Why the Elves fell

[Vort]

"Speak, Friend, and enter!"

The elves used "password" as their password. Silly elves.

[Jamie123]

I always understood western entrance of Moria came up in what was formerly the Elvish kingdom of Eregion. The Elves were friendly with the dwarves, and neither side saw any great need for security. However, the timing doesn't quite make sense:

• Eregion fell to Sauron in 1697 of the Second Age. This coincides with the founding of Rivendell by a group of survivors led by Elrond - the holder of one of the Three Rings*. (The other two were held by Galadriel and Cirdan.)
• The Second Age ended 1744 years later, with the defeat of Sauron by the Last Alliance.
• The Dwarves remained in Moria until 1981 of the Third Age, when the Balrog awoke and drove them out. That's 3725 years after the fall of Eregion.

That's a long time not to change your password!

Any Tom, Dick or Gandalf could have come along and said "friend" and entered. (Though admittedly after that time they probably wouldn't have wanted to - what with Orcs, Cave-Trolls and Balrogs waiting to eat them for dinner.)

Now perhaps a bigger and sadder Tolkien geek can resolve this...

(P.S. For the record I don't know my Middle-earth dates by heart. I keep a copy of The Lord of the Rings ready on my desk for just such emergencies as this. Dates for significant events in the backstory can be found in Appendix B.)

*Not quite correct - sorry. That ring (Vilya) didn't come to Elrond until later. It originally belonged to Gil-Galad.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Jamie123

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Any Tom, Dick or Gandalf could have come along and said "friend" and entered.

I was actually thinking about this yesterday.  Then I realized ... no.

(I don't remember how the exchange was in the book, but in the movie...) Notice that Frodo asked Gandalf how to say "friend" in Elvish.  Gandalf spoke the word.  The door did not open.  But when Frodo turned to the door and spoke "to the door", it opened.

Waddya think?

[Jamie123]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was actually thinking about this yesterday.  Then I realized ... no.

(I don't remember how the exchange was in the book, but in the movie...) Notice that Frodo asked Gandalf how to say "friend" in Elvish.  Gandalf spoke the word.  The door did not open.  But when Frodo turned to the door and spoke "to the door", it opened.

Waddya think?

Quote

With  a  suddenness  that  startled  them  all  the  wizard  sprang 
to  his  feet.  He  was  laughing!  ‘I  have  it!’  he  cried.  ‘Of  course, 
of  course!  Absurdly  simple,  like  most  riddles  when  you  see 
the  answer.’ 

Picking  up  his  staff  he  stood  before  the  rock  and  said  in  a 
clear  voice:  Mellon! 

The  star  shone  out  briefly  and  faded  again.  Then  silently 
a  great  doorway  was  outlined,  though  not  a  crack  or  joint  had 
been  visible  before.  Slowly  it  divided  in  the  middle  and  swung 
outwards  inch  by  inch,  until  both  doors  lay  back  against  the 
wall.  Through  the  opening  a  shadowy  stair  could  be  seen 
climbing  steeply  up;  but  beyond  the  lower  steps  the  darkness 
was  deeper  than  the  night.  The  Company  stared  in  wonder. 

‘I  was  wrong  after  all,’  said  Gandalf,  ‘and  Gimli  too.  Merry, 
of  all  people,  was  on  the  right  track.  The  opening  word  was 
inscribed  on  the  archway  all  the  time!  The  translation  should 
have  been:  Say  “Friend”  and  enter.  I  had  only  to  speak  the 
Elvish  word  for  friend  and  the  doors  opened.  Quite  simple. 
Too  simple  for  a  learned  lore-master  in  these  suspicious  days. 
Those  were  happier  times.  Now  let  us  go!’ 

 

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

Picking up his staff he stood before the rock and said in a clear voice: Mellon!

So to elves, calling someone a melon-head would be a term of endearment.  

[Jamie123]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So to elves, calling someone a melon-head would be a term of endearment.  

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I need some help here.  I recognize him from the Muppet Show.  But he was so infrequent, I'm not sure why the invocation of this character is germane to the topic.

[NeuroTypical]

I've been holding on to this pic for several years, just waiting for someone to start a LOTR thread.

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Note the L he's making in front of his forehead.

[Jamie123]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I need some help here.  I recognize him from the Muppet Show.  But he was so infrequent, I'm not sure why the invocation of this character is germane to the topic.

Well is surname is Honeydew, which is a melon, and it is also the shape of his head.

Furthermore it was a running joke that his alma mater was "Carnege Mellonhead University".

He also wasn't that infrequent. He appeared in most episodes alongside his assistant Beaker. (At least he referred to Beaker his "assistant". He was actually more like his guinea pig. He did experiments on Beaker.)

[Carborendum]

On 5/20/2023 at 1:49 AM, Jamie123 said:

He also wasn't that infrequent. He appeared in most episodes alongside his assistant Beaker. (At least he referred to Beaker his "assistant". He was actually more like his guinea pig. He did experiments on Beaker.)

Wow.  I really don't remember those details.

I certainly remember Beaker.  Who could forget him?  And I remember that Honeydew did some things to Beaker that didn't make sense.  And now thinking back on it.  I guess he really was doing experiments on him.  I didn't understand that back then.

You may as well consider me a kid with Aspergers because there was a lot of humor I didn't understand back then.  I just remember being confused a lot when I saw him and Beaker.  And if I don't understand it, I don't remember it.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Wow.  I really don't remember those details.

I certainly remember Beaker.  Who could forget him?  And I remember that Honeydew did some things to Beaker that didn't make sense.  And now thinking back on it.  I guess he really was doing experiments on him.  I didn't understand that back then.

You may as well consider me a kid with Aspergers because there was a lot of humor I didn't understand back then.  I just remember being confused a lot when I saw him and Beaker.  And if I don't understand it, I don't remember it.

To be fair, as a kid I didn't understand why the name "Honeydew" was funny either. I don't think I had ever seen a honeydew melon back then. When  around the age of 40 I learned what a honeydew was, the penny dropped. (Before then I connected it more with Coleridge: For I shall dine on honeydew / And drink the milk of paradise.)

There are all sorts of things on the supermarket shelves nowadays which we never dreamed of back then - not only honeydew melons but aubergines and passion fruit and fresh pineapples for 95p a go. And pease pudding. Do you have pease pudding over there? It's a more extreme version of mushy peas, or a less extreme version of hummus (depending which way you look at it).

Its also called pease porridge. The Man in the Moon burned his mouth on it while travelling south to Norwich.

Quote

The man in the moon,
Came down too soon,
And asked his way to Norwich;
He went by the south,
And burned his mouth
While eating cold pease porridge.

Everyone of my generation (I suspect) remembers that illustration from The Ladybird Book of Nursery Rhymes. And this of course brings us full-circle back to Tolkien - specifically the song that Frodo sings at the inn at Bree:

Quote

There is an inn, a merry old inn
beneath an old grey hill,
And there they brew a beer so brown
That the Man in the Moon himself came down
One night to drink his fill.

Etc...

Edited May 22, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

Another example of Dwarves and their slack security: look at what Dopey does here...

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Jamie123

[SilentOne]

Pease porridge hot

Pease porridge cold

Pease porridge in the pot

Nine days old

[Jamie123]

12 hours ago, SilentOne said:

Pease porridge hot

Pease porridge cold

Pease porridge in the pot

Nine days old

That is actually what they say. Pease pudding/porridge is supposed to improve with age.

Back in Napoleonic times, pease porridge was a staple food for sailors on long voyages. Ships' pursers would take on huge quantities of dried peas, which of course did not go bad quickly. They would be boiled into pease porridge as and when needed.

The other staple was ship's biscuits which you had to bang on the table to get the weevils out of. I remember in one of C.S. Forester's Hornblower books, the officers were in good spirits because not only was the weather fair, the biscuits (at least those served in the wardroom) had "hardly any weevils".

[NeuroTypical]

Weevils = protein.  Not protein that made anyone happy, mind you, but protein nonetheless.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I am going back to the original topic.  The dwarf door was hidden and only moonlight revealed where this entrance to Moria was.  So this was not an entrance anyone could easily find.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Still_Small_Voice

[Jamie123]

7 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I am going back to the original topic.  The dwarf door was hidden and only moonlight revealed where this entrance to Moria was.  So this was not an entrance anyone could easily find.

You're quite right - I had forgotten about that. Also Gandalf had run his hands over the stone where the doorway was.

[Jamie123]

On 5/22/2023 at 4:48 PM, Jamie123 said:

(Before then I connected it more with Coleridge: For I shall dine on honeydew / And drink the milk of paradise.)

I just realized that is not Coleridge, but Neil Peart. I'm surprised no Rush fans have pointed that out. Coleridge's version goes:

Quote

And all who heard should see them there,

And all should cry, Beware! Beware!

His flashing eyes, his floating hair!

Weave a circle round him thrice,

And close your eyes with holy dread

For he on honey-dew hath fed,

And drunk the milk of Paradise.

 

[Vort]

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I just realized that is not Coleridge, but Neil Peart. I'm surprised no Rush fans have pointed that out.

@mirkwood is asleep at his post.

[mirkwood]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

@mirkwood is asleep at his post.

Yes I am.  I really haven't paid attention to this thread or I would have seen that classic!