Blessings

[Traveler]

I would explorer the principle of receiving blessings.  We are told in the Doctrine and Convenance that the only way to receive a blessing is by obedience to the principles upon which that blessing is predicated.   I have discovered a few corollaries to this declaration from the D&C.  First is that disobedience to the principles upon which a blessing is predicated results in the loss of that blessing.

It is my experience that a lost blessing is exactly that – a blessing lost.  Regardless of what I may think I can do, my experience is exactly that a lost blessing is a blessing lost.  Try as I may and for all my searching, studies and experiments; I have never been able to go back in time and have a do over to erase the disobedience and insert obedience and gain a lost blessing. 

Some have argued to me that repentance is possible and that we can be forgiven of our disobedience.  This, I have discovered, to be true.  However, this concept of repentance brings me to a second corollary of obedience.  Which is that we can be obedient to the principles of repentance and receive the blessings of repentance.  But the blessings or blessing of the initial obedience is different from the blessings of repentance and therefore – though the blessings may be similar they are not quite the same blessings.

There are indeed blessings of repentance that can replace much of the blessings that can be lost because of initial disobedience but in all of my experiences – the two are not exactly or quite the same.  The great lesson is, that regardless of all efforts to overcome a lie – and all efforts are indeed commendatory – it is always better (without exception that I have experienced) to have never told the lie in the first place.

Initially there may seem to be one exception and perhaps it is a legitimate exception and that is when dealing with someone sorrowful for telling a lie we can provide comfort from our experience of telling a lie and receiving comfort for repentance.  It does seem that such experience does help and is of great value – I am conflicted though of any value in deliberately telling a lie that we can then engineer the comfort we may give to others.  That there is indeed value in repentance but always it is better to have not been disobedient in the first place.

I have heard others speak of life as though there are chances of things that if not realized in the way they occurred – would be presented at another time and things would somehow work out.   I am of the mind that life unfolds in such a manner that blessings lost are exactly that – lost blessings.  We may be able to recover from lost blessings and obtain new blessings – which is why repentance is both critical and important but we should never assume that a chance lost to obtain a blessing is the most desired possibility.

The most desired blessing and the blessing of greatest value that I have experienced in my lifetime is the blessing that has come through the blessed wife I have married.  I am convinced that this blessing is not the result of a single obedience but a process of obedience (including the law of chastity) over many experiences and trials.  I do not want to infer that repentance of many things have not been part of this great blessing of much value – but I am convince that a lifetime of chastity of us both has resulted in blessings that cannot be obtained by any other means.

I expressed in another place that many things were altered in my life (and also in my wife’s) that if even one did not occur that it would have been impossible for the two of us to come together as we did.  It may be argued that there may have been another way – which no one can prove or disprove, but I have never been spiritually nor logically impressed that such is the case.  I am convinced that what happened concerning the two of us was exactly what was intended to be – perhaps even before either of us were born.  I can say with all truth as I understand and believe that I loved my wife and prepared for her long before we met during our mortal journey of experiences in faith and that G-d assisted us and prepared us – from perhaps even before we were born.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

I would explorer the principle of receiving blessings.  We are told in the Doctrine and Convenance that the only way to receive a blessing is by obedience to the principles upon which that blessing is predicated.   I have discovered a few corollaries to this declaration from the D&C.  First is that disobedience to the principles upon which a blessing is predicated results in the loss of that blessing.

It is my experience that a lost blessing is exactly that – a blessing lost.  Regardless of what I may think I can do, my experience is exactly that a lost blessing is a blessing lost.  Try as I may and for all my searching, studies and experiments; I have never been able to go back in time and have a do over to erase the disobedience and insert obedience and gain a lost blessing. 

Some have argued to me that repentance is possible and that we can be forgiven of our disobedience.  This, I have discovered, to be true.  However, this concept of repentance brings me to a second corollary of obedience.  Which is that we can be obedient to the principles of repentance and receive the blessings of repentance.  But the blessings or blessing of the initial obedience is different from the blessings of repentance and therefore – though the blessings may be similar they are not quite the same blessings.

There are indeed blessings of repentance that can replace much of the blessings that can be lost because of initial disobedience but in all of my experiences – the two are not exactly or quite the same.  The great lesson is, that regardless of all efforts to overcome a lie – and all efforts are indeed commendatory – it is always better (without exception that I have experienced) to have never told the lie in the first place.

Initially there may seem to be one exception and perhaps it is a legitimate exception and that is when dealing with someone sorrowful for telling a lie we can provide comfort from our experience of telling a lie and receiving comfort for repentance.  It does seem that such experience does help and is of great value – I am conflicted though of any value in deliberately telling a lie that we can then engineer the comfort we may give to others.  That there is indeed value in repentance but always it is better to have not been disobedient in the first place.

I have heard others speak of life as though there are chances of things that if not realized in the way they occurred – would be presented at another time and things would somehow work out.   I am of the mind that life unfolds in such a manner that blessings lost are exactly that – lost blessings.  We may be able to recover from lost blessings and obtain new blessings – which is why repentance is both critical and important but we should never assume that a chance lost to obtain a blessing is the most desired possibility.

The most desired blessing and the blessing of greatest value that I have experienced in my lifetime is the blessing that has come through the blessed wife I have married.  I am convinced that this blessing is not the result of a single obedience but a process of obedience (including the law of chastity) over many experiences and trials.  I do not want to infer that repentance of many things have not been part of this great blessing of much value – but I am convince that a lifetime of chastity of us both has resulted in blessings that cannot be obtained by any other means.

I expressed in another place that many things were altered in my life (and also in my wife’s) that if even one did not occur that it would have been impossible for the two of us to come together as we did.  It may be argued that there may have been another way – which no one can prove or disprove, but I have never been spiritually nor logically impressed that such is the case.  I am convinced that what happened concerning the two of us was exactly what was intended to be – perhaps even before either of us were born.  I can say with all truth as I understand and believe that I loved my wife and prepared for her long before we met during our mortal journey of experiences in faith and that G-d assisted us and prepared us – from perhaps even before we were born.

 

The Traveler

In thinking about your comments, obviously the loss of blessings in time occurs, for example, if through sin I lose the peace of the gospel, when I repent the peace will be restored but I can't go back and have peace restored to that period of time.

There is also a potential loss of relationship oriented blessings because we are not omniscient or perfect in forgiveness. If for example I say something unkind and lose the blessing of someone's friendship, though the Lord may forgive me because I sufficiently repent, that person may not be so inclined. But I would imagine that in the next life such relationships would be healed, so again it's a loss of blessings in time.

So is this the loss you are referring to or do you think the loss of blessings extends to a loss of blessings for all time?

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

In thinking about your comments, obviously the loss of blessings in time occurs, for example, if through sin I lose the peace of the gospel, when I repent the peace will be restored but I can't go back and have peace restored to that period of time.

There is also a potential loss of relationship oriented blessings because we are not omniscient or perfect in forgiveness. If for example I say something unkind and lose the blessing of someone's friendship, though the Lord may forgive me because I sufficiently repent, that person may not be so inclined. But I would imagine that in the next life such relationships would be healed, so again it's a loss of blessings in time.

So is this the loss you are referring to or do you think the loss of blessings extends to a loss of blessings for all time?

Thank you for your interest and question.  I will speak to my experience.  It would seem that lost blessings are indeed lost.  But we do not need to be overly discouraged.  There are blessing that come from repentance.  I have many examples of lost blessing in my life and many examples of blessings from repentance.

One time I was with my family when my children were young.  The spirit strongly gave me the impression to tell my wife to pick up her purse that was beside her.  I did not reply the that spiritual prompting.  Second later a person grabbed her purse and ran away with it.  This was long ago before more modern reliance of electronics.  There were a couple of check books in her purse.  There were thousands of dollars lost at a time of our lives when pennies were important and there were problems for years.  It was literally a hefty price to pay (for my family) for what seemed such a minor sin of doubt and disobedience on my part. 

Another example:  Some years ago, our Prophet asked all members to read the Book of Mormon before the end of the year with the promise of great blessings if we did so.  My wife and I decided to read together.  Over time it became difficult (seeming impossible) for us to read together.  I finished on my own, but my wife did not finish.  It was this particular experience that has convinced me that lost blessings are indeed lost.  I should have been more observant of our reading together.  There were blessing for my reading, but the blessings were mixed.  For some time, I blamed my wife for her not completing the reading.  In reality the fault was mine for pride and not making a greater effort.  It was the wrestling with this repentance that I have received the spiritual impressions that lost blessings are indeed lost and cannot be restored in this life – but that it is not good to dwell on such lost blessings – rather we should repent and rejoice in the blessings of repentance.

My impressions is that it is always best to be obedient than to later repent – and yet we should never put of repentance because of lost blessings.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

7 hours ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for your interest and question.  I will speak to my experience.  It would seem that lost blessings are indeed lost.  But we do not need to be overly discouraged.  There are blessing that come from repentance.  I have many examples of lost blessing in my life and many examples of blessings from repentance.

One time I was with my family when my children were young.  The spirit strongly gave me the impression to tell my wife to pick up her purse that was beside her.  I did not reply the that spiritual prompting.  Second later a person grabbed her purse and ran away with it.  This was long ago before more modern reliance of electronics.  There were a couple of check books in her purse.  There were thousands of dollars lost at a time of our lives when pennies were important and there were problems for years.  It was literally a hefty price to pay (for my family) for what seemed such a minor sin of doubt and disobedience on my part. 

Another example:  Some years ago, our Prophet asked all members to read the Book of Mormon before the end of the year with the promise of great blessings if we did so.  My wife and I decided to read together.  Over time it became difficult (seeming impossible) for us to read together.  I finished on my own, but my wife did not finish.  It was this particular experience that has convinced me that lost blessings are indeed lost.  I should have been more observant of our reading together.  There were blessing for my reading, but the blessings were mixed.  For some time, I blamed my wife for her not completing the reading.  In reality the fault was mine for pride and not making a greater effort.  It was the wrestling with this repentance that I have received the spiritual impressions that lost blessings are indeed lost and cannot be restored in this life – but that it is not good to dwell on such lost blessings – rather we should repent and rejoice in the blessings of repentance.

My impressions is that it is always best to be obedient than to later repent – and yet we should never put of repentance because of lost blessings.

 

The Traveler

I appreciate your comments as I've been dealing with some woulda coulda shoulda feelings that Satan has been hammering me over the head with. It can be kind of a tricky balance extolling the virtues of the atonement without demeaning the value of initial obedience.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

I appreciate your comments as I've been dealing with some woulda coulda shoulda feelings that Satan has been hammering me over the head with. It can be kind of a tricky balance extolling the virtues of the atonement without demeaning the value of initial obedience.

Regardless of what ever has happened - the best possible outcome going forward to to be obedient.  It is interesting to me that the first temple covenant is obedience. 

 

The Traveler

[romans8]

On 3/23/2023 at 12:20 PM, Traveler said:

I would explorer the principle of receiving blessings.  We are told in the Doctrine and Convenance that the only way to receive a blessing is by obedience to the principles upon which that blessing is predicated.

From what I have read in LDS literature, Adam and Eve had to first disobey God's commandment so
that they could receive a blessing in order to obey his other commandment.

[Carborendum]

4 minutes ago, romans8 said:

From what I have read in LDS literature, Adam and Eve had to first disobey God's commandment so
that they could receive a blessing in order to obey his other commandment.

Try again.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

From what I have read in LDS literature, Adam and Eve had to first disobey God's commandment so
that they could receive a blessing in order to obey his other commandment.

Thank you for your question.  If you pay attention, you can discover that how scriptures are interpreted and understood can vary across the gambit of society and even Christianity (including specific sects).   I started this thread based on my experiences.  The epoch of Eden is something I can only comment concerning my individual interpretations and inclinations.

Since you have brought up the subject – I would be interested in your comments specifically concerning your experiences.  Have you personally experienced in your life that sinning has benefited you and your relationship to G-d and your fellow men.  If so or if not so – how do you use your experiences (intelligence) to color your understanding of the Eden epoch?

 

The Traveler

Edited March 25, 2023 by Traveler

[romans8]

On 3/25/2023 at 11:42 AM, Traveler said:

Since you have brought up the subject – I would be interested in your comments specifically concerning your experiences.  Have you personally experienced in your life that sinning has benefited you and your relationship to G-d and your fellow men.  If so or if not so – how do you use your experiences (intelligence) to color your understanding of the Eden epoch?

I have never received a blessing from God for disobeying Him.

I am not sure if I understand the Eden epoch question but let me try to explain with
an example. Suppose my mom told me not to touch the stove or I would get burned
by the heat.  I understood what a stove, heat, and the concept of being burned was.
The devil came to me and said, "Touch the stove and you will not get burned, but you
will be smart like your mom because she knows about heat".

I listen to the devil, touch the stove, and scream. Fortunately it is only a first-degree
burn.  But wow, I really did get a little bit of knowledge about heat like my mom has.

But did mom say, "Great, now I will bless you with giving you some ice-cream because
you know what being burned feels like"?

No. 

[romans8]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:16 AM, Carborendum said:

Try again.

Maybe this helps to explain what I said.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/1998/1/3/23251257/adam-and-eve-had-to-transgress-barrier-between-eden-mortality

The first commandment given to Adam and Eve was, "Be fruitful and multiply." (Moses 2:28; Gen. 1:28; 
see also Abr. 4:28.)

"When Adam and Eve received that commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the 
spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation," 
said Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve at the October 1993 general conference."They 
could not fulfill the Father's first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss 
of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

In simple terms, they could not obey the first commandment until they disobeyed the second commandment.
Thus, in the Fall, Adam and Eve are said to have received great blessings from God.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

But did mom say, "Great, now I will bless you with giving you some ice-cream because
you know what being burned feels like"?

No. 

If she was born more than 30 years ago, she probably said, "I told you not to do that. But come to me and I'll break this aloe plant and apply its healing balm."

[Vort]

5 hours ago, romans8 said:

I have never received a blessing from God for disobeying Him.

I am not sure if I understand the Eden epoch question but let me try to explain with
an example. Suppose my mom told me not to touch the stove or I would get burned
by the heat.  I understood what a stove, heat, and the concept of being burned was.
The devil came to me and said, "Touch the stove and you will not get burned, but you
will be smart like your mom because she knows about heat".

I listen to the devil, touch the stove, and scream. Fortunately it is only a first-degree
burn.  But wow, I really did get a little bit of knowledge about heat like my mom has.

But did mom say, "Great, now I will bless you with giving you some ice-cream because
you know what being burned feels like"?

No. 

I actually agree with this completely, except that it is not parallel to what happened in the garden of Eden.

Consider the following scenario regarding fornication. (DISCLAIMER: Our leaders have taught us in unambiguous terms that the garden of Eden's "forbidden fruit" was not sex. I do not mean to suggest it was. I use this only for a point of comparison.) 

A young man and a young woman are taught chastity and told never to engage in sex outside of marriage. (For this example, we will ignore that Adam and Eve were married, so sex per se would not have been forbidden; again, the "forbidden fruit" was not sex. This is merely an example.) Some outsider explains to the young woman that sex is the only way you can make babies and enlarge your family. (Yes, I know all about adoption. Please try to see my point through the meaningless objections.) She is also told that sex is tremendously intimate and binding to your partner, that it's an indescribably wonderful experience, and that her own parents engaged in sex when they married, which is how they produced her. Armed with this knowledge but not yet having a complete picture of how things work, the young woman tells her boyfriend and convinces him to engage in sex with her. The result is that she is impregnated, and the young man and young woman get married.

Now consider the following questions:

• Was the young woman wrong to hearken to the voice of the person who told her that sex was her key to salvation? Was the young man wrong to hearken to his girlfriend's voice?
• Was the pregnancy and therefore the baby tainted and made less than holy because of the actions of the parents?
• Were the young man and young woman eventually truly married?
• Despite the unfortunate decisions surrounding their act, can they go forward, repenting of their carnality, and find all the joy in life that God intends for them?
• Assuming they do work to build their family and hearken to God's voice, are they forever damned because of their early poor choice?

(My answers are yes and yes, of course not, yes, yes, and no way.)

Whatever was involved in Adam and Eve's fall, it was a necessary step. We may assume based on scriptural accounts that it was done out of order and therefore unapproved of God. We may also conclude with certainty, based on latter-day scripture, that Adam and Eve were forgiven for the garden of Eden transgression*, and furthermore that Eve herself, after being forgiven, rejoiced in the fall she and Adam experienced (if not directly in the action that precipitated the fall) because it allowed them to progress. The fall of Adam, even if accomplished in a suboptimal way, was absolutely central to God's own plan of salvation for his children.

*Many in the Restored Church of Christ, including apostles and other leaders, have opined that in the case of the garden of Eden, "transgression" is not the same as "sin". I find this argument deeply unconvincing, but since they are commissioned of the Lord to teach the kingdom and I am not, I don't spend any time trying to promulgate my own views.

5 hours ago, romans8 said:

Maybe this helps to explain what I said.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/1998/1/3/23251257/adam-and-eve-had-to-transgress-barrier-between-eden-mortality

The first commandment given to Adam and Eve was, "Be fruitful and multiply." (Moses 2:28; Gen. 1:28; 
see also Abr. 4:28.)

"When Adam and Eve received that commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the 
spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation," 
said Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve at the October 1993 general conference." They 
could not fulfill the Father's first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss 
of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

In simple terms, they could not obey the first commandment until they disobeyed the second commandment.
Thus, in the Fall, Adam and Eve are said to have received great blessings from God.

This is the so-called contradicting commandments idea, one which, again, I find deeply unconvincing. Own own scriptures teach that "the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." But again, the kingdom is here with us, and I will not be found fighting against it. One day it will all be clear, and whether I was "right" or "wrong" or "it was something totally different that I never thought of" will be utterly irrelevant.

[Traveler]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:28 AM, romans8 said:

I have never received a blessing from God for disobeying Him.

I am not sure if I understand the Eden epoch question but let me try to explain with
an example. Suppose my mom told me not to touch the stove or I would get burned
by the heat.  I understood what a stove, heat, and the concept of being burned was.
The devil came to me and said, "Touch the stove and you will not get burned, but you
will be smart like your mom because she knows about heat".

I listen to the devil, touch the stove, and scream. Fortunately it is only a first-degree
burn.  But wow, I really did get a little bit of knowledge about heat like my mom has.

But did mom say, "Great, now I will bless you with giving you some ice-cream because
you know what being burned feels like"?

No. 

That is one way to interpret the Eden epoch.   This may be difficult because the information may be incomplete – but here is a thought.  What do you think of a parent that not only leaves their child unattended to experiment with a hot stove but knowing that they are in grave danger beyond just the hot stove but for their very life - knowing that a child predator will take any advantage possible of the child, abuse the child and bring about the child’s death.  Then, after this is done, the parent takes no responsibility for un-attending the child in their need and allowing the death of the child and then blames the child for not listening when the child was told not to touch the stove – even though the parent knew full well the plan of the predator and not only did nothing to stop the predator but did nothing to protect the child (that obviously was not experienced enough and did not know better nor understand the dire consequences).    Would you trust such a parent to look after your child? Or trust such to protect anyone in danger or anyone in need of assistance?  Do you really believe such a parent has no responsibility what-so-ever concerning the outcome?

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

On 4/1/2023 at 12:55 PM, Vort said:

*Many in the Restored Church of Christ, including apostles and other leaders, have opined that in the case of the garden of Eden, "transgression" is not the same as "sin". I find this argument deeply unconvincing

 

My take -

When God forbade Adam and eve to partake of the ToKoG&E, it was not a commandment.  God wanted Adam & Eve to partake of the fruit, of their own volition contrary to his recommendation. IT WAS NOT A SIN.  And He explained that the consequences of partaking the fruit - was eventual death.

Partaking of the fruit can be viewed as causing the regression from a terrestrial state to a telestial state.  OR, is can be viewed as step in the right direction (a fall up) toward eternal life.  Without the fall none of us would have had the opportunity to obtain eternal life.  Adam and Eve’s transgression was a choice to experience the trials of life and the blessings of family.

When Eve and then Adam partook of the fruit, we (the premortal spirits) no doubt shouted for joy.

We do the same thing with our children.  Don’t touch fire or play with matches. 

And the curses that God gave to Eve and Adam were actually blessings in disguise…

Edited April 4, 2023 by mikbone

[romans8]

On 4/3/2023 at 7:20 PM, Traveler said:

That is one way to interpret the Eden epoch.   This may be difficult because the information may be incomplete – but here is a thought.  What do you think of a parent that not only leaves their child unattended to experiment with a hot stove but knowing that they are in grave danger beyond just the hot stove but for their very life - knowing that a child predator will take any advantage possible of the child, abuse the child and bring about the child’s death.  Then, after this is done, the parent takes no responsibility for un-attending the child in their need and allowing the death of the child and then blames the child for not listening when the child was told not to touch the stove – even though the parent knew full well the plan of the predator and not only did nothing to stop the predator but did nothing to protect the child (that obviously was not experienced enough and did not know better nor understand the dire consequences).    Would you trust such a parent to look after your child? Or trust such to protect anyone in danger or anyone in need of assistance?  Do you really believe such a parent has no responsibility what-so-ever concerning the outcome?

Your comparison to the Eden epoch is invalid.  God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree and did not
attend to them 100% of the time.  So I would not say He was an irresponsible parent.  Your introduction of a
child predator into the epoch is invalid too. Adam and Eve had nothing to fear from the serpent.  Neither was
God to be viewed as an irresponsible parent for allowing the serpent to speak to them.

As for your last question. God is not responsible for the Fall anymore than your parents are responsible for your
sin.

[romans8]

On 4/1/2023 at 3:55 PM, Vort said:

Whatever was involved in Adam and Eve's fall, it was a necessary step. We may assume based on scriptural accounts that it was done out of order and therefore unapproved of God.

What do you mean by "it was done out of order"?

[romans8]

On 4/1/2023 at 11:05 AM, zil2 said:

If she was born more than 30 years ago, she probably said, "I told you not to do that. But come to me and I'll break this aloe plant and apply its healing balm."

I wonder then if the child is incentivized to keep disobeying (choosing to touch the hot stove) knowing
that the healing balm is coming afterwards.

[romans8]

On 3/25/2023 at 10:16 AM, Carborendum said:

Try again.

Here are a few teachings to support my earlier premise - that they had to disobey one
commandment in order to obey another.

Old Testament Instructor’s Guide, Religion 301–2

Eve was deceived and beguiled by Satan into partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge 
of good and evil (see Moses 4:5–6, 19; 1 Timothy 2:14). As a result, Adam was required to make 
a choice. He chose to obey the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, which choice 
was in harmony with the will of God. Nevertheless, because of his choice and his partaking of 
the fruit, Adam, with Eve, was removed from the Garden of Eden. The following statement by 
President Joseph Fielding Smith clarifies the account of this event:

“What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do, and I hate to hear anybody call 
it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to 
you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to 
the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17 quoted.]

Discuss why Adam’s transgression was “the very thing the Lord wanted him to do.” In giving 
Adam the two commandments, the Lord placed him in a position to choose between a higher law 
and a lesser law. In either case, Adam was responsible for the consequences of his choice. 
He could not blame the Lord.
 

The Fall of Adam and the Gift of Agency

[Adam and Eve] transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their 
garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. To 
add further sorrow and complexity to their circumstance, their transgression had spiritual 
consequences as well, cutting them off from the presence of God forever. Because we were 
then born into that fallen world and because we too would transgress the laws of God, we 
also were sentenced to the same penalties that Adam and Eve faced.

This same curse of Adam was inherited by his descendants.

Teachings of President Joseph Fielding Smith

But Adam, in breaking the law, himself became subject to the curse, and being under the curse 
could not atone, or undo what he had done. Neither could his children, for they also were under 
the curse, and it required one who was not subject to the curse to atone for that original sin. 
Moreover, since we were all under the curse, we were also powerless to atone for our individual 
sins.

[zil2]

35 minutes ago, romans8 said:

I wonder then if the child is incentivized to keep disobeying (choosing to touch the hot stove) knowing
that the healing balm is coming afterwards.

Seriously?  You never burned yourself as a child?  Your mother never put aloe on it?  You still go around touching hot burners or pans?    Or maybe you're a parent and when your child is foolish and burns or hurts themselves you just say, "I told you so, now you get to suffer!  Suffer, kid, suffer!"

Or to bring it back to the topic, you run around willfully sinning away since you know repentance is always an option? Deceive on Saturday, repent on Sunday, ad infinitum?

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, romans8 said:

I wonder then if the child is incentivized to keep disobeying (choosing to touch the hot stove) knowing
that the healing balm is coming afterwards.

Usually not.  

But, with experience, and understanding humanity has taken dangerous fire and harnessed it to make it one of our most effective tools.

And, as we continue to obey and lean on the wisdom of our elders we can become blessed with opportunity and joy.  

knives, motors, electricity, nuclear power, interstellar travel, medicine, computers, knowledge.

These tools must be respected.  

Perhaps we have been placed here at this place, at this time to learn to honor and trust our Father.  

He has a balm to heal our errors and infirmities.   But he also wants to condition us so that we won’t always have to to learn the hard way.  

Latter-Day Saints believe that those children of God whom obtain the Celestial Kingdom will be allowed to harness tools are way more dangerous than an open fire.

Man, I love Homer.  But he probably shouldn’t be running a nuclear power plant.  And he would be uncomfortable with the responsibility.

Heaven for Homer might just be a comfortable recliner with unlimited donuts and squishies.

Edited April 8, 2023 by mikbone

[mikbone]

Here is another one.

Johnny, don’t climb out of your crib.

[romans8]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Seriously?  You never burned yourself as a child?

My mom told me to never to touch a hot stove and I never disobeyed. As I grew old, I did disobey
some of her other commands but I never was blessed by her for my disobedience to her.

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, romans8 said:

Your comparison to the Eden epoch is invalid.  God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree and did not
attend to them 100% of the time.  So I would not say He was an irresponsible parent.  Your introduction of a
child predator into the epoch is invalid too. Adam and Eve had nothing to fear from the serpent.  Neither was
God to be viewed as an irresponsible parent for allowing the serpent to speak to them.

As for your last question. God is not responsible for the Fall anymore than your parents are responsible for your
sin.

I do not understand your claim of invalid.  If G-d knows all thing - then he knew full well about the serpent and the serpent lies and that Eve would be beguiled but he nether said anything nor did he do anything to warn Eve about the serpent.   If you left your child (without any understanding of right and wrong or good and evil) in a playground to be beguiled by a child molester – and you knew in advance what the child molester would say and do and you did nothing to prevent or prepare your child for the molester – I do not care what else you told your little child – I believe you are complicit – obviously you did not prepare your child sufficiently.  That Eve said she was beguiled; specifically indicates she was not adequately prepared and that she did not understand it was wrong.

And I do not understand your last statement – Why are you punished (as well as everyone else) for the transgressions of Adam and Eve?  This is not just about Adam and Eve not understanding what they were getting into but even more so all of us that have descended from Adam and Eve that had no say or input into what we are led to believe concerning the Eden epoch.

My point is that the Eden epoch is not to be understood or interpreted literally.  Those that do will not understand G-d, his justice, his plan for mankind or what really happened and why.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:52 AM, romans8 said:

On 4/1/2023 at 12:55 PM, Vort said:

Whatever was involved in Adam and Eve's fall, it was a necessary step. We may assume based on scriptural accounts that it was done out of order and therefore unapproved of God.

What do you mean by "it was done out of order"?

I'm not sure where the confusion lies. "It" refers to the fall of Adam and Eve.

[romans8]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Traveler said:

If you left your child (without any understanding of right and wrong or good and evil) in a playground to be beguiled by a child molester – and you knew in advance what the child molester would say and do and you did nothing to prevent or prepare your child for the molester – I do not care what else you told your little child – I believe you are complicit – obviously you did not prepare your child sufficiently.

Based on your comments, my mom is complicit - she did not prepare me sufficiently.
 

On 4/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Traveler said:

And I do not understand your last statement – Why are you punished (as well as everyone else) for the transgressions of Adam and Eve?

Indirectly punished because we are born in a fallen state due to their disobedience.
 

On 4/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, Traveler said:

My point is that the Eden epoch is not to be understood or interpreted literally. 

What are the trees of Moses 4:7-9?

Edited April 22, 2023 by romans8