fabulous free press has done that much to brag that they have provided what this country needs to make correct choices concerning COVID-19 or any other political division currently going on.   To be honest if the trends of the last few months hold - I do not see how the country I thought I belonged to can remain.  We are as divided over COVID-19 as we have been about anything in our history - and I do not see any coming together.  Few realize that before the allied forces were able to engage the axis powers in battle in WWII - we had to first fight a literal battle among ourselves.  Yes - we had to fight the French navy before we could put troops in Africa.  And the French navy was still resisting the Germans even though their country had surrendered to Germany.  And yet they were still willing to fight with the only remaining allies over who would be in command of forces.

And so I see more support for riots burning and destroying property in a time of great crisis to our businesses and economy - and the press has been more critical of a lady trying to reopen her hair styling business and avoid bankruptcy.  This country has gone mad and as divided as we are - I see no resolution  in the upcoming election.  This country is so divided that even if there was someone that can win this next election - I believe we would still remain more divided and more vulnerable than we have ever been to the enemies of freedom and liberty - both foreign and domestic.

 

The Traveler

I don't think Cuomo did particularly well in his response in New York, but I think he shines because of the lack of Trump's own leadership in crisis.  Comparatively, Cuomo was decisive, made decisions, was publically open about them, took the advice of SOME medical advisors, and didn't spout off as much at the mouth on his own pet theories. 

In that way, Cuomo seems spectacular in US leadership comparatively, at least to most people who are not hard core conservatives in the Trump camp (who would all claim Trump is the second coming...or close to it perhaps with how Trump can do no wrong.  There are those that think Trump is doing an outstanding job, but the numbers of infections and deaths in relation to the rest of the US population in a short two months would indicate that we have the worst numbers in relation to almost anyplace else in the world...though I hear Sweden and Brazil are giving us a run for our numbers). 

Still, New York was a disaster worse than just about anyplace else in the World.  Cuomo tried to blame Trump for some of the problems, but just like Trump should have been able to, Cuomo should have also seen the danger signs a mile away (...slang for...having seen it coming a long time before it did) and taken preparations to quash it before it became crisis.  He did not, and he's ALL to blame for it in my book.  His inaction resulted in a large number of deaths in New York.

Fortunately for him, it seems to be settling out in New York, though it is now rising in the US drastically.  It's now over the 96K deaths that were predicted by some and on it's way to higher numbers (and WAAAY past Trumps 60K thoughts just a few weeks ago). 

Cuomo did a pretty terrible job overall in New York, but it pales to how the US is dealing with it.  When nations with a FAR higher population density than the US (and in some places, even than New York) are seeing the virus all but gone, some with a very low percentage of deaths to population compared to the US...it speaks how badly the US is actually doing in dealing with this virus.

Estimates of normal Pneumonia deaths and predictions based on data and science going back for 70 years show that something is causing ~160% MORE deaths from Pneumonia in the US this year thus far at this point (which is one reason MANY are saying the number of Covid Deaths are being under-reported, because they do not see any other thing that could cause such a drastic anomaly...a 5% deviation may be considered something else...but 160%...something is going on, and if not Covid we have something VERY serious going on behind the scenes we are not even aware of to cause that big of a jump in Pneumonia deaths right now).  That percentage is going up currently as well...it's not staying at 160% of normal or predicted deaths based on decades of data previously.  Those deaths are NOT those that are counted as being caused by Covid 19 already.  The COVID deaths are in a different category.  That 160% higher than normal are from deaths that are NOT attributed to anything other (so no COVID-19 in the paperwork at all, these are not counted as COVID-19 deaths) than Pneumonia.  As I said, the research on WHAT is causing it is not currently done (and so any claiming it is from Covid are actually not completely honest, it's just that they don't know what else COULD be causing such an alarming rise in the number of Pneumonia deaths) and so they only know that there is something bad causing such a drastic jump in these numbers.

On the bright side...the US is still #1 in something...#1 in Coronavirus infections, #1 for Coronavirus deaths...etc.  Not sure that's a good #1 to have though.

I don't think Cuomo's response was all that great and in fact, when compared to most in the world he actually did really badly.  It's just that people throughout the world and many of the states are looking and comparing Cuomo's response to some of the other US leaders and finding Cuomo actually had better leadership in comparison.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

On the bright side...the US is still #1 in something...#1 in Coronavirus infections, #1 for Coronavirus deaths...etc.  Not sure that's a good #1 to have though.

 

Apparently you missed the memo, or maybe you've just been reading bad news.  We have the greatest number of confirmed infections and deaths, because we have the greatest number of administered tests.    

The Trouble With Testing Part 1 — “No Responsibility at All ...

 

 

You have to look at per capita rates to have any sort of meaningful comparison.

Coronavirus cases per capita chart: Switzerland, Spain, Italy rank ...

 

 

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Estimates of normal Pneumonia deaths and predictions based on data and science going back for 70 years show that something is causing ~160% MORE deaths from Pneumonia in the US this year thus far at this point (which is one reason MANY are saying the number of Covid Deaths are being under-reported, because they do not see any other thing that could cause such a drastic anomaly...a 5% deviation may be considered something else...but 160%...something is going on, and if not Covid we have something VERY serious going on behind the scenes we are not even aware of to cause that big of a jump in Pneumonia deaths right now).  That percentage is going up currently as well...it's not staying at 160% of normal or predicted deaths based on decades of data previously.  Those deaths are NOT those that are counted as being caused by Covid 19 already.  The COVID deaths are in a different category. 

It depends on how the raw data is analyzed.  Over 90% of the COVID-19 death are among populations that have chronic health issues.  Among the chronic health issues listed are - high blood pressure (heart decease), strokes, diabetes and obesity (not to name all).  By including this with the overall data and we have had a decrease in overall deaths in the USA for all such causes so far this year - including all the deaths from COVID-19.  The transparency you think you are getting is anything but.  However, it is not so much miss information coming out of most states as it is from the CDC that is obviously trying to stack the deck - the question we all should ask is - WHY?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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41 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It depends on how the raw data is analyzed.  Over 90% of the COVID-19 death are among populations that have chronic health issues.  Among the chronic health issues listed are - high blood pressure (heart decease), strokes, diabetes and obesity (not to name all). 

In other words:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/29/us_covid-19_death_toll_is_inflated.html

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

It depends on how the raw data is analyzed.  Over 90% of the COVID-19 death are among populations that have chronic health issues.  Among the chronic health issues listed are - high blood pressure (heart decease), strokes, diabetes and obesity (not to name all).  By including this with the overall data and we have had a decrease in overall deaths in the USA for all such causes so far this year - including all the deaths from COVID-19.  The transparency you think you are getting is anything but.  However, it is not so much miss information coming out of most states as it is from the CDC that is obviously trying to stack the deck - the question we all should ask is - WHY?

 

The Traveler

Were those 90% killed by their underlying conditions, or did those conditions weaken their ability to overcome the virus? If it's the latter, then they were killed by COVID-19. 

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9 minutes ago, Godless said:

Were those 90% killed by their underlying conditions, or did those conditions weaken their ability to overcome the virus? If it's the latter, then they were killed by COVID-19. 

That is certainly the way we'd hope that the data would be analyzed.  But the problem is that they are all 100% counted as COVID deaths in all the statistics we've been given.

FACT: At least SOME of the deaths were PRIMARILY due to COVID.

FACT: At least SOME of the deaths were PRIMARILY other causes.

FACT: Some of them were a combination of causes that all contributed at a significant level.

FACT: We will never know what percentage goes into which of these three categories because it was never recorded.  But we can be confident in knowing that the COVID reported statistics we're hearing are very inflated.  How much?  We don't know and we'll never know.

My mother had COVID.  Even though she was very old, she recovered rather quickly.  She died of a heart attack a couple weeks later.  She was counted as a COVID death.  Why?  Not because the doctor wrote it on the death certificate.  Nope, that said "heart attack."  But some schmuck gathering statistics on COVID only asked one question: Did she test positive for COVID.  Yes.  So, he wrote it down. Nevermind that she had it WEEKS PRIOR.

Edited by Carborendum

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56 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

My mother had COVID.  Even though she was very old, she recovered rather quickly.  She died of a heart attack a couple weeks later.  She was counted as a COVID death.  Why?  Not because the doctor wrote it on the death certificate.  Nope, that said "heart attack."  But some schmuck gathering statistics on COVID only asked one question: Did she test positive for COVID.  Yes.  So, he wrote it down. Nevermind that she had it WEEKS PRIOR.

Wait... this is your own mother?  Condolences, Carb.  We just passed the 7th anniversary of my father's death.  I still pine for him like he passed yesterday.

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27 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Wait... this is your own mother?  Condolences, Carb.  We just passed the 7th anniversary of my father's death.  I still pine for him like he passed yesterday.

Thank you.

Yes.  I mentioned it before in the "slow return to normal" thread.

Edited by Carborendum

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12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Thank you.

Yes.  I mentioned it before in the "slow return to normal" thread.

I missed it, too. You have my sincerest condolences.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

I missed it, too. You have my sincerest condolences.

Same. Sorry for your loss @Carborendum

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Thank you.

Yes.  I mentioned it before in the "slow return to normal" thread.

Well, it's actually possible that COVID was the cause of death.

More and more data is coming out that this is a blood disorder; it causes micro-thrombosis in the veins.  The lungs don't fill up with fluid; the tiny blood vessels are blocked and people have low oxygen b/c of it. 

We also don't know the long-term effects of COVID-it is highly likely that you mother might have "recovered" but not really have recovered from the damage it did to blood system. It's why so many young people have just "dropped dead" at home with no emergency calls. Heart attack from blockages caused by COVID.

Edited by BobMaster

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That is certainly the way we'd hope that the data would be analyzed.  But the problem is that they are all 100% counted as COVID deaths in all the statistics we've been given.

FACT: At least SOME of the deaths were PRIMARILY due to COVID.

FACT: At least SOME of the deaths were PRIMARILY other causes.

FACT: Some of them were a combination of causes that all contributed at a significant level.

FACT: We will never know what percentage goes into which of these three categories because it was never recorded.  But we can be confident in knowing that the COVID reported statistics we're hearing are very inflated.  How much?  We don't know and we'll never know.

My mother had COVID.  Even though she was very old, she recovered rather quickly.  She died of a heart attack a couple weeks later.  She was counted as a COVID death.  Why?  Not because the doctor wrote it on the death certificate.  Nope, that said "heart attack."  But some schmuck gathering statistics on COVID only asked one question: Did she test positive for COVID.  Yes.  So, he wrote it down. Nevermind that she had it WEEKS PRIOR.

I'm very sorry for your loss. And thank you for your insight on the reporting. It's horrible that you have first-hand experience with it. 

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

It depends on how the raw data is analyzed.  Over 90% of the COVID-19 death are among populations that have chronic health issues.  Among the chronic health issues listed are - high blood pressure (heart decease), strokes, diabetes and obesity (not to name all).  By including this with the overall data and we have had a decrease in overall deaths in the USA for all such causes so far this year - including all the deaths from COVID-19.  The transparency you think you are getting is anything but.  However, it is not so much miss information coming out of most states as it is from the CDC that is obviously trying to stack the deck - the question we all should ask is - WHY?

 

The Traveler

What are your sources for this.  It's not the CDC, nor the FDIC, or the WHO, nor John Hopkins...nor from any of my research centers.  They tend to all agree with what I've posted.  What research center are you using for your information...or is it Fox News?

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

That is certainly the way we'd hope that the data would be analyzed.  But the problem is that they are all 100% counted as COVID deaths in all the statistics we've been given.

FACT: At least SOME of the deaths were PRIMARILY due to COVID.

FACT: At least SOME of the deaths were PRIMARILY other causes.

FACT: Some of them were a combination of causes that all contributed at a significant level.

FACT: We will never know what percentage goes into which of these three categories because it was never recorded.  But we can be confident in knowing that the COVID reported statistics we're hearing are very inflated.  How much?  We don't know and we'll never know.

My mother had COVID.  Even though she was very old, she recovered rather quickly.  She died of a heart attack a couple weeks later.  She was counted as a COVID death.  Why?  Not because the doctor wrote it on the death certificate.  Nope, that said "heart attack."  But some schmuck gathering statistics on COVID only asked one question: Did she test positive for COVID.  Yes.  So, he wrote it down. Nevermind that she had it WEEKS PRIOR.

That's not how it works. My daughter is currently working in gathering the statistics on COVID infections and deaths.  They are taking whatever the Medical Examiners are stating it is in most states, others are dismissing these and not accepting the reports from medical examiners and hospitals...in states such as Florida they do not know WHERE these numbers are coming from because they are not using the actual numbers the medical field is giving them.

They ARE recording some deaths as COVID when they suffer from heart attacks and such, especially if they are in the COVID wards.  You stated this was after she recovered and that the doctor listed it otherwise.  It would have had to been a retro numbers as they've learned of the inflammation that hits a few weeks after other symptoms.  That would have happened a while AFTER her death was recorded initially, perhaps by several weeks.  It has made them try to consider if prior deaths may have actually been caused by the virus.

If this was what happened immediately (instead of added a while after), it was probably not the Health district, but some local in the actual doctor's office.  Such actions probably should be reported to the Health District as that could be seen as a violation of reporting standards.  Such violations make it harder for researchers and scientist to make accurate conclusions.  If your health district is the one actually doing this, then you should report it to the Federal Authorities as currently they are taking these pretty seriously and can lead to Federal criminal investigations into fraud and other terrible items.  As most states know about this, they are not that likely to over report in that manner, but if you think Texas is doing this (and everything I've heard coming out of Texas indicates they are NOT doing this) you should report it to the Feds if nothing else.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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1 hour ago, BobMaster said:

Well, it's actually possible that COVID was the cause of death.

More and more data is coming out that this is a blood disorder; it causes micro-thrombosis in the veins.  The lungs don't fill up with fluid; the tiny blood vessels are blocked and people have low oxygen b/c of it. 

We also don't know the long-term effects of COVID-it is highly likely that you mother might have "recovered" but not really have recovered from the damage it did to blood system. It's why so many young people have just "dropped dead" at home with no emergency calls. Heart attack from blockages caused by COVID.

Regarding the young people... (clarification...young people with MIS-C)

So far, we've been lucky and it has not affected many youth (though enough to be worrying).  Similar to how big the protests were against the stay at home orders (several thousand out of millions of citizens) which were actually quite small, but seemed to be occurring in large amounts due to media attention, currently the same is occurring for the children and youth that are getting MIS (multi-inflammatory syndrome). 

They suspect that inflammation is causing a lot more damage than previously thought, and this effect is starting to show up in children that have the anti-bodies of Covid 19 in larger numbers which is changing the thought process in how immune to symptoms children are regarding catching the virus.  Thus far it is still rare...but alarming. 

Some think that it may be related to specific strains of Covid-19, but it is still very early in the game in understanding what exactly is happening with the children and youth along with MIS-C.

The inflammation is why some are going back into the records during the month of May and analyzing earlier cases of things such as heart attacks, strokes, and various other items.  Some are retroactively labeling two causes with one of them being listed as Covid-19.   In these instances I have not heard of them doing it soon after death as most of them have been a retroactive item thus far from what I understand...unless they die while in the Covid Wards of the hospitals (in which case, every case I know is normally attributed to Covid-19 whether it really was or was not).  This has also led them to believe the virus was possibly in the US far earlier than previously assumed.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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55 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

What are your sources for this.  It's not the CDC, nor the FDIC, or the WHO, nor John Hopkins...nor from any of my research centers.  They tend to all agree with what I've posted.  What research center are you using for your information...or is it Fox News?

My wife has been doing most of the research.  She has been using the data published by the CDC.  They do not give month by month data - just by the year.  But we have been dealing with COVID-19 for at least a quarter of this year.  So if you divide the stats by 4 you will get an idea of how many death for about the same time.  However, the CDC is not publishing any data for any other deaths other than COVID-19.  My wife has been tracking the COVID-19 deaths recorded in Utah - which is used by the CDC and we are able to track that with the data from John Hopkins.   There is less than 1% difference in the overall data reported.  The problem is that no one is reporting anything other than the COVID-19 deaths for this year.  But a raw comparison of deaths and we have fewer deaths this year.  But we are told that well over 90% of the COVID-19 deaths in the USA have chronic health issues.  In Utah it is slightly over 98%.   From what data I was able to get - if the recovery rate from chronic health problems is 50% then we are at the break even point.

But there is another problem - states are able to petition the federal government for COVID-19 deaths, treatments, testing and hospitalization but not a dime for any other health issues.  The only data to decipher this comes from cause of death signed by attending physicians.  In short, there is strong incentive to gain additional funds by ascribing death to COVID-19 and there are zero validation checks.  Insurance companies are saying that deaths are down this year for other causes but by how much or by what % is never stated.

Then there are articles for phenomena and respiratory infections to be compared directly to COVID-19 and that is where you are getting the high increases - but this leaves out the fact that it is also reported that over 90% of the COVID-19 deaths are individuals with underlying and non related chronic health problems.  The bottom line is that we are being given a lot of stats with exorbitant incentives to play with the numbers - and no one is publishing the raw data.  From the data given we do not know for sure because we do not have access to the raw data.  From the data we are given - I see no proof that COVID-19 is that big of a deal.

But there is another little stat that is interesting.  Hospitals maximize their profits by being full.  It is like the Airlines.  Hospitals want every bed filled just like airlines want ever seat filled.  Not a single hospital in the USA has had to turn away any patients because of COVID-19.  However, if you look at the care required by workers - you will find that per bed COVID-19 will stress hospital workers more than other conditions.  It is being reported that fewer people are going to the hospital for standard conditions - but again there is no raw data.

In general I do not trust government institutions that have incentive to deceive us that is why I said that it all depends on how the raw data is interpreted.

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Godless said:

Were those 90% killed by their underlying conditions, or did those conditions weaken their ability to overcome the virus? If it's the latter, then they were killed by COVID-19. 

Since the overwhelming majority of individuals known to show positive to COVID-19 never show symptoms - I am inclined to think that most deaths would have occurred if the patient did not have COVID-19.   In other words COVID-19 hardly does much at all by itself.  When the term "chronic" is used to describe someone's condition - that is not good.    What I am saying is that if I had to choose between COVID-19 and chronic health issues - I would choose COVID-19 in a heart beat - pun intended.  And I am in my mid 70's

 

The Traveler

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"With" vs. "From".

Colorado was reporting "Deaths with COVID" until two weeks ago, when they started reporting both those numbers, and "Deaths from COVID".  You can see where I modified my chart to see the difference.

image.png.f3aa5626f4a7cc05ee15827ec2fa675b.png

Edited by NeuroTypical

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