Plein Air

Push for Utah to mandate statewide mask wearing

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12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Oh, amen to that! 

Now you're just being obnoxious on purpose.  Trolling really doesn't have a place in honest debate.  If you say the answer to my question is in those links, then please quote it.  I can't find it.

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4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Now you're just being obnoxious on purpose.  Trolling really doesn't have a place in honest debate.  If you say the answer to my question is in those links, then please quote it.  I can't find it.

Relax @Grunt. It wasn't trolling. Settle down. 

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20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Relax @Grunt. It wasn't trolling. Settle down. 

Of course you are.  If you weren't just trolling, you'd answer my question or stop responding all together.  Instead, you say things like "settle down" intending to elicit a response.  You're trolling.  

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5 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Of course you are.  If you weren't just trolling, you'd answer my question or stop responding all together.  Instead, you say things like "settle down" intending to elicit a response.  You're trolling.  

Okay @Grunt. You seriously need to lighten up.
 

No, it was not “trolling”. To be honest, I find it “disappointing” that you are being intellectually dishonest by not reading the links I sent, so we’re both disappointed. But, I didn’t want to come out and say it. If anyone is “trolling” it’s you with your pugnacious attitude and snotty, finger waving demeanor. 

 

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10 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Okay @Grunt. You seriously need to lighten up.
 

No, it was not “trolling”. To be honest, I find it “disappointing” that you are being intellectually dishonest by not reading the links I sent, so we’re both disappointed. But, I didn’t want to come out and say it. If anyone is “trolling” it’s you with your pugnacious attitude and snotty, finger waving demeanor. 

 

I just said I read them and didn't see an answer to the question I asked. Just as I assumed, it was a waste of my time.  I don't think YOU even read them.   I'm now asking you to quote what you think answers my question.  You're trolling.

Edited by Grunt

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14 hours ago, Scott said:

I'm just asking since I am curious about your opinion.

Would it ever be a valid reason if the death rate was higher?   

No.

What's the difference between 200,000 deaths and 200,001 deaths?  None.

"Give me liberty or give me death" - someone famous.

"Those who give up liberty for safety will have neither liberty nor safety" - another someone famous.

"“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - another one also famous.

Edited by anatess2

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11 hours ago, MormonGator said:

https://www.nfid.org/infectious-diseases/frequently-asked-questions-about-novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov/
Are individuals contagious before they develop symptoms?

There is evidence that the novel coronavirus can be spread before an individual develops symptoms. This poses a problem because people who do not know they are infected may continue to go to work, school, and other public places. People who are sick and have symptoms are more likely to stay home, which means fewer opportunities for the virus to spread from one person to another. When asymptomatic transmission occurs, infection control experts and public health officials may need to take additional measures, such as social distancing, isolating patients, or using quarantines.

 

That's OLD NEWS.

WHO came out with an update from contact tracing data.

And no, this is not an endorsement of government-imposed contact tracing.

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Charity, folks.

People get to say stuff, even if you think it's misguided, dangerous, or deadly.

People get to say stuff, even if you think it's misguided, dangerous, or facist.

The mods are inches away from closing mask threads, if'n y'all can't remember site rules 3 & 4.

Quote

3. Personal attacks, name calling, flaming, and judgments against other members will not be tolerated.

4. No bickering and nit-picking toward others. Realize that sometimes it is very difficult to be able to express how one feels through written words. Please be courteous and ask for a further explanation, rather then trying to attack and find holes in someone else's post.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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14 hours ago, Grunt said:

How?

To go back a bit, a one word question is easy to misunderstand.  To clear it up, you are asking how asymptomatic people can spread the virus.  Is that correct?

While that question of how the virus spreads doesn't seem to be specifically addressed in those articles, I imagine it's the same way symptomatic people do, through exhaled droplets that are then inhaled or otherwise brought into contact by another person.

Another thing to keep in mind is that asymptomatic is different from pre-symptomatic.  A person who has contracted Covid can be contagious days before they show symptoms.

Quote

...cases of presymptomatic transmission have been reported from other countries before widespread community transmission occurred. A report from Germany documented infection of a German businessman after exposure to a mildly symptomatic colleague visiting from China (18). Before becoming symptomatic, this businessman exposed 2 other colleagues who subsequently received a COVID-19 diagnosis but did not have contact with the primary patient from China or any other known source. A report from Singapore described 7 COVID-19 clusters resulting from presymptomatic transmission; presymptomatic primary patients varied from persons with travel from high-incidence countries to persons exposed in the local community (19). All primary patients experienced distinct periods of initial exposure and presymptomatic close contact with secondary patients who had no other known exposure risks.  All primary patients experienced distinct periods of initial exposure and presymptomatic close contact with secondary patients who had no other known exposure risks. The incubation periods for presymptomatic primary patients with distinct exposures ranged from 3 to 11 days; for presymptomatic primary patients with travel history to an area with active transmission, the time from last exposure to symptom onset ranged from >2 to >9 days.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

 

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2 minutes ago, dprh said:

To go back a bit, a one word question is easy to misunderstand.  To clear it up, you are asking how asymptomatic people can spread the virus.  Is that correct?

While that question of how the virus spreads doesn't seem to be specifically addressed in those articles, I imagine it's the same way symptomatic people do, through exhaled droplets that are then inhaled or otherwise brought into contact by another person.

Another thing to keep in mind is that asymptomatic is different from pre-symptomatic.  A person who has contracted Covid can be contagious days before they show symptoms.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

 

Essentially, that article alludes that they don't know how they were transmitted.  Assuming your stated method of infection is exhaled droplets that are inhaled by others then even if an asymptomatic person were exhaling the virus, it's traveling less than 3 feet.  You aren't being infected by casual contact with asymptomatic people unless you're in their face breathing as they exhale.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17542834/

 

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Shoulda worn that mask...

😂

Good one!

 

Check out my new response when someone wants to talk about COVID / Riots / Moral Decay - "Sorry, I am not really in the mood to talk about that this year. Let's try again next year."

Edited by Plein Air

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I was busy over the past few days, and this thread exploded.  Mormongater is a guest now?  Hopefully that's a glitch.

What it SOUNDS like some in this thread have been stating...

If Church leaders ask members (or recommend they do something...like...let's say food storage) many will refuse to do so, even if some of the recommendations might be from the prophet himself.

Or that's what it sounds like I'm hearing in this thread.

I mention this because the last time I was in the thread, this was the thing under discussion...

Utah area presidency urges all Latter-day Saints in the State to wear masks in public

This wasn't a request to wear them in the privacy of one's own home or among their own families in their house, but when in public. 

Furthermore, it was specifically talking about members who refuse to wear masks to church meetings in Utah...which apparently people ALSO support?  Not only against what local authorities (or those over the State of Utah) had requested, but also the First Presidency?

Am I actually hearing people say these things in this forum?

The directives...

First Presidency provides directives on safe return to church meetings and activities

One section which states...

Quote

Follow social distancing, handwashing and other practices described in “Preventative Measures for Members.”

Following that link leads to

Coronavirus update preventative measures

Which currently states (I am quoting the current page on this)

Quote

Preventative Measures for Members*

  • Regularly and thoroughly wash your hands with soap and water or clean them with an alcohol-based hand rub.
  • Avoid close contact with people who are sick (this may include avoiding shaking hands or other customary greetings).
  • Avoid touching your eyes, nose and mouth.
  • Stay home when you are sick.
  • Cover your cough or sneeze with a tissue, then throw the tissue in the trash.
  • Maintain at least six feet (two meters) distance between yourself and anyone who is coughing or sneezing.
  • Clean and disinfect frequently touched objects and surfaces using a regular household cleaning spray or wipe.
  • Follow public health agency recommendations for using a face mask.

    *Based on recommendations from the World Health Organization and the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

    Local leaders should encourage members to follow these guidelines.

Public health agency recommendations (it is NOT a mandate everywhere, but recommended currently in Utah I believe, as it is in several other states as well, and the preventative measures say recommendations) currently recommend wearing face masks.

Whether one agrees with the idea or not, church directives like this becoming political could seem to be largely disturbing.  Why is there a reason for this to become political within the church?

The question that was being posed several pages back was whether someone not wearing a mask at church was sending a message that others who did not feel safe should not visit the church or was stopping others from visiting the church.

I am of two minds of that, but the real question I saw there is whether one is going to follow the recommendations of the Local Church Leaders in Utah and the First Presidency when attending Church meetings or not.

Politically I can see why some people may be against wearing masks in the US (which confounds most of the rest of the Civilized world, but the US is different than the rest of the world in several factors, in particular with some ideas and ideals in regards to freedom, Constitutionalism in regards to the US constitution, and rights), but this thread had turned to something else a couple pages back.

At that point i was more in more disbelief in that it seemed (or appears at least) that people were actively not listening to their church leaders, and people are actually advocating for people to disobey Church leaders based upon political beliefs!!

Why is this okay?

If this was not one's intent (Because that's what it seems the thread devolved to the past two days I was gone), what exactly is the intent people are pushing in response to the question that was asked several pages back?

I could postulate that this could be a discussion of how to know when Church leaders are talking as men vs. the Prophet, but no one in the thread actually seems to have followed that line of reasoning, and it's more about personal or individual choices of freedoms (no mention of being led by the spirit by most) rather than commenting on following directives of the Church. (edit: and more specifically in this regards, to those who refuse to wear masks to Church meetings in Utah).

Edited by JohnsonJones

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

If this was not one's intent (Because that's what it seems the thread devolved to the past two days I was gone), what exactly is the intent people are pushing in response to the question that was asked several pages back?

 

I haven't seen anyone stating people shouldn't follow the Church.  I saw people stating that forcing healthy people wearing masks didn't make a lot of sense.

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8 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I haven't seen anyone stating people shouldn't follow the Church.  I saw people stating that forcing healthy people wearing masks didn't make a lot of sense.

The question was raised (now several pages ago) and the responses where to the effect that it was a personal freedom issue (I don't think you jumped into it until one or two pages after that?, at least from my reading of the thread today).  It was kind of shocking to me that in response to someone asking about people flagrantly not wearing masks at church (or in response to the Utah Church leaders requests) people instead chose to focus more on the political aspects rather than the question itself.  It gives the blatant appearance of defiance to Church recommendations and policies (to me it has, at least).

NOW, (I'm not sure if it was this thread or another similar) I have raised the thought that in some aspects it may boil down to personal revelation and whether leaders are talking as leaders or individuals, but the conversation didn't follow that avenue (and that avenue has some problems already in and of itself, but as it has been brought up by Church leaders in the past already, and is currently an item of discussion on the church site today, I can see it as being somewhat acceptable).  Instead, it seemed to be advocating blatant disobedience...which certainly has puzzled me on my return (I think I was last here on Monday, it's only Thursday today!).

This should not be a political thing in regards to Utah.  It should be a matter of whether one accepts the recommendations of their Church Authorities and the First Presidency or not.  In the instance that they do not accept it, what is the reasoning behind it? 

Thus far it seems all political too me, and a political reason behind disobeying church recommendations does not seem to be a good reason (at least in my opinion).  There should be something more to one's reason along the lines of spiritual or revelation rather than a political belief against it.

This would apply to much many in the United States as well as the recommendations in many states are to wear masks currently, which should also apply to those attending Sacrament meetings in the Chapel.  Why this would be controversial is beyond me.  I'm not talking about in one's own home, but simply what is found on the Church's site in it's recommendations regarding Church meetings.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The question was raised (now several pages ago) and the responses where to the effect that it was a personal freedom issue (I don't think you jumped into it until one or two pages after that?, at least from my reading of the thread today).  It was kind of shocking to me that in response to someone asking about people flagrantly not wearing masks at church (or in response to the Utah Church leaders requests) people instead chose to focus more on the political aspects rather than the question itself.  It gives the blatant appearance of defiance to Church recommendations and policies (to me it has, at least).

NOW, (I'm not sure if it was this thread or another similar) I have raised the thought that in some aspects it may boil down to personal revelation and whether leaders are talking as leaders or individuals, but the conversation didn't follow that avenue (and that avenue has some problems already in and of itself, but as it has been brought up by Church leaders in the past already, and is currently an item of discussion on the church site today, I can see it as being somewhat acceptable).  Instead, it seemed to be advocating blatant disobedience...which certainly has puzzled me on my return (I think I was last here on Monday, it's only Thursday today!).

This should not be a political thing in regards to Utah.  It should be a matter of whether one accepts the recommendations of their Church Authorities and the First Presidency or not.  In the instance that they do not accept it, what is the reasoning behind it? 

Thus far it seems all political too me, and a political reason behind disobeying church recommendations does not seem to be a good reason (at least in my opinion).  There should be something more to one's reason along the lines of spiritual or revelation rather than a political belief against it.

This would apply to much many in the United States as well as the recommendations in many states are to wear masks currently, which should also apply to those attending Sacrament meetings in the Chapel.  Why this would be controversial is beyond me.  I'm not talking about in one's own home, but simply what is found on the Church's site in it's recommendations regarding Church meetings.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I follow the Prophet.  I hope nothing I've posted suggests otherwise.  Even though our Stake said it is requested, not required, that we wear masks to Church, I'd wear one.  My personal thoughts on the topic, while contrary, are irrelevant.

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Just now, Grunt said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I follow the Prophet.  I hope nothing I've posted suggests otherwise.  Even though our Stake said it is requested, not required, that we wear masks to Church, I'd wear one.  My personal thoughts on the topic, while contrary, are irrelevant.

This I can understand.  For an individual like me, our area has said that those in high risk categories currently continue sacrament at home and avoid going to Church.  I'm still torn somewhat in regards to go to church or not, but the local (stake level) guidance is that for us in high risk categories to avoid coming (as well as those who may feel sick or ill to stay home also) when meetings resume soon.  If did go, I would probably wear a mask though in our area it is not a requirement.  I'm not in Utah though.

We've had some support of Church members during this time with at least one visit a month from a member.  I have found the Gospel Library to be one of the best and most important things for me during this time period.  I had help getting it up and running (from these very forums some time ago) and recently I've found myself using it a LOT in reading articles and other items on it during the past few months.  I think for those who do not have priesthood holders at their homes, and many who may not have as much contact with members that this time period may have been extremely hard on them.  I can see how it may have been very difficult for people staying at home from Church.  At the same time, I can see the wisdom of the church guidance, though I can also understand why some may have difficulties in that as well.

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This thread is now closed.  Any future threads regarding masks will be closed down immediately.

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This topic is now closed to further replies.