The "Only true and living church" vs "The most correct of any church".

[laronius]

8 hours ago, Little Nipper said:

Well, I do not believe that I will be able to create living things. I do believe that we are endowed with the ability to design and think out rationally.  I believe GOD has always existed and will always exist.  And while I do believe GOD created man to live eternally, I do not believe that any of us has always existed nor are humans related by birth to GOD (though we can become adopted children of GOD). I also note that a believer can become CHRIST like in HIS image; however. being like CHRIST and actually becoming as HIM are entirely two different things.  Note the following verses: 

• 2 Corinthians 3:18: "We are being transformed into [Christ's] likeness"
• Romans 8:29: "God predestined [all believers] to be conformed to the likeness of his Son"
• 1 John 3:2: "When he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"
• Ephesians 4:22-24: "Take on an entirely new way of life – a God-fashioned life, a life renewed from the inside and working itself into your conduct as God accurately reproduces His character in you"
• Philippians 2:5: "In your lives you must think and act like Christ Jesus"

This informs me that our behavior will reflect that of JESUS CHRIST and yet it would appear that CHRIST took on a human form and identity in order to save that which was lost.  In doing so CHRIST emptied HIMSELF and HE took on the character of a servant.  Note: that JESUS while GOD prays to the FATHER and eventually had to leave so the the HOLY SPIRIT could come to reside within the heart/soul of those who have come to place their faith in GOD through CHRIST for their salvation and eternal security.  I firmly believe the Bible (Old & New Testament) is the revelation of CHRIST and that any additional "revelation" will not occur until the lost have been judged and GOD has created a NEW heaven and NEW earth.  Aside from that the thing we need to be concerned with is reaching the lost with the GOOD NEWS which is the death, burial, and resurrection of JESUS CHRIST for our salvation.

I maybe skating on thin ice when I say that the Bible clearly states that any prophet that has made ANY predictions that are false, that that individual is a false prophet. A prime example:  

Ezekiel 13:9

My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.

Deuteronomy 18:22

 

When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him.

@Little Nipper you are obviously well read and I doubt I'm going to bring some Biblical verse to your attention that you haven't previously seen. But because I said I'd respond with Biblical citations, a couple of my favorite verses that pertain to the subject at hand are:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

and 

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

But ultimately it all comes down to interpretation. You and I can read the same verse and interpret it differently. I appreciate your elaboration on your beliefs. If I had to sum up the difference in our beliefs and hence interpretation of Biblical scripture it would be this: we actually believe what God says.

Your interpretation of the scriptures you quoted concerning our relationship to God requires us to actually ignore what God has said. You essentially add a "but not really" at the end of each of God's statements about how we are His children.

I don't mean to come off as being mean spirited because it sounds like your belief in Christ is sincere and that is something all too lacking in the world today. But before you criticize our beliefs I would invite you to take a more critical look at your own. You are essentially putting limits on the progress of man. You are saying that God has essentially said "Man can come to this point but no further." Is such a limitation, which is the basis of your beliefs, Biblically supported?

Meanwhile we believe God when He says we are His children and potentially joint heirs with Christ. We believe that His commandment for us to be perfect was not an impossible requirement making God both unmerciful and unjust. We believe that Christ's ability to save us through His atonement does not have artificial limits placed on it. We believe that Heavenly Father is exactly who He says He is and we are exactly who He says we are. So you see, we actually believe Him.

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, Little Nipper said:

Where does it say in the Bible that we can become like GOD.  It is possible to be conformed to the image of CHRIST, but the reality is that Satan wanted to become like the most high and even tried to convince Adam and Eve that GOD was withholding information from them so that they could become like GOD.  That didn't go well for him (nor them).  I am firm in my belief that GOD will always and forever know infinitely more than anyone else because HE is the CREATOR and we are but HIS created creatures.  That is the only possible with regards to an all omnipotent GOD.  There are no other GODS --- there is but one and GOD is triune (an eternal loving being between the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT.

Greetings :

A study of Bible scripture does indicate that there are multiple G-ds.  Let’s start with Genesis where we are clearly told that man was created in the image and likeness of G-d.  In the same verse we are told that both male and female were created – the structure indicates (ancient Hebrew structure) that both male and female are created in the image of G-d.  Now there is a logic problem.  If G-d is both male and female that man was not really created in the image of G-d because man is not both male and female.  The only other logical conclusion is that that there is at least one male and one female G-d which was used al the model for the image and likeness of G-d.

Let’s explore another bit of scripture.  Whenever there is a reference to “one” G-d in Biblical scripture the ancient Hebrew word used is “ehad”.  Ehad is a plural word that connotates more than one involved in a union.  Ehad is also used to designate that a man and woman married before G-d is one “ehad” flesh.  There is a Hebrew word that designates a uniquely single individual.  That Hebrew word is “yhead”.  Yhead is never used in scripture to designate that G-d is a uniquely single individual. 

I will give you one additional Biblical scripture in the Book of John starting with verse 30.  When Jesus said he was “one” (ehad) with the Father, the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus.  As we read through this exchange the whole problem is that the Jews did not believe anyone could be one with G-d because that would make them G-d as well.  Consider carefully the response Jesus gave to this conundrum discussion.   Jesus said that it is written in the law that ye are g-ds.

One final scripture is again from the Gospel of John – this time chapter 17 when Jesus was praying in Gethsemane for his disciples.  Note that in verse 21 Jesus prays that the disciples will be “one” with the Father in the same was that Jesus is “one” with the Father – and to be “one” with both The Father and the Son.  Remember that this is the same becoming G-d for which the Jews claimed Jesus should be stoned.

The main point that I wish to make is that there is reference in scripture that man was created to be like G-d and “one” – ehad with G-d.  The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because to be “one” with G-d requires that both are G-d.  I would also point out that often things are not spoken directly in scripture but are spoken specifically so that those with eyes to see and ears to hear will hear and see.  I have given more than one witness in Biblical scripture – there are more that I have not referenced but if what has been provides is not seen nor heard – what is the logic to continue?

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

The topic of godhood is fascinating. Even from an Evangelical/Pentecostal perspective, the belief that we shall live for eternity, that we shall rule and reign with Christ, that we are becoming holy (progressive sanctification for theology buffs) all leads me to believe that we have undersold and undertaught the spiritual growth we are supposed to embrace. My guess is that those Evangelicals (and Fundamentalists) who come here to debate may desire to emphasize differences, but I fear we lose something in doing so. Ironically, in daily life LDS present as unpretentious and loathe to encourage any type of spiritual pride. 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

The topic of godhood is fascinating. Even from an Evangelical/Pentecostal perspective, the belief that we shall live for eternity, that we shall rule and reign with Christ, that we are becoming holy (progressive sanctification for theology buffs) all leads me to believe that we have undersold and undertaught the spiritual growth we are supposed to embrace. My guess is that those Evangelicals (and Fundamentalists) who come here to debate may desire to emphasize differences, but I fear we lose something in doing so. Ironically, in daily life LDS present as unpretentious and loathe to encourage any type of spiritual pride. 

As always, I am greatly impressed with your input @prisonchaplain .  At the same time, I have to admire someone like @little Nipper that is willing to post their alternate ideas on a forum stacked with those firmly convinced otherwise.  I hope they are up to the challenge and open to discussion.  I am a little concerned that their handel does not link when I include it.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

At the same time, I have to admire someone like @little Nipper that is willing to post their alternate ideas on a forum stacked with those firmly convinced otherwise.  I hope they are up to the challenge and open to discussion.  I am a little concerned that their handel does not link when I include it.

They last visited 4 hours ago. Sometimes tagging user names can be weird, especially when they have spaces in them, and especially in a mobile browser.

Anyway, I too hope they stay. 

[Traveler]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

They last visited 4 hours ago. Sometimes tagging user names can be weird, especially when they have spaces in them, and especially in a mobile browser.

Anyway, I too hope they stay. 

What is the secret for tagging a user when there is a space - usually several names show up before the tag is complete so a selection can be made.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

30 minutes ago, Traveler said:

What is the secret for tagging a user when there is a space

You can only do it if their name is high enough on the list to select.  For some reason, a space stops filtering the list.  But apparently it's a moot point - Little Nipper was banned.

 

[Traveler]

Since there was a criticism concerning the doctrine of exaltation (the greatest blessing for mankind to become one with G-d – an heir of all the Father has – which we LDS believe is a being like unto G-d in his image and likeness), I wanted to address the strawman argument that becoming like G-d was the downfall or great sin of Lucifer (Satan).    The reason this is a strawman argument is that Lucifer never intended to be one with G-d but rather intended to remove G-d from heaven via a coup.   All that Satan desired was the power and Glory of the Father.   It is obvious that Satan wanted to eliminate love, compassion, mercy and forgiveness (atonement) as an intent or characteristic of G-d. 

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

On 6/30/2024 at 7:36 PM, zil2 said:

Little Nipper was banned

Shocker

[Carborendum]

17 hours ago, Traveler said:

Lucifer never intended to be one with G-d but rather intended to remove G-d from heaven via a coup.   All that Satan desired was the power and Glory of the Father.   It is obvious that Satan wanted to eliminate love, compassion, mercy and forgiveness (atonement) as an intent or characteristic of G-d. 

This is really the great sin of mankind as well.

We all "want" a particular result.  But we do two things that twist that desire into sin.

1. We aren't willing to do the things necessary to obtain that goal.  We always want a shortcut. e.g. lotteries.

2. We are expecting a convolution of the natural order of things in order for the universe to revolve around us, rather than figuring out how we need to sacrifice to obtain such things in order and righteousness.