When iniquity invites judgement

[laronius]

Mosiah 29:26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people. 27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

Do you think this means a simple majority choosing iniquity is the deciding factor for God's judgement to be poured out? And what qualifies as "choosing iniquity"? In the political arena it can be difficult to differentiate between what is evil vs just bad policy. Some of the moral issues I think are more clear but I wouldn't necessarily label someone as evil just on those. Many supporters of these policies are otherwise decent people who do care about others. In the Book of Mormon destruction usually follows internal disruption, often when a threat against personal liberties is carried out. When evil people get power that almost always happens eventually. So maybe that's the tipping point?

[zil2]

I find it interesting that the passage uses the phrase "voice of the people" rather than "majority" or some similar term or phrase.  While the intent might have been the same, I wonder.  The supposed "silent majority" in the US may well be silently riding the minority's handbasket to hell.  Meanwhile, the "voice" is all from that minority, screaming and shouting at the top of its lungs, rapidly picking off and intimidating the silent majority.  And as soon as said "voice" feels safe, feels confident that the majority is now on their side, rest assured that any who have held on to the views of the previous majority will be persecuted beyond our current imagining.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, laronius said:

Mosiah 29:26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people. 27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

Do you think this means a simple majority choosing iniquity is the deciding factor for God's judgement to be poured out? And what qualifies as "choosing iniquity"? In the political arena it can be difficult to differentiate between what is evil vs just bad policy. Some of the moral issues I think are more clear but I wouldn't necessarily label someone as evil just on those. Many supporters of these policies are otherwise decent people who do care about others. In the Book of Mormon destruction usually follows internal disruption, often when a threat against personal liberties is carried out. When evil people get power that almost always happens eventually. So maybe that's the tipping point?

"Common" would be 2 standard deviations of the mean. A normal distribution renders this as 95% of the cases.  Non-normal distributions are more challenging to analyze and determine what is common, and politics might fall into this category since the variables for individual decision-making, and who may exercise a voice (and how), are so complex.

I agree that passing laws that remove or undermine personal (and "common" or national) liberty create a tipping point, as are laws that support secret combinations and those that fuel the symptoms of the upswing in the pride cycle. These symptoms result from an abuse of liberty where the fruits, and not liberty itself, become the primary objective.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I believe things will start getting better in America when many people begin turning back to the LORD.  Someone invited over half a million people to make a covenant with God recently and ask that the LORD heal our land.  If Latter-Day Saints are following their covenants they have made they can also begin to pray that the LORD will heal our land.

[Anddenex]

8 hours ago, laronius said:

Mosiah 29:26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people. 27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

Do you think this means a simple majority choosing iniquity is the deciding factor for God's judgement to be poured out? And what qualifies as "choosing iniquity"? In the political arena it can be difficult to differentiate between what is evil vs just bad policy. Some of the moral issues I think are more clear but I wouldn't necessarily label someone as evil just on those. Many supporters of these policies are otherwise decent people who do care about others. In the Book of Mormon destruction usually follows internal disruption, often when a threat against personal liberties is carried out. When evil people get power that almost always happens eventually. So maybe that's the tipping point?

Do you think this means a simple majority choosing iniquity is the deciding factor for God's judgement to be poured out? And what qualifies as "choosing iniquity"?

To a degree, yes, for a nation to be ripe in iniquity it would require the voice of the people to choose iniquity. My thoughts on this verse though desire to know what exactly is the judgements of God?

We are already seeing the voice of the people choosing iniquity (Look at the movement toward transgenderism (what this entails, neither male nor female which God created the dichotomy) and what is happening with our children). California is a good example of this principle of the voice of the people choosing iniquity.

Some of the moral issues I think are more clear but I wouldn't necessarily label someone as evil just on those.

I think how we view "evil" and how God views "evil" are different. I often think we as sons and daughters, experiencing the natural man/woman, we tend to go very easy on our delicate heart and mind. One day reading the Book of Ether I noticed a phrase from the Lord when speaking with the Brother of Jared when he said, "ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you."

I wanted to know what did he know that redeemed him from the fall! So I started reading the chapter again to know what he expressed that he knew that the Lord would say such, and this is one that stood out to me, "Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually;" (emphasis mine).

I would definitely say, agreeing with iniquity is definitely "evil". The Lord would see it as such also. As to the natural man, this isn't evil. I guess the question might be, if the voice of the people is "evil" (choosing iniquity) and we are part of that voice are we not then evil? We definitely aren't choosing the "good", nor the "lovely."

Threat against personal liberties is carried out

Yep, especially the freedom of speech and religion. Right now, to teach the doctrine of male and female, is changing to hate speech. Teaching the doctrine that marriage is only between a man and woman according to God's law (which won't change no matter how much people fuss) is considered intolerant and hateful.  By these subtle changes, I think it is only a matter of time when we will start to see more persecution (potentially jail time) toward religious leaders who continue to speak the truth of God, undiluted.

[Still_Small_Voice]

20 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Threat against personal liberties is carried out

Yep, especially the freedom of speech and religion. Right now, to teach the doctrine of male and female, is changing to hate speech. Teaching the doctrine that marriage is only between a man and woman according to God's law (which won't change no matter how much people fuss) is considered intolerant and hateful.  By these subtle changes, I think it is only a matter of time when we will start to see more persecution (potentially jail time) toward religious leaders who continue to speak the truth of God, undiluted.

 

This was the end goal of hate speech and hate crimes.  What is hate speech or hate crimes?  Whatever the tyrants enforcing these laws believe is such.

All hate speech and hate crimes laws should be abolished.  A crime is a crime.  We do not need to enhance a sentence for a crime because it was done in hate.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Still_Small_Voice

[zil2]

46 minutes ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

We do not need to enhance a sentence for a crime because it was done in hate.

Find me a crime that wasn't done in hate.   (And I'll help you find the hate in it.  They're all hate crimes.)

[laronius]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Find me a crime that wasn't done in hate.   (And I'll help you find the hate in it.  They're all hate crimes.)

Okay, I'll bite:

An inexperienced 16 year old accidentally drives through a red light and kills someone and gets charged with manslaughter.

Though I imagine you probably had purposeful crimes in mind. 

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, laronius said:

Okay, I'll bite:

An inexperienced 16 year old accidentally drives through a red light and kills someone and gets charged with manslaughter.

Though I imagine you probably had purposeful crimes in mind. 

Speeding is a crime as well, and could be purposeful. It’s illegal and should be but not done in hate. 

[Traveler]

Obviously, there is more to this than people committing some alliance of sin – other wise it is unlikely that the human species would have survived this long.  The term ripe in iniquity is very ambiguous.   It seems that whenever someone draws a “red” line that it somehow gets crossed, and the prophesy is not fulfilled.  I would submit that the red line of ripe in iniquity is the endangerment of children. 

From the flood to Sodom and Gomorrah to the Tower of Bable to Ninevah to the destruction of the wicked at the end of times – I would suggest that when the voice of the people allows the offences of abuse of children (especially young children under that age of accountability) that the laws and covenants of heaven require that G-d intervein to save the children.

Wars have always taken place – as well as violence and other acts of abuses deliberately targeting young children that ought to be protected by society – I speculate that the keys of destruction lay when the lives of children are sacrificed for pleasure, profit and power – that G-d will destroy such a society.

 

The Traveler

[LDSGator]

In fact, more I think about it you could argue many crimes done in negligence aren’t based in “hate”. They should still be crimes of course. 
 

“Hate” is a strong word. I’ve seen guys push each other around (assault) then five minutes later act like nothing happened. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by LDSGator

[laronius]

On 12/6/2023 at 11:35 AM, zil2 said:

I find it interesting that the passage uses the phrase "voice of the people" rather than "majority" or some similar term or phrase.  While the intent might have been the same, I wonder.  The supposed "silent majority" in the US may well be silently riding the minority's handbasket to hell.  Meanwhile, the "voice" is all from that minority, screaming and shouting at the top of its lungs, rapidly picking off and intimidating the silent majority.  And as soon as said "voice" feels safe, feels confident that the majority is now on their side, rest assured that any who have held on to the views of the previous majority will be persecuted beyond our current imagining.

You make a really good point. Far too many, including myself at times, are content to just ignore the evil that surrounds us so long as it doesn't directly impact us "too much." The problem though is that is simply the calm before the storm of persecution.

[LDSGator]

Some humor. 

[zil2]

Just now, laronius said:

You make a really good point. Far too many, including myself at times, are content to just ignore the evil that surrounds us so long as it doesn't directly impact us "too much." The problem though is that is simply the calm before the storm of persecution.

Yes, well, it's hard to know what exactly to do, especially when you're not directly involved, nor a person of influence.  I can post all the day long in Instagram about how awful it is to have drag queens teaching 6yos how to become drag queens themselves, but no one's going to pay any attention to me.

[zil2]

9 minutes ago, laronius said:

Okay, I'll bite:

An inexperienced 16 year old accidentally drives through a red light and kills someone and gets charged with manslaughter.

Though I imagine you probably had purposeful crimes in mind. 

Yes, I did have purposeful crimes in mind, not accident or negligence.

Of course, I think it's pretty hateful to go firing a two ton bullet at folks without bothering to see what it's aimed at (or recognize that that's what you're doing)... (Yes, I'm a bit less tolerant of stupid and arrogant behavior than some folks.)

Nevertheless, I am opposed to the concept.  Whether you beat Joe to a pulp because of his race or sexual orientation or gender identity or manner of dress or to steal his wallet or because he broke your sister's heart or whatever, Joe still got beaten to a pulp.  Special Joe is in no more pain than unspecial Joe.

[Carborendum]

17 hours ago, zil2 said:

Find me a crime that wasn't done in hate.   (And I'll help you find the hate in it.  They're all hate crimes.)

'tis my vocation, Hal.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Carborendum