Missionaries and Gayness

[Jamie123]

I always understood that missionaries were paired off with members of their own sex because...well let's face it, there's always a chance that pairs of people of the opposite sex to each other would be attracted to each other....and since they spend every waking hour together...well it's not really worth the risk, now is it?

(I guess there are other reasons, but that's got to be pretty high on the list?)

But what about gays? (I'm not talking about practicing gays - I know they're not allowed to be missionaries at all - but non-practicing celibate gays. Does that not potentially lead to the same problem? Yes I know the chances of two gays being "on the same team" are pretty low, and I daresay measures are put in place to stop this happening, but there's still the chance of a gay missionary getting infatuated with his non-gay partner is there not?

(BTW  I once went to a gay convention with my wife and some of her gay friends, and the first time I was terrified of being "hit upon" by gay man, she told me "they know the difference". And to be fair no one did hit upon me, though that could be because I'm ugly. I actually do on the whole quite like gay people. At one point we had a (practicing) gay vicar, and though I wasn't totally comfortable with receiving communion from a gay priest, I did like the man. Sandi Toksvig is gay. So is Elton John. So is David Starkey - and he's the most delightfully politically incorrect person imaginable! (And having an honorary degree revoked by the University of Lancaster has got to be a greater honour than getting it in the first place!) The only gay people I didn't like were (a) Thomas from Downton Abbey and (b) Todd from Coronation Street - and both of them are fictional characters from soap operas so they don't really count.)

So (returning to LDS missionaries now) why do they not change the man-man, woman-woman rule for gays, and have gay elders partnered off with lesbian sisters? (Though I suppose that would only work if there were exactly equal numbers of both.) That would have exactly the same effect as putting straight elders with straight elders and straight sisters with straight sisters! I can't see it happening of course, but...just an idea!

Edited April 4, 2023 by Jamie123

[NeuroTypical]

There aren't enough celibate gay LDS missionaries to warrant a policy.  It's a case-by-case basis, with everyone involved making the best decisions they can with the information they have, relying on faith in the Lord and trust in one another to make it work.

[Just_A_Guy]

I thought that, at least 20 years ago, same-gender-attracted folks were considered honorably excused from missionary service even if they had 100% complied with the law of chastity.  I’m wondering when, or if, that policy has formally changed.  Certainly we hear a lot of out-gays talk about their missionary service, but I’m not sure that they had “come out” prior to their calls.

The funny thing is that Boyd K. Packer gave a talk thirty years ago that the LGBTQ lobby interprets as endorsing violence against gays—but in context, he was talking about an anecdote where a straight missionary had woken up to find himself being molested by his gay companion (the missionary had, as I recall, given the perp a swift punch in the face and then felt guilty about it; whereas Elder Packer suggested that it was well-deserved).  So, yes; I think scenarios like you describe are inevitably going to be an issue; especially as LGBTQ advocacy progresses into what I think is the inexorable next step (and which I understand is already happening with male-to-female transgender folk demanding acceptance within the lesbian community):  that refusing the sexual advances of an LGBTQ suitor is per se bigotry.

But to your question:  I think pairing self-identified gay elders with self-identified lesbian sisters creates its own set of issues—sisters wondering if the elder is *really* gay (and the fact that sexual orientation is often more of a spectrum than a binary) (and, what about bisexuals?); and many women (LDS or not) are just plain intimidated/threatened by the idea of living with men generally, regardless of orientation.  And frankly, LDS missionaries are (by design) highly visible and since outsiders who see them wouldn’t necessarily know that they’re LGBTQ and would just see an unmarried couple living together—it becomes sort of an image, “Caesar’s wife must be above reproach” sort of thing.

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[NeuroTypical]

56 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think pairing self-identified gay elders with self-identified lesbian sisters creates its own set of issues

Yep.  Thought experiment: Put 100 gay male 18 yr old boys and 100 lesbian female 18 yr old girls in a room and turn out the lights.   Compare the resulting pregnancy rate to the general population of 18 year olds.

[popatr]

I don't see a way for this response not to be blunt.

My sexuality has changed somewhat over time.  I'm sure there were times in my life where I could have gone either way, and with that understanding I think I know something that some many people don't.  That it's not black and white.  Maybe that's just me but I don't think so.

People are not either gay or not.  I know that some people see it that way, but I feel sure they are mistaken.  Even and especially people who identify as gay.  Most are all tangled up in their thing and can't think rationally about it.  But also people who are straight.  Maybe they think they know that regardless of situation they'd be inclined to be straight, but they don't really know.

One example is prisons.  Some "heterosexual" prisoners end up visiting the other side of the fence.  Scientists are curious about their behavior after release but don't currently know.  In self-rebuttal, I guess it's fair to suggest that perhaps prisoners are not representative of the general population.

But another example is research on gay people, that says that a percentage of "gay" people and an even more substantial percentage of "lesbians" cross the fence at least yearly.  And a truly significant portion of lesbians have some drive to have sex with a man even if they don't act on it.  It is far less common but the same research say that a percentage of "straight" people cross the fence at least yearly.  I saw one comment from a gay community member kinda acknowledging this.  They try to fit it in their paradigm by saying that they are actually bi, but for social reasons don't want to identify that way.  In my opinion, they are just playing games designed to deceive themselves and others.

So what's really going on in my opinion?  Sexuality is a cocktail of emotions which is easily poisoned.

One aspect of intimacy is friendship.  It is usually easiest for friendship to be same-sex.

Another aspect is simple sexual desire.  Same sex relationships have some convenience built in.  No risk of kids.  More likely matched sex drives.

Another aspect is risk (or thrill or taboo) seeking.  When I acknowledge my most righteous manifestation of this , there is something exciting about thinking I might get my wife pregnant; and it's not just that I like kids; and it's not just that sex feels better without a condom.  It's a visceral feeling like I'm doing something maybe I shouldn't but man I want to.  I imagine this motivation helps us procreate in spite of the natural reasons to not want to, especially in today's world.  But this feeling is easily corrupted.  Homosexuals have more than ample risk and taboo to thrill them and it's not super common for them to have a simple monogamous "safe" sex life.   Porn addicts also overload on taboo and tend to want to see more and more wild irresponsibility.

Once you corrupt your sex drive it's nontrivial to turn it around.

Another thing poisoning the sexuality cocktail today is feminism and hatred and distrust between the sexes.

---------------------------------------------

So what about missionaries?  Well, for this to even be possible we'd need prospective missionaries to identify themselves.  It is not healthy, in my opinion, for a SSA christian to say "yes I'm gay" because, for one,  it's not black and white.  And for two, If they know it too deeply it's because they've let the corruption deepen and they probably should not be on a mission.  And for three, they should have some hope that they can have a fulfilling relationship that aligns with God's plan, via the healing of their hearts.  Faith and hope are steps one and two for that to even be posssible.  I think it is possible.  I think it happened 90% for me, thought to be clear I never had homosexual sex which I thank God for.

The right attitude for a christian is, I'm going to follow Jesus, not some worldly rainbow flag.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, popatr said:

People are not either gay or not.  I know that some people see it that way, but I feel sure they are mistaken.  Even and especially people who identify as gay.  Most are all tangled up in their thing and can't think rationally about it.  But also people who are straight.  Maybe they think they know that regardless of situation they'd be inclined to be straight, but they don't really know.

I’m not sure why anyone not familiar with me can feel justified dictating my sexual orientation.  

I’m not on the Kinsey scale.  I’m not attracted to men. There are many women that I am not attracted to.

I played football in high school and am familiar with a boys locker room.  No thanks. 

You do you. I’m not going to define your gender or sexuality.  

Please have the decency to not make assumptions about my bedroom activities.

Perhaps, If I was in a Turkish prison for life duration… But I highly doubt it.

 

If I had been assaulted by an aggressive homosexual missionary back during my mission, I probably would have decked him as well.

But 30 years later…   I would defend my honor, not retaliate physically.  But press formal charges with legal authorities.  I would also contact the mission president, question if he knew of this orientation / activity in the past.  Demand immediate emergency transfer and recommend that the missionary in question be sent home.

Edited April 4, 2023 by mikbone

[popatr]

38 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I’m not sure why anyone not familiar with me can feel justified dictating my sexual orientation.  

I’m not on the Kinsey scale.  I’m not attracted to men. There are many women that I am not attracted to.

I played football in high school and am familiar with a boys locker room.  No thanks. 

You do you. I’m not going to define your gender or sexuality.  

Please have the decency to not make assumptions about my bedroom activities.

Perhaps, If I was in a Turkish prison for life duration… But I highly doubt it.

 

If I had been assaulted by an aggressive homosexual missionary back during my mission, I probably would have decked him as well.

But 30 years later…   I would defend my honor, not retaliate physically.  But press formal charges with legal authorities.  I would also contact the mission president, question if he knew of this orientation / activity in the past.  Demand immediate emergency transfer and recommend that the missionary in question be sent home.

I certainly cannot speak about you for sure, but what I can say is that we all have the privilege of being certain we wouldn't have been nazis if we had lived in nazi germany.  But it's actually probably not true for 99% of us.  

Truth is, for most of us, there's very little utility in questioning our sexuality so I don't propose that you do.  But for those who start to pervert, I think a little doubt that they are gay is helpful.  (and I think it's actually true)

Edit again: although, if some people like myself can admit that there was gray area and provide evidence that maybe there is more grey area than most people admit--perhaps it can turn off the compassion circuits in peoples brains which tell them they have to accomodate the helpless gay people.  And the people walking the line which this society pushes more and more people toward, can feel empowered to follow God and reject the propoganda.

Edited April 4, 2023 by popatr

[mikbone]

7 minutes ago, popatr said:

But for those who start to pervert

I dont like to use charged words like pervert.

And you are free to live your life as you choose.  I’m not going to judge or ask you to change.  Those issues are yours and between you and your maker.  Possibly your ecclesiastical authority or therapist.

No one on this site is qualified to give you any advice about those personal decisions.

[NeuroTypical]

16 minutes ago, popatr said:

I certainly cannot speak about you for sure, but what I can say is that we all have the privilege of being certain we wouldn't have been nazis if we had lived in nazi germany.  But it's actually probably not true for 99% of us.  

Just for the record, most Germans in nazi Germany were not nazis.  

[popatr]

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

No one on this site is qualified to give you any advice about those personal decisions.

As respectfully as possible, I call BS.

[popatr]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Just for the record, most Germans in nazi Germany were not nazis.  

I suppose I should modify my statement to say "we all have the privilege of thiking we would have fought against hitler if we lived in nazi germany" or some other near variation of that.

[mikbone]

4 minutes ago, popatr said:

suppose I should modify my statement to say "we all have the privilege of thiking we would have fought against hitler if we lived in nazi germany" or some other near variation of that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism

[NeuroTypical]

20 minutes ago, mikbone said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism

Yeah, well, along with that, we also have to awkwardly wrestle with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_in_Germany

Quote

Gestapo agents silently attended services, likely investigating neighbors' complaints of seditious activities, but no punishment came to the church. An estimated 3-5% of adult male members joined the Nazi Party—required of state employees—and speakers avoided criticizing the government or, after the German declaration of war against the United States, emphasizing the church's relationship with that country. The government ordered the church to avoid preaching about "Jewish" topics like "Zion" and "Israel", so leaders told members to not sing hymns with such words.

After Adolf Hitler took power, American Mormon missionaries' views of the government during the 1930s varied. While also praising Hitler's oratory skill and approving of his unifying a politically divided country, they saw arrests of dissidents, enforcement of Nazi eugenics, and widespread fear of the regime. The Nuremberg Laws increased access to and interest in genealogical records, and some saw the monthly eintopf as similar to Fast Sunday, but mandatory Hitler Youth membership ended most Mormon auxiliary organizations for young people.

The guy who picked the location for my church building in Colorado Springs was a German immigrant who had been in the hitler youth.

[mikbone]

55 minutes ago, popatr said:

As respectfully as possible, I call BS.

Im a board certified practicing medical professional.  But for all you know I could be lying.

We are interacting via text on a screen.  I don't know you and you don't know me.  Even though you think you may have figured me out by our few text interactions. 

I have been a member of this site for over a decade.  I have never met anyone on the site in person.  I have made some friends and I'm sure I have irriated many people on the site, but if we had met in person and been able to discuss our issues in real time / person to person, I'm sure that our relationship would have been different.

This site does not proclaim to be able to offer any therapy or psychologic treatments. 

You would be better served seeing your Bishop or medical professional / therapist.  

Edited April 4, 2023 by mikbone

[Jamie123]

Having thought about it a bit longer, I'm not sure that putting people together 24/7 would necessarily create amorous feelings, whatever their sex or sexuality. Each (if you're familiar with Swift's poems) is going to be "Strephon to Celia" - which is fine if you've been through the dating and courtship phases and are "in love", but with a total stranger? Yuck!

[popatr]

26 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Im a board certified practicing medical professional.  But for all you know I could be lying.

We are interacting via text on a screen.  I don't know you and you don't know me.  Even though you think you may have figured me out by our few text interactions. 

I have been a member of this site for over a decade.  I have never met anyone on the site in person.  I have made some friends and I'm sure I have irriated many people on the site, but if we had met in person and been able to discuss our issues in real time / person to person, I'm sure that our relationship would have been different.

This site does not proclaim to be able to offer any therapy or psychologic treatments. 

You would be better served seeing your Bishop or medical professional / therapist.  

I don't claim to have "figured you out".  More than one thing suggests you are misunderstanding me, and maybe me you.  My best guess is that you think I'm calling for help for myself; but that was not the point at all.  Long ago I did talk to Bishops etc and I'm at peace with my own sexuality at this point (quite straight for 20+ years now)

My point is that my experience leads me to believe that sexuality can be a choice, that people are probably not either "gay or not".

Even in real life sometimes my wife and I can't understand each other--probably 80% percent my fault.  But in spite of my weakness and lack of credentials, I can speak about things touching my own life; and it has sometimes been helpful to someone, and may be helpful to others in the future.  I do not feel obliged to keep my mouth shut because "I'm not qualified" nor should anyone else.

[popatr]

49 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Im a board certified practicing medical professional.  But for all you know I could be lying.

We are interacting via text on a screen.  I don't know you and you don't know me.  Even though you think you may have figured me out by our few text interactions. 

I have been a member of this site for over a decade.  I have never met anyone on the site in person.  I have made some friends and I'm sure I have irriated many people on the site, but if we had met in person and been able to discuss our issues in real time / person to person, I'm sure that our relationship would have been different.

This site does not proclaim to be able to offer any therapy or psychologic treatments. 

You would be better served seeing your Bishop or medical professional / therapist.  

By the way, what kind of doctor are you?

[mikbone]

13 minutes ago, popatr said:

By the way, what kind of doctor are you?

Bones

[mikbone]

26 minutes ago, popatr said:

I do not feel obliged to keep my mouth shut because "I'm not qualified" nor should anyone else.

This forum is about LDS gospel discussion.

Many times it starts off with a gospel principle and then tangents off into a socially heated direction.

I just like to keep things on topic.  I know that there are 2 GAs that have been assigned to the area of homosexuality / LGBT issues.  But they are not here.  Most Bishops have to refer to their Stake Presidents or Area Representatives when dealing with these issues.

I’m not comfortable with anyones sexuality other than my own and my wife.

None of my business.

I’m not saying you need help.  I’m just relating that this is not a sexuality forum…

[popatr]

14 minutes ago, mikbone said:

This forum is about LDS gospel discussion.

Many times it starts off with a gospel principle and then tangents off into a socially heated direction.

I just like to keep things on topic.  I know that there are 2 GAs that have been assigned to the area of homosexuality / LGBT issues.  But they are not here.  Most Bishops have to refer to their Stake Presidents or Area Representatives when dealing with these issues.

I’m not comfortable with anyones sexuality other than my own and my wife.

None of my business.

I’m not saying you need help.  I’m just relating that this is not a sexuality forum…

I think what I said about sexuality was relavant to the OP (because it helped contextualize my response about the proposed policy); and sexuality is also generally relevant in a gospel discussion forum.

Edited April 4, 2023 by popatr

[mikbone]

15 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

always understood that missionaries were paired off with members of their own sex because...well let's face it, there's always a chance that pairs of people of the opposite sex to each other would be attracted to each other....and since they spend every waking hour together...well it's not really worth the risk, now is it?

Yup.

When people feel the Holy Ghost testifying of the of the truth it can be an overwhelming experience. Especially if it is the first time.

One of the ways that people feel the spirit is love. And sometimes when young missionaries are teaching investigators of their similar age of the opposite sex it can be confused for love for the missionary… Or investigator.

 

When my wife was at BYU JRC Law School she was taking a property law class wherein the professor showed a slideshow of some of his mission experiences in Germany.  

My wife mentioned at the end of the class that he was in Germany at the same time that her mother joined the church @ age 17.  My MIL is very fair with a Scottish heritage.  My FIL is Guatemalan and my wife obviously has mixed heritage.   Anyway, the professor in a dismissive manner, asked my wife for her mother’s name.  After her reply she recalls that he turned grey in the face and began to study her features with great interest.

My wife later asked her mother if she remembered elder xxxxx.  And my MIL related that she did recall him and that interestingly after his mission he visited their family when then moved back to the states in Texas.

Small world.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by mikbone

[Just_A_Guy]

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Having thought about it a bit longer, I'm not sure that putting people together 24/7 would necessarily create amorous feelings, whatever their sex or sexuality. Each (if you're familiar with Swift's poems) is going to be "Strephon to Celia" - which is fine if you've been through the dating and courtship phases and are "in love", but with a total stranger? Yuck!

Well, I’m aware that there’s a long-standing discussion about whether men and women can/should ever really be “just friends” with each other, and the notion that because of the way the male libido usually works the man in such friendships almost always—almost always, even if just subconsciously—is considering the female a potential sexual partner.

 I have never felt a powerful urge to weigh in on that debate; but I imagine that if there is some accuracy to it—that would probably apply to gay man/straight man relationships.

Regardless of whether that’s true—one of the regrettable things about the rise of the LGBTQ movement is the associated decline in the cultural idea that men can have deep, intimate, emotional, non-sexual friendships.

[mikbone]

46 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, I’m aware that there’s a long-standing discussion about whether men and women can/should ever really be “just friends”

That question was definitively answered 11 years ago @ Utah State University.

and

 

[Vort]

I mostly agree with your post, @popatr, except:

12 hours ago, popatr said:

It's a visceral feeling like I'm doing something maybe I shouldn't but man I want to.  I imagine this motivation helps us procreate in spite of the natural reasons to not want to, especially in today's world.  But this feeling is easily corrupted.

When sex gets mixed up in "things that are taboo and that you shouldn't do but want to", that's corruption right there, corruption of what should be most sacred. That's some dark, wicked stuff, of the sort I have prayed to God to protect my children from. For decades, I have wondered at people who talk about sex as "doing the nasty" and have puzzled why such people seem to find it attractive to think of sex as filthy. I guess they just don't have the same attitude toward or experience with sex as I do. (And parenthetically—HIDE THE CHILDREN!—I suspect this attitude of sex as "doing the nasty" might have something to do with the otherwise inexplicable rise of the fascination with anal sex as found in popular culture references and depictions.)

12 hours ago, popatr said:

Once you corrupt your sex drive it's nontrivial to turn it around.

My observation confirms this as one of the fundamental truths our society most needs to grasp.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Vort

[Vort]

8 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The guy who picked the location for my church building in Colorado Springs was a German immigrant who had been in the hitler youth.

My 90-year-old mother-in-law was inducted into the Hitler Youth. Her older sister was dragged away by German soldiers and returned to their family years later, deeply traumatized and unable ever to have children. The whole thing is a nightmare, one which has directly affected my own family.