The Godhead in Christ's life

[askandanswer]

Was there ever a time in the life of Christ when at least one member of the Godhead was not present?

[NeuroTypical]

Since He's one of 'em, it would be sort of hard for Him to be there without Him present...

[Vort]

By definition, I venture the answer is "no".

[ZealoulyStriving]

Working off the teaching that the Holy Ghost is received AFTER baptism and the Holy Ghost descended upon Jesus in the form of  dove AFTER His baptism, I suppose it's conceivable that He didn't have the fulness of the Holy Ghost BEFORE His baptism in the same way we don't until we are baptized.

 

[askandanswer]

I came to the same conclusion as  @Vort and @NeuroTypical. And that led me to ponder how it can be said that as part of the atonement, Christ endured all and more that any mortal can, will, or has ever been called on to endure because all unbaptised mortals, and probably, occasionally, some baptised mortals, live without the influence or presence of any member of the Godhead in their lives. I’ve no doubt that Christ did descend below all, but I can’t see how He might have gone through the experience that is the ordinary condition of most mortals in not having a member of the Godhead present in their lives.

My lack of understanding of this experience in no way reduces the reality of it, it just raises, what is for the moment, a question to think about.

[Maverick]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Was there ever a time in the life of Christ when at least one member of the Godhead was not present?

Matthew and Mark both record the following statement by Jesus Christ while he hung suffering on the cross:

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I believe this shows that his Father in Heaven had left him to suffer alone without his support, at least for this part of the atonement. 

 

[laronius]

I second what @Maverick said. I think part of the atonement required Jesus to endure the suffering in part without any external support. That's why he could make the claim "I have tread the winepress alone." Some general authorities have expressed similar opinions.

I have always liked this explanation by Jeffrey R Holland: "Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” 16 Matthew 27:46 emphasis added.]

The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour … is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”? 17 John 16:32 8:29

With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone."

Edited April 14 by laronius

[CV75]

11 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I came to the same conclusion as  @Vort and @NeuroTypical. And that led me to ponder how it can be said that as part of the atonement, Christ endured all and more that any mortal can, will, or has ever been called on to endure because all unbaptised mortals, and probably, occasionally, some baptised mortals, live without the influence or presence of any member of the Godhead in their lives. I’ve no doubt that Christ did descend below all, but I can’t see how He might have gone through the experience that is the ordinary condition of most mortals in not having a member of the Godhead present in their lives.

My lack of understanding of this experience in no way reduces the reality of it, it just raises, what is for the moment, a question to think about.

All unbaptized mortals live with the influence of the light of Christ in their lives, even it is only to remain organized as a soul until death. Some are not accountable and some reject Hos light to the degree they are able, but none can sink below the reach of His light. As the source of that light, I can see how He could descend below all things and still maintain His existence, and the lowest mortal condition is still sustained by His light.

Jesus' mission was in covenant with the Godhead, so as unique and independent as His role may have been, it was still part of the larger plan, agreement and mutual trust for fulfillment. The Father and the Holy Ghost were aware of what was going on in His mission, as completely forsaken as He may have felt for the sake of descending below all things. Jesus may have felt forsaken, but I do not think He forgot or abandoned the Godhead and it that sense it remained with Him.

[ZealoulyStriving]

A major reason that Jesus uttered those words was to point them to David's lament in Psalm 22, which if they recalled to mind would've shown them it was prophetic of what was happening right before their very eyes.