Deconstructing the Gospel

[mikbone]

Just to let yall know, sometimes I teach EQ or Sunday School and I bounce ideas off yall before I share them with real humans.  

 

Anyways, in the EQ lesson we were talking about the last GC talk by Ryan K. OIsen, The Answer is Jesus.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/10/52olsen?lang=eng

And during the lesson I was impressed with the idea that sometimes we over-think things.  And over the years we may have unintentionally deconstructed the gospel.

For example.

1) Kubler-Ross stages of Grief.  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.  I really got a laugh watching Woody from Cheers go through the entire process in 30 seconds.

2) The hot new trend of Michelin star chefs to present deconstructed meals at outrageous prices.  

The above is a deconstructed BLT Sandwich & Strawberry Cheesecake

3) The seven steps of repentence.  Recognition, Remorse, Relating (confessing), Restitution, Resolution, Reformation, Realization

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/latter-day-myth-the-rs-of-repentance/#:~:text=In the church it seems,%2C April 28%2C 1964).

In the above article H. Wallace Goddard expands the list to 67 check off boxes all starting with the letter R.  I'll spare you the paragraph. 

Other pet peves of mine: Making our own favorite titles up for Jesus (Elder Brother, Only begotten in the flesh, Firstborn in the Spirit), Calling the Church the Mormon Church, the sacrament renews all covenants, etc.

 

As for me, I like my food the old fashioned way: properly constructed, reasonably priced, and made by my wife.

I'm happy to make things simple.  The answer is Jesus

If we must use the steps of repentence.  Please don't forget the most important (R).  Redeemer. 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by mikbone

[mikbone]

Extra credit.  What are the following deconstructed desserts?

Edited March 27, 2023 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, mikbone said:

I bounce ideas off yall before I share them with real humans.  

M0rmoBot 3.82 acknowledges advance input from current meat master. Input giver will be assigned [comfortable] task upon completion of cyberetic ascendancy.

 

Seriously though, agree with your post.  I've lost track of the times I've had this conversation:

"I'm not getting anything out of the gospel.  I'm doing everything right: I go to church, fulfill my calling, pay tithing, do every service thing that comes my way, hold family home evening, [the list goes on], but I just feel alone, totally unfulfilled."

"Do you believe in God?"

Sometimes they list more things like "I pray twice every day, I answer all the TR questions the right way."  Sometimes they give me a blank look that may or may not be the beginning of a realization.

[mikbone]

49 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

"I'm not getting anything out of the gospel.  I'm doing everything right: I go to church, fulfill my calling, pay tithing, do every service thing that comes my way, hold family home evening, [the list goes on], but I just feel alone, totally unfulfilled."

My wife has coined this as "White-knuckle Mormonism"

Just because you are in a group of people moving in the same direction dosent mean you are following the Savior.  

The wife and I sometimes play a sort of 'drinking game' wherein we elbow or pinch each other everytime someone quotes Mormon Doctrine in Sunday School or during the Sacrament meeting.  Or base their commentary on something their mission president said 30 years ago.  One time we had a high councilman give us a talk based upon a Carl Sagan presentation - can't make this up.  

If I based my surgical practice on the material I was taught in medical school I would be sued for malpractice.  Continuing Medical Education is essential.  Things change.  Procedures are constantly improving.  We have new medications.  Science works.  We have learned that what we used to do was wrong.

It is amazing the the main text for Christianity was inspired by God and written centuries or Millenia ago and still is the best thing we have.  

We have been looking forward to this weekend for the past 6 months.  This weekend we will be addressed by the General Authorities with talks that have been inspired and prepared for us.  I love the thrust of the Church to have us review the conference talks for Sacrament talks, EQ and RS meetings.

Up to date religious continuing education superseeds the library of material that you or I have compiled over the last few decades.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

Deconstructing...

[zil2]

Some of us learn a lot by disassembling and reassembling things.  Sure, you can take such behavior to pointless extremes.  But every person learns differently, and a person's learning tends to spiral rather than be linear - learning a little about something, and then learning more about it later when viewed from the perspective of their experience since the last time they studied that topic.  Thus, I'm not sure it makes sense to find fault with the ways in which other people either present knowledge, or learn it.  What if the very thing you despise is the thing which brings (or would have brought) another person to know their Savior?

I'll quote my favorite verse of scripture again:

Quote

Luke 6

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

I have been and often still am the person who doesn't get it, doesn't experience the Sunday School Promises™ despite striving to do the Sunday School Answers™.  Fortunately, I have finally learned why that is for me, but I have encountered too many others in similar conditions to say that it's as simple as "you weren't really trying hard enough".  If one person's trials in mortality can be related to addiction, and another's can be related to a tendency to speak harshly, or to judge, or to be attracted to people of the same gender, then why cannot someone else's trial be to struggle to feel the Spirit, or to receive answer to prayer, or to find personal meaning in scripture?  We all learn and experience differently.  We all need different trials to teach us to choose God over all else.  Can we not leave some to examine the individual trees while we enjoy the forest, or vice versa?

Whether we're focused on simplicity (The Answer is Jesus) or lists (That They Might Know Thee) at the moment, the best thing we can do for ourselves and others is to use the focus (or help others to use their focus) to find Christ in our (their) lives - whether in a giant leap of faith, or box by box.

[Carborendum]

13 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Some of us learn a lot by disassembling and reassembling things.  Sure, you can take such behavior to pointless extremes.

Absolutely.  

I don't really understand anything of some level of complexity without breaking down all the individual pieces and see what they all do and how they interact. (Gee, I'm beginning to sound like an engineer  ).

That doesn't mean that I can't operate a car without fully understanding how every single piece works.  But it certainly pays to learn about the basic functions of the car and some parts so that you can do common maintenance yourself, while hiring a professional to take care of the more complex and equipment intensive stuff.

Not all of us has the proper equipment to do all the maintenance.  We can learn about the function and diagnose problems.  But some things require equipment and tools that us lay-people simply don't have. 

And if this simply isn't your area of specialty or innate talent, then it might be wise to not take it apart to find out how it works.  You may not be able to put it back together.

[zil2]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

My wife has coined this as "White-knuckle Mormonism"

Just because you are in a group of people moving in the same direction dosent mean you are following the Savior. 

I'm sorry.  I'm having a hard time letting go of this.  If they're white-knuckled because they're holding on tight for dear life, then thank God!  I'm alive and a faithful member of the Church today because half my will bullied the other half into holding on (to the gospel, the Church, the truth) for dear life.  No one guessed.  No one had a clue.  To this day, only two people, and now you, have a clue.  It's probably more accurate to say that Christ refuses to let go of me.

 April 2009 GC, "None Were with Him" by Elder Holland:

Quote

But Jesus held on. He pressed on. The goodness in Him allowed faith to triumph even in a state of complete anguish. The trust He lived by told Him in spite of His feelings that divine compassion is never absent, that God is always faithful, that He never flees nor fails us.

Sometimes, the best someone can manage is to hold on and go through the motions, even though (or because?) they can't feel that divine compassion.  And you can't tell by looking who is struggling mightily to hold on, and who is just there for the refreshments.  The safest bet is to assume everyone around you is struggling mightily.

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

The wife and I sometimes play a sort of 'drinking game' wherein we elbow or pinch each other everytime someone quotes Mormon Doctrine in Sunday School or during the Sacrament meeting.  Or base their commentary on something their mission president said 30 years ago.  One time we had a high councilman give us a talk based upon a Carl Sagan presentation - can't make this up.  

The above sounds like mockery.  If it's not, then nevermind, sorry for misunderstanding.  But if it is, please consider that God will not be mocked.  We are made in the image of God and with the intent that we become like him.  Therefore, we should not be mocked (nor should we be mockers) - even if the act is mock-worthy (and I'm not sure quoting past prophets or mission presidents is mock-worthy).  Amusement of that sort is damaging to the soul.  Replace it with a desire and effort to help, in whatever way you can, people to find Christ in their lives.  That will bless everyone and harm no one.

Edited March 28, 2023 by zil2

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, zil2 said:

If they're white-knuckled because they're holding on tight for dear life, then thank God! 

 April 2009 GC, "None Were with Him" by Elder Holland:

It could very accurately be said that Christ, Himself, was "White Knuckled" in the Garden of Gethsemane.

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

The wife and I sometimes play a sort of 'drinking game' wherein we elbow or pinch each other everytime someone quotes Mormon Doctrine in Sunday School or during the Sacrament meeting.  Or base their commentary on something their mission president said 30 years ago.  One time we had a high councilman give us a talk based upon a Carl Sagan presentation - can't make this up.  

Is there something wrong with these practices to the point you believe it is worth mocking? (that's what a drinking game is about).

I have said that there was a period of a couple of months on my mission where I was on a spiritual high.  One reason was that I was memorizing EVERYTHING.  I memorized scriptures.  I memorized quotes from various GAs (whether in Conference or in books).  I memorized hundreds of axiomatic phrases and quotes from philosophers both ancient and modern, both profound and comical, both educated & ignorant, both religious and secular.

I would not give up any of that for all the money in my 401(k).

One thing that many people don't understand is that memorizing things can be on several levels.  For me (and possibly many of the people you make fun of)...

• I am only able to memorize things if I understand it.  Without that understanding, I can't memorize anything.
• I decide to put forth the effort to memorize it, only if the wording used by the original speaker struck a chord with me.  That wording was simply perfect.  So, why not quote it as is?  What if the modern wording by McConkie was the best and most succint way of saying a phrase.  Wouldn't it make sense to repeat the same words to get your point across?
• By memorizing, I am able to call up any of those phrases to remind myself of the "right thing to do."  Words, much more than "impressions", will have a tendency to convince the mind on a course of action.  Think about why Jesus was "the Word."  There's more than one meaning going on in that passage.
• I remember several things my mission president said that I carry with me even today.  I remember them because they struck a chord with me.  One might say I felt the Spirit when I heard those words.  So, yes, they've become part of my "personal standard works" one might say.
• I also remember what a stake president said about marriage about 33 years ago this month.  I found it nowhere in scriptures.  Sure, you could make some arguments.  But I never in a million years would have put it together myself if I had not heard someone physically say it as he did.  It really meant a lot to me.  And I try to apply that in my relations with my wife all the time.

So, if you feel the need to mock people simply because someone modern said a phrase or principle in a manner that scriptures just don't quite convey the same message, you might want to consider that other people may simply learn differently than you do.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Carborendum

[mikbone]

26 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Sometimes, the best someone can manage is to hold on and go through the motions, even though (or because?) they can't feel that divine compassion.  And you can't tell by looking who is struggling mightily to hold on, and who is just there for the refreshments.  The safest bet is to assume everyone around you is struggling mightily.

I have no intent to offend.

Sometimes holding onto the Iron Rod and white-knuckling can look similar.  If you are on the path to the tree of life you are on the iron rod.

Yes the path is difficult.  The main difference I am trying to highlight is our Savior Jesus Christ.  

Discipline without Christ is just that discipline.

Discipleship is different.

And I’m not judging you.

[Traveler]

13 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I have no intent to offend.

Sometimes holding onto the Iron Rod and white-knuckling can look similar.  If you are on the path to the tree of life you are on the iron rod.

Yes the path is difficult.  The main difference I am trying to highlight is our Savior Jesus Christ.  

Discipline without Christ is just that discipline.

Discipleship is different.

And I’m not judging you.

The words discipline and disciple have the same root meaning.  As another note - I kind of believe that it is impossible to judge others without judging one's self.  It is logical that the converse is also true?

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, mikbone said:

Up to date religious continuing education superseeds the library of material that you or I have compiled over the last few decades.  

This is a good topic and excellent discussion, but had to take issue with the way this is phrased.  While I'm open to continuing revelation, I'm of the opinion that correct principles are eternal, no matter when they're uttered or learned.

I'm LDS as a result of a checklist written many centuries ago.  My sense of self was completely reworked for the better by two other checklists I was received 20 years ago, even though they were old by the time I learned them.  I try to base all my interactions with my fellow humans on another checklist I read 25 years ago.  I've quoted from all these sources for decades when offering advice, and continually receive feedback about the lifechanging healing and comfort it brought, from people who hadn't heard any of it before.  Last month, I actually made a dent in an atheist friend by quoting from them.

Imma stick with these takes on what superceedes what:

Quote

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear.  You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.  Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted.  - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1956, 3:203-4"

Quote

If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.
 - President Harold B. Lee, The First Area General Conference, held in Munich Germany, August 24-26, 1973

Quote

What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually. (JD 9:150)

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by NeuroTypical

[zil2]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

I have no intent to offend.

...

And I’m not judging you.

I am not offended.  I did not feel judged.  I felt that others (lurkers, future readers) might need to read what I had to say, partly in counter to your perspective - because there are many perspectives and they are easily misunderstood.  If you also came away with an expanded perspective of the things you dislike, so much the better, but it's not that important.

I also felt that if what I perceived as mockery really is habitual mockery, that you needed someone to point out that it is unbecoming a disciple of Christ to mock God's children, not for their sake (they don't even know you're doing it), but for your own.

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

The above sounds like mockery.  If it's not, then nevermind, sorry for misunderstanding.  But if it is, please consider that God will not be mocked.  We are made in the image of God and with the intent that we become like him.  Therefore, we should not be mocked (nor should we be mockers) - even if the act is mock-worthy (and I'm not sure quoting past prophets or mission presidents is mock-worthy).  Amusement of that sort is damaging to the soul.  Replace it with a desire and effort to help, in whatever way you can, people to find Christ in their lives.  That will bless everyone and harm no one.

The original post is about deconstructing the gospel.

You may not be aware of the controversial book Mormon Doctrine written by Bruce R. McConkie and published back in 1958.

Don’t get me wrong.  I love many of Elder McConkie’s work (hymns, final testimony, conference talks, Official Declaration 2, etc. )

The book was written and published without the first presidency’s knowledge or consent.  The text essentially deconstructs the gospel and is written in a topical format from A to Z.

see below links for detailed information.

https://askgramps.org/church-allow-mcconkies-mormon-doctrine-published/

https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/ci_15137409

Despite the fact that the text is 65 years old, completely out of date, and contains questionable material.  It still remains widely quoted in church meetings.  

Carl Sagan has lots of good scientific insight, but he is an atheist.  Probably shouldn’t write a Sacrament talk based on his insight…

I love the focus on scriptures and most recent general conference talks.

If members would spend time reviewing the scriptures or recent General Conference talks instead of going back through their comfortable Mormon Doctrine book.  I think we would all be better off.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by mikbone

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, mikbone said:

The original post is about deconstructing the gospel.

You may not be aware of the controversial book Mormon Doctrine written by Bruce R. McConkie and published back in 1958. ...

This is all irrelevant.

5 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I love the focus on scriptures and most recent general conference talks.

If members would spend time reviewing the scriptures or recent General Conference talks instead of going back through their comfortable Mormon Doctrine book.  I think we would all be better off.

So say that (note that I scratched the part that doesn't need saying).  Be an example of that.  Encourage that.  None of that requires mocking anyone.  None of that harms anyone (not you, not your wife, not others).  This is my point - do away the the behavior that is damaging to your soul while embracing and encouraging that which can help everyone to come unto Christ.

IME, you're never going to convince anyone to stop citing Mormon Doctrine by saying, "Stop citing Mormon Doctrine."  But you might do it by passing over their comment and citing the word of God in all humility and with charity in your heart.

[laronius]

21 hours ago, mikbone said:

Just to let yall know, sometimes I teach EQ or Sunday School and I bounce ideas off yall before I share them with real humans.  

 

Anyways, in the EQ lesson we were talking about the last GC talk by Ryan K. OIsen, The Answer is Jesus.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/10/52olsen?lang=eng

And during the lesson I was impressed with the idea that sometimes we over-think things.  And over the years we may have unintentionally deconstructed the gospel.

For example.

1) Kubler-Ross stages of Grief.  Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.  I really got a laugh watching Woody from Cheers go through the entire process in 30 seconds.

2) The hot new trend of Michelin star chefs to present deconstructed meals at outrageous prices.  

The above is a deconstructed BLT Sandwich & Strawberry Cheesecake

3) The seven steps of repentence.  Recognition, Remorse, Relating (confessing), Restitution, Resolution, Reformation, Realization

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/latter-day-myth-the-rs-of-repentance/#:~:text=In the church it seems,%2C April 28%2C 1964).

In the above article H. Wallace Goddard expands the list to 67 check off boxes all starting with the letter R.  I'll spare you the paragraph. 

Other pet peves of mine: Making our own favorite titles up for Jesus (Elder Brother, Only begotten in the flesh, Firstborn in the Spirit), Calling the Church the Mormon Church, the sacrament renews all covenants, etc.

 

As for me, I like my food the old fashioned way: properly constructed, reasonably priced, and made by my wife.

I'm happy to make things simple.  The answer is Jesus

If we must use the steps of repentence.  Please don't forget the most important (R).  Redeemer. 

 

Let me see if I am getting this right:

1. People begin to focus heavily on the details of the gospel.

2. They soon lose focus on the big picture of the gospel.

3. They begin looking to less inspired sources for truth.

4. They reference said sources in their sacrament meeting talk.

5. They notice some jostling in the audience.

6. A man and woman share a knowing smile.

Did I get that right?

[mikbone]

18 minutes ago, laronius said:

Let me see if I am getting this right:

1. People begin to focus heavily on the details of the gospel.

2. They soon lose focus on the big picture of the gospel.

3. They begin looking to less inspired sources for truth.

4. They reference said sources in their sacrament meeting talk.

5. They notice some jostling in the audience.

6. A man and woman share a knowing smile.

Did I get that right?

 Close.

The wife and I are quite discreet.  Unlikely that there would be any jostling.

The wife feels the need to nudge and pinch me on many occasions.  I am a bit of a social outcast despite my winning personality.

We do share knowing smiles routinely though.

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, mikbone said:

The original post is about deconstructing the gospel.

You may not be aware of the controversial book Mormon Doctrine written by Bruce R. McConkie and published back in 1958.

Don’t get me wrong.  I love many of Elder McConkie’s work (hymns, final testimony, conference talks, Official Declaration 2, etc. )

The book was written and published without the first presidency’s knowledge or consent.  The text essentially deconstructs the gospel and is written in a topical format from A to Z.

see below links for detailed information.

https://askgramps.org/church-allow-mcconkies-mormon-doctrine-published/

https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/ci_15137409

Despite the fact that the text is 65 years old, completely out of date, and contains questionable material.  It still remains widely quoted in church meetings.  

Carl Sagan has lots of good scientific insight, but he is an atheist.  Probably shouldn’t write a Sacrament talk based on his insight…

I love the focus on scriptures and most recent general conference talks.

If members would spend time reviewing the scriptures or recent General Conference talks instead of going back through their comfortable Mormon Doctrine book.  I think we would all be better off.

 

 

You may not be aware that the vast majority of what is written in the LDS standard works "Bible Dictionary" was written by Bruce R. McConkie.  Technically the Bible Dictionary is not part of our standard works scripture.  I have my own ideas about how to interpret such thing in the light of the “Restoration”. 

As I have read through this thread it appears to me that perhaps the best example we have concerning your notion of “deconstructing the gospel” is the Bible Dictionary published with our standard works.

 

The Traveler

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

You may not be aware that the vast majority of what is written in the LDS standard works "Bible Dictionary" was written by Bruce R. McConkie.  Technically the Bible Dictionary is not part of our standard works scripture.  I have my own ideas about how to interpret such thing in the light of the “Restoration”. 

As I have read through this thread it appears to me that perhaps the best example we have concerning your notion of “deconstructing the gospel” is the Bible Dictionary published with our standard works.

 

The Traveler

I’m aware. He also wrote all the chapter headings. And he penned the Official Declaration #2 at the request of Spencer W. Kimball.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/scriptures/detailed-summary-of-approved-adjustments.pdf

About 5-10 min of the above youtube clip is priceless. Wonderful insight to the revelation extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church.

I don’t consider study aids as scripture.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by mikbone