Symbols on Temples

[Carborendum]

I've been listening to this guy (Bryce Dunford) on Youtube for a few days.  I figured I'd share one episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDmQfVhoA3Q

It's a bit long, so I'll just point out one symbol he pointed out from both the Nauvoo Temple and the SLC Temple.

• We know there are stars, moons, and suns on the temples.
• But the order is messed up from the Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial sequence.  
  • Stars are on top
  • Suns are in the middle
  • Moons are at the bottom

He points out that this incongruity can be clarified by looking at the following verse:

Quote

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 -- Rev 12:1

He points out that the woman was a symbol for the Church.  Thus the temple (also a symbol of the Kingdom of God on Earth) is wrapped (clothed) with the sun in the middle, with stars near the top (crown) and the moon near the bottom (under her feet).

Very interesting.

[laronius]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've been listening to this guy (Bryce Dunford) on Youtube for a few days.  I figured I'd share one episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDmQfVhoA3Q

It's a bit long, so I'll just point out one symbol he pointed out from both the Nauvoo Temple and the SLC Temple.

• We know there are stars, moons, and suns on the temples.
• But the order is messed up from the Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial sequence.  
  • Stars are on top
  • Suns are in the middle
  • Moons are at the bottom

He points out that this incongruity can be clarified by looking at the following verse:

He points out that the woman was a symbol for the Church.  Thus the temple (also a symbol of the Kingdom of God on Earth) is wrapped (clothed) with the sun in the middle, with stars near the top (crown) and the moon near the bottom (under her feet).

Very interesting.

So I guess a follow-up question would be is there a connection between this and the three degrees of glory or is it totally different imagery?

I have heard of the moon being likened unto prophets who receive light from the Sun/Son and shares it with the world.

An off the wall thought I had is that stars are really just suns, but much farther away. So is it speaking strictly from an earthly viewpoint or a more universal viewpoint?

[JohnsonJones]

Shouldn't there be 12 stars then...or are there (I have not counted the number of stars on the SLC temple).  One Star for each of the tribes of Israel?

[Carborendum]

There are over 40 stars of different types on the temple.  But they are grouped in ways to indicate that the groups mean something different.

One of the Center Towers (I believe it is the front one) has four stars on the three visible sides of the tower.  These twelve stars "crown" the taller tower with 12 stars.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

There are over 40 stars of different types on the temple.  But they are grouped in ways to indicate that the groups mean something different.

One of the Center Towers (I believe it is the front one) has four stars on the three visible sides of the tower.  These twelve stars "crown" the taller tower with 12 stars.

Originally there were also to be Saturn stones, which I think would have looked cool (though the intended symbolism is lost on me).

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Originally there were also to be Saturn stones, which I think would have looked cool (though the intended symbolism is lost on me).

It's a LotR reference.

[Just_A_Guy]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

It's a LotR reference.

Well, isn’t that precious?

[zil2]

23 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, isn’t that precious?

[NeuroTypical]

I keep this at my desk, right next to my Moderna phase III COVID vaccine trial award.

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, isn’t that precious?

I thought it was PREEHHH-ciousss.

[mordorbund]

14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Originally there were also to be Saturn stones, which I think would have looked cool (though the intended symbolism is lost on me).

Nibley's Temple and Cosmos (page 17): "The curious Saturn stones may refer to the unlimited glories awaiting worthy saints." No citations for it though.

[rcthompson88]

6 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Nibley's Temple and Cosmos (page 17): "The curious Saturn stones may refer to the unlimited glories awaiting worthy saints." No citations for it though.

There could also have been an astrological significance to it as there is evidence that Joseph Smith was typical for his day in that he and his family put a lot of significance in astrological signs and symbols.

[rcthompson88]

A different temple, but I have liked this article about the significance of the eight pointed star that litters the San Diego Temple. Though I will say upfront that I find the connection of this symbol with the "Seal of Melchizedek" to be a bit dubious.

Edited February 1, 2024 by rcthompson88

[Just_A_Guy]

23 hours ago, rcthompson88 said:

A different temple, but I have liked this article about the significance of the eight pointed star that litters the San Diego Temple. Though I will say upfront that I find the connection of this symbol with the "Seal of Melchizedek" to be a bit dubious.

Someone wrote an article tracing the whole “seal of Melchizedek” thing; and it turns out that it originated from a photo caption in Nibley’s book that was actually written by a research assistant and not Nibley himself.  The RA—when approached much later about it—vaguely recalled thinking they’d seen it in a book somewhere.

It’s an aesthetically cool motif, certainly a very old one, and I like the symbolic meaning that’s being imputed to it.  But I’m not convinced it’s an ancient symbol of Christ, priesthood, or anything else relating to the Gospel.

EDIT:  pretty sure this is the article I was thinking of.  https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-11-no-3-2010/seal-melchizedek

Edited February 2, 2024 by Just_A_Guy

[rcthompson88]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Someone wrote an article tracing the whole “seal of Melchizedek” thing; and it turns out that it originated from a photo caption in Nibley’s book that was actually written by a research assistant and not Nibley himself.  The RA—when approached much later about it—vaguely recalled thinking they’d seen it in a book somewhere.

It’s an aesthetically cool motif, certainly a very old one, and I like the symbolic meaning that’s being imputed to it.  But I’m not convinced it’s an ancient symbol of Christ, priesthood, or anything else relating to the Gospel.

EDIT:  pretty sure this is the article I was thinking of.  https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-11-no-3-2010/seal-melchizedek

Interesting, thanks for sharing that! I have always been more of a fan of the 8-pointed star being identified as the star of Bethlehem and representing (among other things) a new beginning.

[JohnsonJones]

On 2/1/2024 at 7:44 AM, rcthompson88 said:

A different temple, but I have liked this article about the significance of the eight pointed star that litters the San Diego Temple. Though I will say upfront that I find the connection of this symbol with the "Seal of Melchizedek" to be a bit dubious.

That is known as the Star of Abraham.  It is used a lot in Islamic construction and symbolism.  Ibrahim or Abraham is one of their most Holy Prophets.  Not only was he the father of Ishmael, but he also supposedly purged the world of idolatry and showed them the correct way to worship.  He also built the Kabbalah (sp?) and was the Holy Prophet of his time.

Some Hypothesize that Israel anciently may have also used this symbol originally.  Of interest, it would be then that both groups who claim to be descended from Abraham may have used this symbol

As for it being the Seal of the Melchizedek Priesthood...I don't know.  The Islamic religions do not make that claim as far as I know and neither do the Jewish religions or scholars that have the hypothesis about it's prior usage in the region.

If I had to hazard a guess, IF IT IS the Seal of the Melchizedek Priesthood it is due to Abraham.  He received the Melchizedek Priesthood most likely from the Priest of Salem, or Melchizedek. 

In this it could be that this symbol was originally used BY Melchizedek and as Abraham became the rightful heir of that lineage and it's blessings, which in turn blesses the entire earth as we also must trace our lineages back to him, it also became his symbol.  Hence, this symbol not only would be the Star of Abraham, but also a symbol tracing it's heritage to Shem and then to Noah and from there to Adam eventually. 

That's just a wild guess on my part though. 

The Star of Abraham is a well known Islamic symbol used prolifically today.  I'm not sure why it doesn't show up on Google searches or other things (I did a quick check so I could post some references for everyone, but I couldn't find one on the internet via google...which is surprising to me.  It is such a well known symbol in the Middle East and it's symbology I am surprised that it isn't something that is easily found via google). 

[mordorbund]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:18 AM, JohnsonJones said:

The Star of Abraham is a well known Islamic symbol used prolifically today.  I'm not sure why it doesn't show up on Google searches or other things (I did a quick check so I could post some references for everyone, but I couldn't find one on the internet via google...which is surprising to me.  It is such a well known symbol in the Middle East and it's symbology I am surprised that it isn't something that is easily found via google). 

@Just_A_Guy’s article refers to it as Rub el Hizb. Maybe that will yield results.

[mordorbund]

On 2/2/2024 at 8:50 AM, Just_A_Guy said:

Someone wrote an article tracing the whole “seal of Melchizedek” thing; and it turns out that it originated from a photo caption in Nibley’s book that was actually written by a research assistant and not Nibley himself.  The RA—when approached much later about it—vaguely recalled thinking they’d seen it in a book somewhere.

It’s an aesthetically cool motif, certainly a very old one, and I like the symbolic meaning that’s being imputed to it.  But I’m not convinced it’s an ancient symbol of Christ, priesthood, or anything else relating to the Gospel.

EDIT:  pretty sure this is the article I was thinking of.  https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-11-no-3-2010/seal-melchizedek

A shame this wasn’t written 7 years earlier. I mentioned to a professor that I wanted to learn more about the symbol, and he said he didn’t know anything about the Melchizedek connection. He gave me a referral to special collections so I could see it on the cover of a codex. Somehow I found a book with the Ravenna murals (did I get those from Lyons himself?) and got a friend who spoke German to translate portions for me. I even pulled up material on Melchizedek but there was nothing there.

Gaskill, what took you so long?!?!?!

[EH12NG]

Quietly thanking the lord this thread isn't saturated with Bill Schnoebelen conspiracies from some random anonymous account. LDS architecture is one of my smaller pleasures about our church, total sucker for the gothic look. 

*braces himself for pictures of angsty people with panda eyes*